Turkey expelled from F-35 program - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15019290
AlJazzera wrote:US expels Turkey from F-35 fighter jet programme
The move comes after Ankara began accepting delivery of Russia's S-400 air defence system last week.

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The United States said on Wednesday that it was removing Turkey from the F-35 fighter jet programme, a move that had been long threatened and expected after Ankara began accepting delivery of an advanced Russian missile defence system last week.

The first parts of the S-400 air defence system were flown to the Murted military airbase northwest of Ankara on Friday, sealing Turkey's deal with Russia, which Washington had struggled for months to prevent.

"The US and other F-35 partners are aligned in this decision to suspend Turkey from the programme and initiate the process to formally remove Turkey from the programme," said Ellen Lord, the undersecretary of defence for acquisition and sustainment at the Pentagon.

Turkey's foreign ministry said the move was unfair and could affect relations between the two countries.

"We invite the United States to return from this mistake which would open irreparable wounds in strategic relations," the ministry said after the Pentagon's announcement.

Lord said moving the supply chain for the advanced fighter jet would cost the US between $500m and $600m in non-recurring engineering costs.

Turkey makes more than 900 parts of the F-35, she said, adding the supply chain would transition from Turkish to mainly US factories as Turkish suppliers are removed.

"Turkey will certainly and regrettably lose jobs and future economic opportunities from this decision," Lord said. "It will no longer receive more than nine billion dollars in projected work share related to the F-35 over the life of the programme."

Earlier on Wednesday, the White House said in a statement that Turkey's decision to buy the Russian S-400 air defence system "renders its continued involvement with the F-35 impossible".

"The F-35 cannot coexist with a Russian intelligence-collection platform that will be used to learn about its advanced capabilities," the White House statement said, referring to the S-400 air defence system as a means for Russia to probe US capabilities.

The White House, however, sought to downplay the effects of the decision on the US relationship with Turkey, saying that Washington still "greatly values" its strategic relationship with Ankara.

US President Donald Trump announced on Tuesday that the S-400 purchase means Turkey will not be allowed to buy any F-35 planes. But he also declined to criticise Turkey's acquisition of the Russian defence system, saying it's a complex situation" and Ankara was forced into the move by his predecessor Barack Obama.

Economic sanctions?
Yet to be announced is whether the US will impose economic sanctions on Turkey for its decision to buy the S-400 system. Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has previously said he did not believe Washington would impose sanctions over the issue since the two countries are "strategic allies".

Trump on Tuesday signalled a reluctance to punish Turkey with major sanctions over its acquisition.

"It's a very tough situation that they're in. And it's a very tough situation that we've been placed in the United States," Trump told reporters during a Cabinet meeting at the White House.

"With all of that being said, we're working through it. We'll see what happens, but it's not really fair," he added, again appearing to place blame on the Obama administration for failing to sell the US's best alternative to the Russian S-400s - Patriot missiles.

The break with Turkey over its purchase of a Russian weapon system is symptomatic of a deeper division between Ankara and its Western allies and partners.

Army Secretary Mark Esper, Trump's nominee to become secretary of defence, told his Senate confirmation hearing on Tuesday he is troubled by Turkey's decision to defy the US on the S-400, suggesting that it reveals a broader strategic problem.

"It is very disheartening to see how they have drifted over the past several years," Esper said.

Deep division
Turkey has said that it was not given favourable terms to buy the American alternative to the Russian S-400 air defence system. The White House, however, said in its statement on Wednesday that Turkey had plenty of chances to buy the US Patriot system.

"This administration has made multiple offers to move Turkey to the front of the line to receive the US Patriot air defence system," it said.

Turkey initially sought in 2009 to buy the US Patriot missile defence system, and a $7.8bn deal was tentatively approved by the Obama administration.

But Washington baulked when Ankara, seeking to boost its own technology base, insisted on Turkey producing some of the system components itself as part of the deal.

Ankara first turned to China and then to Russia for the system.

This week, Erdogan hailed the first S-400 delivery and said the next step was to jointly produce the system.

"We have begun to receive our S-400s. Some said, 'they cannot buy them '... God willing the final part of this (delivery) will be in April 2020," Erdogan said.

The ongoing dispute between the countries with the two largest armies in NATO marks a deep division in the Western military alliance, which was forged after World War II to counter Moscow's military power.
#15019294
So NATO is falling apart. Good news.
Perhaps Europeans (i.e. EU specifically) can stop being American Vassals and start using their brains.

