[Godstud]

Read for a change. You're good at making lame and ignorant comment, but not good at making an argument.

Nike’s Colin Kaepernick ad sparked a boycott — and earned $6 billion for Nike
The Kaepernick “gamble” has turned into a big win.
https://www.vox.com/2018/9/24/17895704/ ... -6-billion

[BigSteve]

Read for a change. You're good at making lame and ignorant comment, but not good at making an argument.

Nike’s Colin Kaepernick ad sparked a boycott — and earned $6 billion for Nike
The Kaepernick “gamble” has turned into a big win.
https://www.vox.com/2018/9/24/17895704/ ... -6-billion

All that shows is that the "boycott" didn't have the desired effect (boycotts rarely do). Nike is always going to make money. There's nothing there that shows the $6 billion is the direct result of the Kaepernick controversy. All if demonstrates is that the controversy didn't keep Nike from earning money they probably would've earned anyway.

You're presenting this as if they realized an additional $6 billion on top of anything else they would've earned within that same time frame, and that's just not the case...

[Godstud]

You've provided ZERO evidence that this has hurt Nike in any way, however, so your argument is completely unsupported, @BigSteve.

[BigSteve]

You've provided ZERO evidence that this has hurt Nike in any way, however, so your argument is completely unsupported, @BigSteve.

I simply questioned the decision making process.

You're the one making unsubstantiated claims about how much Kaepernick made for Nike. You can try to dodge that fact all you want, but you won't. You'll be a failure at that, too...

[Drlee]

I am a vet and I support what Kaepernick is doing.

Pro tip. I am a vet who served during a couple of wars and a whole shit load of adventures. I have absolutely no claim to more patriotism than anyone else. There are plenty of great patriots who do not serve. In fact, the military can't take all who want to serve are are actually quite selective.

I honor the sacrifice of my fellow veterans. At the same time I am grateful to my country for giving me the great pension I have earned and the best health care in the country. If everyone were to have that same health care I would not feel diminished in any way.

Taking the (fake because she did not actually do it) Betsy Ross flag off of shoes is my preference. I am offended by any American Flag theme merchandise created just to turn a profit.

[BigSteve]

I am a vet and I support what Kaepernick is doing.

Pro tip. I am a vet who served during a couple of wars and a whole shit load of adventures. I have absolutely no claim to more patriotism than anyone else. There are plenty of great patriots who do not serve. In fact, the military can't take all who want to serve are are actually quite selective.

I honor the sacrifice of my fellow veterans. At the same time I am grateful to my country for giving me the great pension I have earned and the best health care in the country. If everyone were to have that same health care I would not feel diminished in any way.

Taking the (fake because she did not actually do it) Betsy Ross flag off of shoes is my preference. I am offended by any American Flag theme merchandise created just to turn a profit.

I'm a Veteran and I don't support what he's doing. I don't know of many Vets who do, and I personally don't know a single one who does.

This has nothing to do with your service or your "adventures" or your health care. It has to do with a ridiculous decision by a corporation and a wonderful decision by a State Governor...

[Kaiserschmarrn]

I am a vet and I support what Kaepernick is doing.

You support his intervening based on fake outrage?

I am offended by any American Flag theme merchandise created just to turn a profit.

You should oppose Kaepernick then. He's trying to make a profit by associating a flag that was shown at Obama's inauguration with racism.

[Politics_Observer]

@Kaiserschmarrn

I don't know what flags were shown at Obama's inauguration but Kapernick has a right to his own opinion in regards to the original 13 colonies flag as an African American citizen of the US. He might feel differently than how I or others would feel. I am personally against the Confederate flag and support taking down Confederate symbols. However, out of respect for our African American citizens if they dislike the 13 colonies flag because slavery existed at the time that flag was made, I can understand that. Any American flag design should include input from our African American citizens and not just ONLY white people. It's fair and it affords equal status to African American citizens of the United States. If you exclude input from African American citizens from the input of everybody else in the country of any flag design, then you are just continuing the divisiveness of the country which only serves to weaken the country.

