[Zionist Nationalist]

How was your walk, Tainari?



Uhhh, Palestine continues to be colonized ("Israel" is a settler-colony)

Its your opinion
I disagree that its colonialism

Arabs came from Arabian peninsula they are not native to the area

[ckaihatsu]

Jordan ends historic arrangement with Israel as West Bank annexation tensions rise

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/jord ... e-n1196936

[Prosthetic Conscience]

@Donna , @Zionist Nationalist , @skinster , stop this ridiculous game of insults. The next attempt by any of you, and it's a formal warning.

[skinster]

OK but you could've kept in the part where I responded to ZN stating "Israel" is objectively a settler-colonial state, since that's a fact and not an insult.

But I get it.

[Prosthetic Conscience]

I could have, but since you mixed it with insults, I couldn't be bothered.

[skinster]

Fair enough. And thanks for agreeing it's a fact.

[Wulfschilde]

Well folks, the problem now becomes that the Climate change people don't know how to think about solving environmental change issues without capitalist growth models.

Time to talk about radical ways of thinking about fixing the Planet of the Humans--produced by Michael Moore who doesn't direct this film. It is Jeff Gibbs who directs it.

What is the issue? Addicted to constant growth. What model is that? Capitalism. Addicted to corporate control? What model is that? Capitalist. Got to stop thinking about capitalism underlying control models.

What is the solution?

"Degrowth" and pandemic lockdowns go together like PB&J. I don't think leftists are going to let go of these lockdowns any time soon.

Of course, trying to pair "degrowth" with open borders, which presumes a strongly growing population, is nonsense.

[Donna]

lol having people crossing imaginary lines on the earth isn't the issue here.

[Robert Urbanek]

In the two-year pandemic now projected by scientists, leftists do not have to force a lockdown. Through economic necessity or fear of the virus, many people will be avoiding travel, sporting events and concerts, and consumption of non-essentials.

Degrowth is here to stay and we need to look at a new economic model to accommodate it. It will either come through revolution, tyranny or careful planning and shared sacrifice. Does anyone have any constructive suggestions on how to phase in a degrowth economy with minimum hardship and disruption?

[Tainari88]

Planet of the humans.....it is fun to pretend to know what human being will become in the future...clip from the fictional movie Lucy (2014).

I wonder who we become over hundreds of thousands of years and people still defending some horrible unjust system of Capitalism...old and dated like slave holders justifying all that rotten stuff....I like Lucy's answer about what ignorance is versus knowledge in this clip:

[Tainari88]

In the two-year pandemic now projected by scientists, leftists do not have to force a lockdown. Through economic necessity or fear of the virus, many people will be avoiding travel, sporting events and concerts, and consumption of non-essentials.

Degrowth is here to stay and we need to look at a new economic model to accommodate it. It will either come through revolution, tyranny or careful planning and shared sacrifice. Does anyone have any constructive suggestions on how to phase in a degrowth economy with minimum hardship and disruption?

Shared sacrifice requires mutually beneficial cooperative economics. Having people compete for scarce resources is counterproductive. They will have to do what many do in the third world which is reuse, recycle and redistribute what is here already. Also, they will have to lower consumption drastically and anything that wastes energy will become obsolete soon.

The future will be technology in the service of more old fashioned ways of living. It might be a possibility. Also, borders won't be as important. What will be far more important are going to be transparent information systems accessible to the vast majority of people. The government will try to control everything and to replace a lot of human labor with robots,...but for what? For humans to get more time to do what they like but only to serve a more human need.

A lot to think about @Robert Urbanek

[Patrickov]

Economically they're still tied to their colonizers, for the most part.

Which is, to some extent, why I see the independence movement stupid at the first place.

[Ter]

UN response

Secretary-General of the United Nations Dag Hammarskjöld made an appeal to Kasa-Vubu asking that Lumumba be treated according to due process. The Soviet Union denounced Hammarskjöld and the First World as responsible for Lumumba's arrest and demanded his release.

The United Nations Security Council was called into session on 7 December 1960 to consider Soviet demands that the UN seek Lumumba's immediate release, the immediate restoration of Lumumba as head of the Congo government, the disarming of the forces of Mobutu, and the immediate evacuation of Belgians from the Congo. The Soviets also requested the immediate resignation of Hammarskjöld, the arrests of Mobutu and Tshombe, and the withdrawal of UN peacekeeping forces.[130] Hammarskjöld, answering Soviet criticism of his Congo operations, said that if the UN forces were withdrawn from the Congo, "I fear everything will crumble."