Regarding the F-35.
Good, if Turkey kept along it'd be even more dependent on the US for its equipment and would gradually lose its sovereignty to it; It's a hard path the path for self-sufficiency and growth, but it's worth taking.
Turkey should spend the money on its own advanced 5th generation jets (e.g. TF-X) instead. It's the only possible way for Turkey to regain its position as a regional power for the balance of powers in the middle east to be reset and restored.

Ofcourse it needs its own air defense system as well, but Russia is far less pushy and encroaching than the US.
#15019299
Palmyrene wrote:
@noemon

How has the EU been treating Greece and Eastern Europe.


Please make a new thread about what you mean and I will be happy to participate. Cheers.
#15021907
This is good news. Erdogan doesn't really want to be in NATO anyway, it seems. I would expect that they will eventually withdraw from NATO, but probably not immediately. Why else would Turkey need Russian-made air defense systems anyway?

It will be interesting to see what the US does with respect to Incirlik. Will they seek a new airbase somewhere else in the region?
#15021926
@Zionist Nationalist

NATO won't kick out Turkey it makes no strategic sense.

NATO is specifically a defense organization meant to limit the military influence of foreign actors in member states. If Turkey gets kicked out of NATO, Russia will see this as leeway to perform military operations there. At worst they'd occupy it which would be a disaster for Europe too as it gives Russia effective control of the Black Sea.
#15021928
anasawad wrote:In which regards ?


In terms on WTF is going on there. I know what they're doing in Syria but I don't know why and I want their real intentions not their "Muslim solidarity" propaganda.

Given that you work around Eastern Europe (which Turkey has been orienting it's influence around) maybe you have some insider perspective on things.
#15021932
Palmyrene wrote:@Zionist Nationalist

NATO won't kick out Turkey it makes no strategic sense.

NATO is specifically a defense organization meant to limit the military influence of foreign actors in member states. If Turkey gets kicked out of NATO, Russia will see this as leeway to perform military operations there. At worst they'd occupy it which would be a disaster for Europe too as it gives Russia effective control of the Black Sea.


Russia dont have the ability to occupy Turkey maybe just some parts of it but it makes no sense for Russia to attack Turkey anyway
#15021934
Zionist Nationalist wrote:Russia dont have the ability to occupy Turkey maybe just some parts of it but it makes no sense for Russia to attack Turkey anyway


Would you want to take that risk over something as asinine as xenophobia?

It's because of Istanbul and the coast of Northern Turkey. Istanbul is a key geographic region for trade and is still important today.

Furthermore, it gives Russia access to the Mediterranean which is something they been wanting for decades (this is why Russia's acquisition of a Syrian port is so important to them).

The coast of Northern Turkey is obvious. It gives them control over the Black Sea and allows them to expand easier into Eastern Europe and Greece.
#15021949
blackjack21 wrote:Why else would Turkey need Russian-made air defense systems anyway?

Because Obama Administration declined sales and technology transfer to Turkey. Russians accepted and Erdogan made a deal.
Bloomberg wrote:The U.S. has sought to sell Ankara the Patriot air-defense missile since at least 2013, but Erdogan has insisted it come with a transfer of technology so that Turkey can develop and build its own missiles. The Obama administration declined.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rom-russia
.
You don't even mention about THAAD system. You sold it to India. Trump used his executive power to okay selling Patriot system (inferior compared to THAAD) but US Congress blocking it.

Trump on the issue:
Bloomberg wrote:"Obama Treated Erdogan Unfairly on Patriot Missile. They wouldn’t let him buy the missile he wanted to buy, which was the Patriot. You have to treat people fairly. And I don’t think he was treated fairly".

"He’s paid a tremendous amount of money upfront to Lockheed. And now they’re saying he’s using the S-400 system, which is incompatible with our system, and if you use the S-400 system, Russia and other people can gain access to the genius of the F-35. So it’s a mess. And honestly, it’s not really Erdogan’s fault".
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rom-russia
#15021957
Palmyrene wrote:Would you want to take that risk over something as asinine as xenophobia?

It's because of Istanbul and the coast of Northern Turkey. Istanbul is a key geographic region for trade and is still important today.

Furthermore, it gives Russia access to the Mediterranean which is something they been wanting for decades (this is why Russia's acquisition of a Syrian port is so important to them).

