[Politics_Observer]

@Heisenberg

I agree. The Russians are particularly straight up honest about their intent in the Middle East. They also have no bones in letting their vassal states know who is the boss. Take for example this article where the Russians put the crooked, corrupt, power hunger dictator Assad in his place in letting him know he best fall in line and take orders from Moscow: https://www.debka.com/putin-humiliates- ... as-vassal/

[anasawad]

Iran is not an imperialist state. It is anti the imperialist states

@skinster

And it is a powerful state with powerful allies.

So powerful that they can't feed their own people, and can't rule without using secret police to crack down on opposition.






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Regarding the discussion on the reign of the shah:
The Shah's reign was shit, he was a tyrant by all means.
The problem with the clerics is that they're not only copying his policies but put it on steroids.
So yes, the reign of the shah was better in the sense that he's the lesser of two evils.

[Atlantis]

"Iran is not an imperialist state. It is anti the imperialist states"

Do you mean that the stars and stripes is the Iranian flag?



To resist the empire means to resist it and not to capitulate.

You are too young to know that the Shah's regime was the most repressive at the time. By comparison, the Mullahs run a benign regime.

[anasawad]

@Atlantis
I know this might be hard to believe, but two empires can and often do exist simultaneously. Shocking, I know.

Both the US and Iran are imperialists. Anyone not seeing that is either stupid or intentionally blinding themselves.
Primarily because clerical Iran is copying the US foreign policy to the letter.

Also, since you seem good with maps, why don't you bless us with a map of Iranian militias and proxies across the region?

Regarding the Shah's regime, I might be too young, but my family isn't.
The number of people killed, tortured, imprisoned, etc by the clerics is alone far higher than that of the Shah. And the crackdown on opposition inside of Iran is likewise far more brutal under the clerics.

I know this might also be shocking to you guys, but both the Shah and the clerics can be tyrannical, the tyranny of one does not somehow excuse or diminish that of the other.
The Shah used the Savak, the clerics use the revolutionary guards.
The Shah killed opposition and cracked down on protests, the clerics do the exact same thing, simply with bigger guns.
The Shah robbed the country, the clerics also robbed the country; Khamenei alone has 10s of billions of dollars of stolen public funds.


This mentality that seems to have infested the western left where the actions of the US somehow excuse the actions of dictators, tyrants, mass killers, and genocidal maniacs abroad is retarded, get rid of it.

[Potemkin]

@Atlantis
I know this might be hard to believe, but two empires can and often do exist simultaneously. Shocking, I know.

Both the US and Iran are imperialists. Anyone not seeing that is either stupid or intentionally blinding themselves.
Primarily because clerical Iran is copying the US foreign policy to the letter.

Also, since you seem good with maps, why don't you bless us with a map of Iranian militias and proxies across the region?

Regarding the Shah's regime, I might be too young, but my family isn't.
The number of people killed, tortured, imprisoned, etc by the clerics is alone far higher than that of the Shah. And the crackdown on opposition inside of Iran is likewise far more brutal under the clerics.

I know this might also be shocking to you guys, but both the Shah and the clerics can be tyrannical, the tyranny of one does not somehow excuse or diminish that of the other.
The Shah used the Savak, the clerics use the revolutionary guards.
The Shah killed opposition and cracked down on protests, the clerics do the exact same thing, simply with bigger guns.
The Shah robbed the country, the clerics also robbed the country; Khamenei alone has 10s of billions of dollars of stolen public funds.


This mentality that seems to have infested the western left where the actions of the US somehow excuse the actions of dictators, tyrants, mass killers, and genocidal maniacs abroad is retarded, get rid of it.

Well said, @anasawad! But I would add that it's an attitude which infests the West in general, not just the left. For the Western right-wing, the actions of the Soviet Union somehow excused the brutal violence of right-wing dictatorships the world over, from Pinochet to Apartheid South Africa to the genocides in Indonesia. In reality, of course, oppression is oppression and injustice is injustice, no matter who commits it or under what 'justification'.

