Turkey & Libya agree to split Greek territory, Libya invites Turkey to send military - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15055233
Erdogan shows off new map drawn between himself and Libya's President. The "deal" dubbed as a Memorandum of Understanding(MOU) has been rejected by the Libyan Parliament and a letter has been sent to the UN by Libya's parliament declaring the MOU "null & void".

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The most glaring thing in this irredentist Turkish map is that Turkish and Libyan borders appear to extend hundreds of miles away from their shore while Crete's and Rhodes' border appear to extend none at all. Curious you might think, while this has been official Turkish policy for some decades. Turkey argues that Greek islands should not have a continental shelf. That is Greek islands do not deserve to be counted as land borders and that all the waters around Greek islands should belong to Turkey. This has been the official Turkish position since at least the 80's and while this kind of joke could only be laughed at, now Turkey found a desperate partner in the form of the current President of Libya to give her the crook's respite. Erdogan seems totally unfazed by Libya's parliament to declare his deal null & void and has pledged to send gunboats and military to "defend Libya's borders south of Crete". A less glaring thing that is not as noticeable to non-Greek people is that this map actually includes inhabited Greek islands, the islands are small enough to not appear in the map at its current resolution but rest assured they are actually there. Check to see where Kastellorizo actually is for example.

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#15055247
@noemon
Erdogan's madness well ilustrated, thank you.
He also plays dangerous games with other countries.
Do you think this is more than bluster, could it lead to military actions ?

Also thanks for teaching me a new word in the English language, irredentist (a member of a party in any country advocating the acquisition of some region included in another country by reason of cultural, historical, ethnic, racial, or other ties) .

Did you copy that from somewhere or did you really know that word ? :D
I am curious because for both of us, English is not the native language.
#15055248
Irredentist/ism is a word I used to use quite often in my early days here. I was curiously fascinated by this word when I first learnt it as well.

I think Erdogan has moved ahead at another totally new phase of escalating tensions with Greece while Turkish media, sources, "advisors" et al are all confirming that Erdogan is absolutely determined to performing gunboat diplomacy south of Crete & south of Kastellorizo. Last time Turkey decided to send drills and gunboats in Greece it was in 1987 and at the time the PASOK government responded with unwavering military resolve, sending a huge portion of the fleet & army at the Gates of Istanbul forcing the Turks back into the Straits with severe humiliation for them. It is expected that the Conservative government of today will at least match the resolve of the previous Social Democratic Government.
#15055270
Ter wrote:Erdogan's madness well ilustrated, thank you.

Erdogan seems to think that we are bunch of pathetic, cowardly cucks.

How ever far from being an indication of madness, his view on this seems balanced fair, wise and well considered.
#15055274
noemon wrote:Irredentist/ism is a word I used to use quite often in my early days here. I was curiously fascinated by this word when I first learnt it as well.

It's not just the Greeks who have a word for it. :excited:
#15055315
Ter wrote:So Mr Rich, are you trolling or do you in any way mean what you just posted ?
Have you looked at the maps posted in the OP ?

I did mean what I just posted. I would be more than happy to be proved wrong, but I don't expect to be.
#15055326
Ter wrote:So Mr Rich, are you trolling or do you in any way mean what you just posted ?
Have you looked at the maps posted in the OP ?

I suspect that Rich is suggesting that Mr. Erdogan is merely playing the Great Game, and playing it rather well.
#15055361
Zionist Nationalist wrote:Thts what the EU have become
and the US dont give


How then do you explain that the mighty US of A just packed up to run away from Erdogan's Islamist thugs in Syria?

As to the EU, fortunately, EU members don't have any irridentist claims on each other.

Erdogan will play his neo-Ottoman games until he falls flat on his face. There is no way that he can get away with this claim for a maritime zone. It's joke.

Potemkin wrote:I suspect that Rich is suggesting that Mr. Erdogan is merely playing the Great Game, and playing it rather well.


No he isn't. He is antagonizing almost everybody. At this stage, Turkey's only ally is Pakistan. He is turning Turkey into an international pariah.

I don't understand why people are so fascinated by mad autocrats like Erdogan, Trump, Putin et al. these days. Is it the increased CO2 content in the atmosphere that impedes people's ability to think?
#15055366
Patrickov wrote:Given that Greece has not been very militarily successful for the past century (since 1922, to be precise), they probably should team up with Israel or whoever strong and possibly anti-Turk in the area to save themselves from (another?) Turkish conquest.


For the record 1922 was a military defeat for Greece rather than a success. Though it was a spirited effort that resulted to a defeat due to attrition (.ie lack of money, foods and weapons after doing battle for 2 decades without stop) rather than outright defeat in battle.