The coast of Northern Turkey is obvious. It gives them control over the Black Sea and allows them to expand easier into Eastern Europe and Greece.



nowadays you cant just go and attack a country for no reason at all
Russia cannot beat Turkish army without using nukes Turkish geography will make it extremely difficult for any invasion force
it makes no sense to do that not from international or internal public (Both International and Russian public will not accept this)
and makes no sense from economical point of view
#15021958
The Trump administration's ejection of Turkey from the F-35 program is not a one-off. Deepening the Russo-Turkish defense partnership will result in the termination of Turkey's NATO membership in the end. Russia is winning another client state in the Middle East by driving a wedge between the United States and Turkey.


Erdogan’s government has so far kept its fighter procurement plans close to its vest, perhaps owing to an embarrassment of riches. In addition to the Su-35, Turkey’s current crop of prospective import options-- assuming no further western sanctions-- include the Eurofighter Typhoon and Sweden’s Saab JAS 39 Gripen. But the Su-35’s most salient competition comes from Turkey itself, in the form of Ankara’s long-running ambition to produce its own indigenous fifth-generation, the “TF-X” fighter. The TF-X project enjoys widespread political support throughout the Turkish security establishment but is being stymied by a prohibitively expensive price tag and ongoing disputes with a British component supplier. Finally, the Turkish defense sector is well versed in leveraging Russia and the west against one another in pursuit of favorable import terms; it is relatively unlikely, but not impossible as a long-term prospect, for Ankara to import US fighters if it reconciles with Washington over the coming decade and reaffirms its commitment to NATO’s common defense infrastructure.

If NATO can dismiss the S-400 deal as an unfortunate one-off affair, then a Su-35 import contract would confirm what some western analysts maintain to be a long-term reorientation in Turkish defense priorities. The Russian security establishment understands and seeks to exploit the fact that mere public discussion of Turkey’s Su-35 purchase bears a disruptive influence on US-Turkish relations, notes military expert Alexander Perendzhiev. Nevertheless, the Kremlin hopes to utilize the mutual goodwill generated by the S-400 deal to score more than just a moral victory.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... hter-69267
#15021959
Zionist Nationalist wrote:nowadays you cant just go and attack a country for no reason at all


They'll make one up and Russia will use Israel's acquisition of Golan Heights as an excuse to take territory.

Russia cannot beat Turkish army without using nukes Turkish geography will make it extremely difficult for any invasion force
it makes no sense to do that not from international or internal public (Both International and Russian public will not accept this)
and makes no sense from economical point of view


What geography? Most of Anatolia's mountains are away from the coast and Istanbul is it's own beast entirely.

Also if the Russian and international public can accept Crimea and Golan Heights they can accept this.
#15021963
Zionist Nationalist wrote:nowadays you cant just go and attack a country for no reason at all
Russia cannot beat Turkish army without using nukes Turkish geography will make it extremely difficult for any invasion force
it makes no sense to do that not from international or internal public (Both International and Russian public will not accept this)
and makes no sense from economical point of view


Whether Russia is a threat to Turkey is irrelevant (they could be I suspect). Kicking out Turkey from NATO makes no strategic sense to the west. Not only would that give the chance for Turkey ally with Russia, it happens to be in a key geographical location in the ME. It is also neighbours to the rest of Europe. Hence why the West accepts Erdogans bollocks as they need him more than he needs them.
#15021964
B0ycey wrote:Whether Russia is a threat to Turkey is irrelevant (they could be I suspect). Kicking out Turkey from NATO makes no strategic sense to the west. Not only would that give the chance for Turkey ally with Russia, it happens to be in a key geographical location in the ME. It is also neighbours to the rest of Europe. Hence why the West accepts Erdogans bollocks as they need him more than he needs them.


Turkey is like a Trojan horse
I dont think at this point any other members trust Turkey they just dont want it to become part of the anti western block so they will keep them as long as possible or at least as long as Turkey wont do anything drastic or will just ragequit one day


Palmyrene wrote:They'll make one up and Russia will use Israel's acquisition of Golan Heights as an excuse to take territory.



What geography? Most of Anatolia's mountains are away from the coast and Istanbul is it's own beast entirely.

Also if the Russian and international public can accept Crimea and Golan Heights they can accept this.


The Anatolian mountains give turkey numerous advantages like AA defences also its completely unrealistic for Russia to fight Turkey
Ukraine will be tough for them let alone Turkey
I dont see it ever happening
#15021967
Zionist Nationalist wrote:Turkey is like a Trojan horse
I dont think at this point any other members trust Turkey they just dont want it to become part of the anti western block so they will keep them as long as possible or at least as long as Turkey wont do anything drastic or will just ragequit one day


And geography means nothing?

Turkey have done many drastic things yet still in NATO. Perhaps if the West stopped intervening in the ME, Turkey's geography wouldnt be so important.

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