[Unthinking Majority]

Nike seem to know who its market is.

Dumb anti-American idiot fucks it seems.

[Politics_Observer]

@Unthinking Majority

Do try to bear in mind that the US has had a history of slavery and it had long term effects that are still felt in the US today. Slavery was a monstrous institution over here. Australia is not perfect either in the way it treated the aborigines and the pommies enslaved them too. So, their is quite a history of white supremacy in Australia too. It's an issue it seems that the US has not tackled and I suspect Australia has not fully tackled either.

[Godstud]

@Unthinking Majority What's anti-American about not liking the old flag, that is no longer used, and is sort of synonymous with slavery?

Name-calling isn't an argument. You'd think you guys would know that by now.

Ad hominem, short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

You don't have to agree with Nike's marketing, but they seem to be pretty successful at finding who is consuming their product and appealing to them, regardless of your feelings.

It's an issue it seems that the US has not tackled and I suspect Australia has not fully tackled either.

QFT. See the Mississippi flag... for an example.

[Politics_Observer]

@Godstud

Yup! Just about everywhere you go in the US their is a big problem with racism. It's in the south but also everywhere in the US.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

@Kaiserschmarrn

I don't know what flags were shown at Obama's inauguration

Here it is in all its glory.



From: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/04/opin ... erica.html

but Kapernick has a right to his own opinion in regards to the original 13 colonies flag as an African American citizen of the US. He might feel differently than how I or others would feel. I am personally against the Confederate flag and support taking down Confederate symbols. However, out of respect for our African American citizens if they dislike the 13 colonies flag because slavery existed at the time that flag was made, I can understand that. Any American flag design should include input from our African American citizens and not just ONLY white people. It's fair and it affords equal status to African American citizens of the United States. If you exclude input from African American citizens from the input of everybody else in the country of any flag design, then you are just continuing the divisiveness of the country.

Of course Kaepernick is entitled to his opinion, but that doesn't change the fact that he's trying to advance himself and earn money with it.

As far as I'm concerned, the left has completely lost any perspective. No critical distance or appreciation for the historical context when it comes to their own countries and history, and it's quite a stark contrast to how non-western countries and their history are assessed.

I'm not American or an expert on American history, but here's what I'm reading about it from a seemingly measured source:

Kaepernick may not be aware that the flag was the first in a line of U.S. flags flying from the U.S. Capitol above the Inauguration of the first African-American President of the United States, Barack Obama. It was the first in the line of U.S. Flags because it is the first recognized flag of the United States of America, not the United States of Slavery.

The flag, featuring 13 stars in a circle, was the same flag flown in battles for American Independence under the direction of General George Washington, before he became the nation’s first president.

In June of 1777, the flag’s design was formally codified by the Continental Congress who had passed a resolution calling for the national flag to consist of 13 stripes and stars to be “white in a blue field, representing a new constellation.”

What it didn’t say, is that it was meant to symbolize slavery and white supremacy. The United States, which the “Betsy Ross” flag represented, was founded to be Independent from the United Kingdom and British rule and not for the sake of slavery.

[Unthinking Majority]

Here it is in all its glory.
As far as I'm concerned, the left has completely lost any perspective. No critical distance or appreciation for the historical context when it comes to their own countries and history, and it's quite a stark contrast to how non-western countries and their history are assessed.

EXACTLY! Not all the left, just the modern progressives.

Kaeperschmuck doesn't acknowledge that it was his fellow Africans who raided villages capturing and enslaving other Africans and sold them to the white slaver traders.

[Politics_Observer]

@Kaiserschmarrn

You make a fair argument but that doesn't change the fact that slavery existed at the time the 13 colonies declared it's independence from England. Plus, no blacks at the time and a century or two afterward had any input into the design of the flag. They were never afforded a voice or equal status with whites who owned, legislated and controlled much of the country. So, it would only be fair, right and just that African Americans be given a voice in the design of the American flag given that their slave labor built much of the US anyway during that time.