Greece however has a very successful & proud modern warfare history that is very interesting to read if you are into this sort of thing with a lot of civil wars as well, more than any other country for the time span in fact. Greece has never lost territory to anyone since becoming independent in the past 200 years even when she has officially lost the war like in 1922 & 1898, she has lost some of the gains made during the war but never territory she possessed before the war. Greece has 2 sub-ethnic groups, the Maniots and the Souliots that are pure martial cultures. Communities that raise soldiers for many many generations. Such groups are exceptional in what they do and incredibly efficient to degrees that the average modern person cannot really comprehend.

Israel is indeed an ally of Greece and Cyprus though I highly doubt anyone in Greece actually relies on that military partnership in the event of war between Greece & Turkey. And there are a lot of reasons why one cannot rely on Israel. a) It has its own massive military problems having plenty of enemies already. b) Israel has been a Turkish ally far more consistently than it has been a Greek ally. c) Israel is understood by a lot of people including yourself to be some kind of military superpower but a closer examination of the actual facts shows otherwise. Israel for example has never fought an enemy from a real country like Italy, Germany, Russia, the UK, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia and Turkey(Ottoman Empire). Theses are countries that Greece has given battle to in the past 100 years and has won several engagements against these major powers(you might laugh with me including Bulgaria in the list but she has been a huge foe and again if you read her modern military history you will be quite surprised, thankfully for us she just always picked the wrong side). Hitler was so astounded by Greek military prowess that he uniquely permitted all Greek officers to keep their weapons after defeating them in battle in recognition of their valiance and courage. Churchill, Eden, Stalin, Roosevelt, De Gaulle all have paid the ultimate tribute to Greece by calling her the real reason the Axis was defeated. Greece brought Italy, Mussolini and his famous Centaurs to their knees and conquered their Albanian colony. The one & only Axis territory conquered by an Ally in 1941. 1940-1943 being the time period the Axis was unstoppable bar this hiccup in Greece that resulted to the total annihilation of the German elite paratroopers in Crete. Thee record tells us that Greece was part of the reason the Central Powers lost the war in WW1. It was the entry of Greece against Bulgaria & Germany in WW1 that tipped the scales for the Entente in the then stable Macedonian front that led to the total collapse of Bulgaria and the German and Austrian capitulation immediately afterwards as it opened a clear way to Vienna. Greece has beaten the Ottoman Empire in thousands of engagements. Israel on the other hand has only had to deal with the broken down former colonies of these countries, rather than these countries themselves. Greece has never lost a war or battle when allied with either Serbia or Bulgaria and has spent the better part of the past few decades developing these relationships as Greece was at war with both countries during and after WW2. These relationships have been developed at a very deep level at this moment as it is an existential issue and that is why I am not particularly worried about the prospect of war with Turkey. Turkey is aware of all these details and will not risk to get humiliated by Greece & Serbia or Bulgaria for example. What worries me however is Europe & the US of course. You may not realise this but Germany, the UK, the US and others have traditionally been on the side of Turkey against Greece in the most recent history say from the 60's onwards. How do you think the Cyprus debacle took place in 1974?* The emboldening of Erdogan is not something that fell from the sky, he has been given this rope by these countries in ways that are far more direct than you imagine. I am telling you this and keep it well in your mind, these countries are not simple tacit supporters of Erdogan because of immigrants or because they have no other options, they are pro-active allies of Turkey that feed his hand and this is a very dangerous game being played here because Erdogan does not need war to achieve his aims, he just needs the tacit support of these 3 countries playing along bad cop good cop with him to sap away Greek national rights in the Aegean. Consider this, where are the news about these developments? Why is the western press not talking about this matter? This "deal" took place about a week ago and the official request for troops from Libya came 3 days ago. Have you seen anything anywhere? Greek borders are also EU borders, they are also NATO borders, where is the outrage for these truly outrageous acts on the part of Turkey and Libya?

*The Cyprus debacle would tell you anything you need to know about the betrayal of the Americans & the British. The democratic government of Greece had 10000 troops stationed in the island capable of defending the island from any threat. The Americans and Brits were begging, requesting, ordering, threatening Greece to remove her troops for several years and incapable of fighting the leftist government(who put the troops there) "Union of Centre" in the elections they brought a Coup in Greece with an official CIA agent as the dictator and the Greek King as the catalyst and hence why the Royals were removed along with the junta. The first act of the Greek dictator was to remove the Greek troops from Cyprus and a couple of years later to invite Turkey to invade the island while the Greek army stood down. Some few hundred Greek commandos in Cyprus that were left stranded in the island teamed up with the unarmed Cypriot national guard and effected major blows to the Turkish navy who invaded unopposed and still managed to lose ships(by blowing up their own) and lots of equipment.
#15055367
Atlantis wrote:How then do you explain that the mighty US of A just packed up to run away from Erdogan's Islamist thugs in Syria?