There is a 'Great Game' being played between Iran and the USA. The fact that one of the players is far more powerful than the other should not blind us to the fact that they are essentially doing the same things with the same motivations. And siding with the underdog only makes sense if doing so would help to advance the progress of humanity as a whole, whether by expanding the means of production (for example, by replacing a feudal system with a capitalist one) or by lifting the dead hand of an outmoded regime (such as Tsarism in Russia or the Qing Dynasty in China). The underdog isn't always the side we should be supporting; often it is the more powerful player who is the agent of progress and change. In this case, of course, neither side is worth supporting.

[late]

There is a 'Great Game' being played between Iran and the USA. The fact that one of the players is far more powerful than the other should not blind us to the fact that they are essentially doing the same things with the same motivations. And siding with the underdog only makes sense if doing so would help to advance the progress of humanity as a whole, whether by expanding the means of production (for example, by replacing a feudal system with a capitalist one) or by lifting the dead hand of an outmoded regime (such as Tsarism in Russia or the Qing Dynasty in China). The underdog isn't always the side we should be supporting; often it is the more powerful player who is the agent of progress and change. In this case, of course, neither side is worth supporting.

Hardly that simple.

Oil is a big driver of history, and Iran has oil. A LOT of what we did, and what we do, is about oil.

We were accomplishing more with Iran with diplomacy.

Crushing Iran, making it another failed state, will not further the cause of peace.

Au contraire...

[Potemkin]

Hardly that simple.

Oil is a big driver of history, and Iran has oil. A LOT of what we did, and what we do, is about oil.

We were accomplishing more with Iran with diplomacy.

Crushing Iran, making it another failed state, will not further the cause of peace.

Au contraire...

What makes you think the USA is trying to "further the cause of peace"? Their purpose is clearly to cripple any potential rivals to their influence in that region of the world. They successfully crippled Iraq and now they intend to do the same to Iran. Remember what Condoleeza Rice said about "creative chaos"? Furthering the cause of peace is the last thing on their minds.

[late]

What makes you think the USA is trying to "further the cause of peace"? Their purpose is clearly to cripple any potential rivals to their influence in that region of the world. They successfully crippled Iraq and now they intend to do the same to Iran. Remember what Condoleeza Rice said about "creative chaos"? Furthering the cause of peace is the last thing on their minds.

I was referring to Obama's diplomatic work with Iran.

The American Right still screams about that, but building a constructive relationship takes time.

As to the larger point, we have let our government become a pawn to a loose coalition of oil guys, the military industrial complexes, other players, and the psychotic war loving Right.

[Potemkin]

I was referring to Obama's diplomatic work with Iran.

The American Right still screams about that, but building a constructive relationship takes time.

As to the larger point, we have let our government become a pawn to a loose coalition of oil guys, the military industrial complexes, other players, and the psychotic war loving Right.

Since when has the US government not been a pawn of these forces?

[Politics_Observer]

@Potemkin

The "Great Game" is not so much between the US and Iran as it is between the US, Russia and China in the Middle East. Of course Iran wants the US out of the Middle East given our past hostile policy towards Iran and our alliance with Israel. However, that doesn't equate to a "Great Game" between the US and Iran.

It could, however be better argued that Israel and Iran are competing in a "Great Game" between themselves for regional dominance each using the major powers as allies from the US, Russia and China respectively.

[Atlantis]

There is a 'Great Game' being played between Iran and the USA.

That's like saying the Irish and British played the great game for 800 years. The British were the aggressors. To suggest anything else is utterly disgusting.

Iran has suffered Anglo-American aggression for over 150 years. To suggest anything else is utterly disgusting.

Iran has the right to self-defense. Iran also has the right to protect allied countries or Shias from Sunni and US aggression. Iran also has the right to counter US encirclement that is aimed at destroying the country. Iran also has the right to strike at any country from which the US launches any sort of action against Iran.