[Godstud]

Kaeperschmuck doesn't acknowledge that it was his fellow Africans who raided villages capturing and enslaving other Africans and sold them to the white slaver traders.

Name-calling and bringing up something totally irrelevant to American slavery, is not an argument.

No critical distance or appreciation for the historical context when it comes to their own countries and history, and it's quite a stark contrast to how non-western countries and their history are assessed.

Times change, and many of these things belong in history, and perpetuating them doesn't help anyone. I expect right-wing conservatives to get a little uncomfortable with these changes. Change is often hard for many people.

I see no problem with Kaepernick's actions. Nike is free to do, or not do, what they please.

[Politics_Observer]

@Godstud @Unthinking Majority @Kaiserschmarrn

Times change, and many of these things belong in history, and perpetuating them doesn't help anyone. I expect right-wing conservatives to get a little uncomfortable with these changes. Change is often hard for many people.

I see no problem with Kaepernick's actions. Nike is free to do, or not do, what they please.

I agree with Godstud. Change is part of life and inevitable. You either embrace change or get quickly left behind. It's just the reality of things. Much of the explosion of white supremacy here in the US comes with this fear of whites of "we will be replaced." But no amount of trying to cling on to power is going to change the fact that eventually whites will be in the minority and that's just a fact of life. And the quicker you recognize that and accept it and embrace change and adapt to it, the better off you will be. Progress waits for no one and it's either get with the program or get left behind. America is changing and today's America is not the same America of 1776. And today's America won't be the same America of 2050.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

EXACTLY! Not all the left, just the modern progressives.

Kaeperschmuck doesn't acknowledge that it was his fellow Africans who raided villages capturing and enslaving other Africans and sold them to the white slaver traders.

Yes, it's not all of the left, but an increasing share and the remainder is often cowardly quiet, equivocates or chooses to defend insane progressive propositions in response to a reaction from the right.

The America left has seen a massive and unprecedented change in perception with regard to all "progressive" issues recently, e.g.


Source

@Kaiserschmarrn
You make a fair argument but that doesn't change the fact that slavery existed at the time the 13 colonies declared it's independence from England. Plus, no blacks at the time and a century or two afterward had any input into the design of the flag. They were never afforded a voice or equal status with whites who owned, legislated and controlled much of the country. So, it would only be fair, right and just that African Americans be given a voice in the design of the American flag given that their slave labor built much of the US anyway.

With respect, you guys are quite close to sanitising discourse and imagery in a way that the left has always been opposed to and was instrumental in dismantling. I might be wrong, but my gut feeling is that this kind of moralising is something the left will come to regret. There are strong human instincts at work and they are present across the political spectrum.

I know there is a relatively new kind of scholarship that posits that slave labour was important in America's ascent and prosperity, but they are wrong. If you are interested in an overview of the arguments of the other side, see this paper.

Times change, and many of these things belong in history, and perpetuating them doesn't help anyone. I expect right-wing conservatives to get a little uncomfortable with these changes. Change is often hard for many people.

I'll make a mental note for the future when things change in a direction you don't like to be equally smug in response to you.

I see no problem with Kaepernick's actions. Nike is free to do, or not do, what they please.

I would categorise you under those who quite regularly rise in defence of indefensible positions in response to a right-wing reaction.

[Godstud]

Yes, @Kaiserschmarrn, perceptions do change, but they aren't always accurate, especially given how the perception of crime rates in the US is perceived as being higher, when it's quite the reverse.

With respect, you guys are quite close to sanitising discourse and imagery in a way that the left has always been opposed to and was instrumental in dismantling. I might be wrong, but my gut feeling is that this kind of moralising is something the left will come to regret.

If anything, I think the opposite. I think it will be the right-wing that comes to regret their support of the status quo. in time... We'll see.

I think perpetuating many thing is part of the problem, and only now are people starting to act on it. It's overdue.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Yes, @Kaiserschmarrn, perceptions do change, but they aren't always accurate, especially given how the perception of crime rates in the US is perceived as being higher, when it's quite the reverse.

Progressives are in a moral panic about all kinds of discrimination.