Then he is playing the Great Game rather well...?

As to the EU, fortunately, EU members don't have any irridentist claims on each other.

Actually, they do, but they aren't allowed to express them. Poland was moved westward after 1945, and so Germany would like part of western Poland back and Poland would like part of western Ukraine back. Neither of them will get their wish, and in fact they are forbidden from even expressing such a wish. I think the last time Germany even murmured about it was back in the 1980s under Kohl, and he was swiftly told to shut the fuck up by just about every other European leader. Thatcher was particularly blunt about it, as I recall. Lol.

Erdogan will play his neo-Ottoman games until he falls flat on his face. There is no way that he can get away with this claim for a maritime zone. It's joke.

This is how the Great Game is played - you make maximal claims, and then 'settle' for much less, as was always your intention all along.

No he isn't. He is antagonizing almost everybody. At this stage, Turkey's only ally is Pakistan. He is turning Turkey into an international pariah.

I don't understand why people are so fascinated by mad autocrats like Erdogan, Trump, Putin et al. these days. Is it the increased CO2 content in the atmosphere that impedes people's ability to think?

They may or may not be autocrats, but they are hardly 'mad'.
#15055442
Egyptian tanks sent to Libya to thwart Turkish intervention in battle for Tripoli

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A consignment of Egyptian T-72 tanks and APCs arrived in Libya on Thursday, Dec. 19, to bolster Gen. Khalifa Haftar’s Libyan National Army (LNA), which had just broken through to the southern outskirts of Tripoli. This consignment was personally ordered by Egyptian President Abdel-Fatteh El-Sisi, DEBKAfile’s military and intelligence sources reveal, along with instructions to a number of Egyptian air force squadrons to stand ready to support Haftar’s push to take the capital from the UN-recognized Government of National Accord.

El-Sisi took those steps in response to the Erdogan government’s reported plan to send over a volunteer force from the Turkish Muslim Brotherhood (SADAT) to help the GNA resist Haftar’s push into Tripoli. SADAT consists of former Al Qaeda and ISIS jihadists recruited in Syria by the Turkish MIT intelligence agency. Our sources add that a number of Hamas activists hosted by Turkey have trained with these units.
It was in reference to this Turkish intervention in the Tripoli battle that El-Sisi declared this week: “The Libyan government has been held hostage by terrorist militias in the capital, Tripoli.”

This week, the Libyan Muslim Brotherhood convinced the Tripoli government to formally apply to Ankara for military assistance to repel the Haftar advance.

Turkish military aid to the GNA thus far consists of 3,000 army “advisers” and a steady supply of weapons systems, including anti-tank rockets and drones.

Haftar’s army is solidly backed by Egypt, the United Arab Emirates and Russia. The Egyptians provide intelligence, weapons and ammo; the Russians have deployed thousands of mercenaries, most from the Wagner Group contractors, some transferred from Syria to Libya; and the UAE recently supplied the Haftar force with a small squadron of six US-made Archangel ISR planes. These aircraft usually provide police forces on the ground with surveillance and back-up fire. The Haftar army has turned them into bombers.
If Turkey goes through with its plan to deploy Muslim Brotherhood volunteers to Libya, The Egyptian air force will go into action for a showdown against Turkish intervention.


further developments, it gets dicey !
https://www.debka.com/egyptian-tanks-se ... r-tripoli/
#15055452
Atlantis wrote:That is so stupid that it defies comment. Brits are really very ignorant about Europe.

Really? I distinctly remember Kohl tentatively raising the issue back in the day, and I distinctly remember the reaction. Lol.
#15055559
Atlantis wrote:No German government has made any territorial claims on its neighbors since 1945.

I didn't say that it had. I said that Kohl had made tentative suggestions in that direction back in the 1980s, before being immediately shut down by the other European leaders. He never raised the issue again, not even tentatively. At no point was it official policy, and the reaction at the time ensured that it would never become official policy. Which was, indeed, the whole point of the reaction.
#15055570
Potemkin wrote:Really? I distinctly remember Kohl tentatively raising the issue back in the day, and I distinctly remember the reaction. Lol.

Yes I distinctly remember this as well.

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