@anasawad, the Iranian diaspora is full of former supporters of the Shah's regime of terror who hate the Iranian revolution. They actively conspire with the enemies against their own country. I'm opposed to the death sentence, but most countries hang traitors. And considering the level of violence in the ME, which you yourself have condoned, the Mullahs are totally justified to crack down on traitors. They are traitors who want to incite the US to spell the blood of their own people to invade their country, just like Iraqi exiles played a role in motivating the illegal US invasion of Iraq. In the end, the traitors and US lackeys will be expelled together with the Yanks from the region.

[Zionist Nationalist]

@Atlantis Does Iran have the right to massacre protesters? (not only in Iran they also did it in Iraq)
You dont understand one important aspect and its that the regime is not popular WITHIN Iran not just in the diaspora community
Islamic republic regime is illegitimate

[anasawad]

@Atlantis

the Mullahs are totally justified to crack down on traitors.

So, basically, what you're saying is that people demanding their very basic rights like the right to have a roof over your head, being able to get proper healthcare, be able to provide food for yourself and family, access to fresh and clean water, being free to express yourself and hold any beliefs religious or otherwise you wish, etc are traitors for demanding those rights?

People demanding the upper class to stop robbing the country, stop using extreme violence to maintain their positions of power, allow the people to participate in the political system and have a say in their own country, those are traitors?

They are traitors who want to incite the US to spell the blood of their own people to invade their country, just like Iraqi exiles played a role in motivating the illegal US invasion of Iraq. In the end, the traitors and US lackeys will be expelled together with the Yanks from the region.

No one supports the MEK in Iran, so cut it with the bullshit propaganda.

[Potemkin]

@Potemkin

The "Great Game" is not so much between the US and Iran as it is between the US, Russia and China in the Middle East. Of course Iran wants the US out of the Middle East given our past hostile policy towards Iran and our alliance with Israel. However, that doesn't equate to a "Great Game" between the US and Iran.

It could, however be better argued that Israel and Iran are competing in a "Great Game" between themselves for regional dominance each using the major powers as allies from the US, Russia and China respectively.

It's not so much between Israel and Iran as between Iran and Saudi Arabia - the Iranians and the Saudis are playing a gigantic game of 'Go' on the board of the Middle East, trying to encircle and capture each other's stones. That's at a local level. At the global level, the Great Game is being played between the US, Russia, China and (to a much lesser extent) the EU. But sometimes the global and local levels intersect, as now between the US and Iran.

[Zionist Nationalist]

@anasawad This is the true face of the so called "progressives" they only pretend to be liberal and for freedom of speech to gain support but once they get what they want they gonna reveal their true face and its going to be a very orwellian world under their "progressive" whip
Im referring to the politicians businessman and all powerful globalists who push this agenda
but regular folks who support them dont even realize how they being played

[Potemkin]

@anasawad This is the true face of the so called "progressives" they only pretend to be liberal and for freedom of speech to gain support but once they get what they want they gonna reveal their true face and its going to be a very orwellian world under their "progressive" whip
Im referring to the politicians businessman and all powerful globalists who push this agenda
but regular folks who support them dont even realize how they being played

Atlantis isn't a "progressive", he's a German. Lol.

[Zionist Nationalist]

Atlantis isn't a "progressive", he's a German. Lol.

Germans cant be progressives?

[Potemkin]

Germans cant be progressives?

They can; but when they do they tend to be authoritarian and conformist progressives. Likewise, when they are conservatives they tend to be authoritarian and conformist conservatives. Atlantis is... very German. Lol.

[late]

Since when has the US government not been a pawn of these forces?

Again, I was talking about Obama and the JCPOA.

[Potemkin]

Again, I was talking about Obama and the JCPOA.

Obama was trying to swim against the tide. His greatest achievement was leaving office without being assassinated.