The threat to the UN cause was intensified by the announcement of the withdrawal of their contingents by Yugoslavia, the United Arab Republic, Ceylon, Indonesia, Morocco, and Guinea. The pro-Lumumba resolution was defeated on 14 December 1960 by a vote of 8–2. On the same day, a Western resolution that would have given Hammarskjöld increased powers to deal with the Congo situation was vetoed by the Soviet Union.

Final days and execution

Lumumba was sent first on 3 December 1960 to Thysville military barracks Camp Hardy, 150 km (about 100 miles) from Léopoldville. He was accompanied by Maurice Mpolo and Joseph Okito, two political associates who had planned to assist him in setting up a new government. They were fed poorly by the prison guards, as per Mobutu's orders. In Lumumba's last documented letter, he wrote to Rajeshwar Dayal: "in a word, we are living amid absolutely impossible conditions; moreover, they are against the law".[69]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrice_L ... N_response

I just saw this now.
Let me share the fact that one of my friends was in The Congo when Lumumba was captured. He knows for a fact that the order to execute him came from the Americans.
My friend is still alive but in hospital under treatment. He is in his eighties now.

[Tainari88]

Which is, to some extent, why I see the independence movement stupid at the first place.

Just let the abusers keep abusing with impunity eh? No.

So many Africans were told that. Without Belgium you are nothing. Without France. Without England and the UK running the show....you are shit. Gandhi's answer was,
You are guests in someone else's house. It is time for the guest to leave.


Patrikov trying to think that independence is bullshit? No. It is not. Independence has to do with total responsibility. You have to take total responsibility for what goes on in a nation and with a country. If you allow people with no stake, no real commitment to a country to rule it without any real knowledge, interest or investment either of blood, money and time and presence? It will fail. It will.

Look at Iraq. Condoleeza Rice had to acknowledge that they could not build democracy in Iraq. It was way too difficult. They underestimated severely how difficult it would be. Why? Are they Iraqis? Who speak Arabic and who have internal disputes? Who lived in that culture and in that land for millenia? Who have had an entire lifetime of experiences within the setting and framework of that society to understand the unwritten rules, the mores, the customs, the habits and the religious experiences, the education, the commercial ties and the hatreds, the loves and the highs and the lows for generations and millenia? It is complex as hell. Yet they had the arrogance to believe that all that human significance is nothing because here come the Yanks with the truth and the way and the power and force and a coup and a regime change and everyone knows how CHINGON they are....?

The sheer arrogance of such shit is breath taking stuff. The only success they had was an American spy of Iraqi background being patient for years and years during Saddam Hussein's imprisonment. He spoke fluent Iraqi Arabic and was raised culturally that way working for the CIA. The outsiders had NOTHING. That is reality. Spent obscene amounts of money on a war that did not create any real democracy. A total failure. Operation FAILURE is what they should call it.

[Patrickov]

Just let the abusers keep abusing with impunity eh? No.

So many Africans were told that. Without Belgium you are nothing. Without France. Without England and the UK running the show....you are shit.

Gandhi's answer was, you are guests in someone else's house. It is time for the guest to leave.


Patrickov trying to think that independence is bullshit? No. It is not. Independence has to do with total responsibility. You have to take total responsibility for what goes on in a nation and with a country. If you allow people with no stake, no real commitment to a country to rule it without any real knowledge, interest or investment either of blood, money and time and presence? It will fail. It will.

Look at Iraq. Condoleeza Rice had to acknowledge that they could not build democracy in Iraq. It was way too difficult. They underestimated severely how difficult it would be. Why? Are they Iraqis? Who speak Arabic and who have internal disputes? Who lived in that culture and in that land for millenia? Who have had an entire lifetime of experiences within the setting and framework of that society to understand the unwritten rules, the mores, the customs, the habits and the religious experiences, the education, the commercial ties and the hatreds, the loves and the highs and the lows for generations and millenia? It is complex as hell. Yet they had the arrogance to believe that all that human significance is nothing because here come the Yanks with the truth and the way and the power and force and a coup and a regime change and everyone knows how CHINGON they are....?

The sheer arrogance of such shit is breath taking stuff. The only success they had was an American spy of Iraqi background being patient for years and years during Saddam Hussein's imprisonment. He spoke fluent Iraqi Arabic and was raised culturally that way working for the CIA. The outsiders had NOTHING. That is reality. Spent obscene amounts of money on a war that did not create any real democracy. A total failure. Operation FAILURE is what they should call it.

Do not get me wrong, why I advocate the continual of colonialism (or a new colonialism) is exactly that it is easier to hold the West accountable than the locals.

From almost everywhere in Africa (even South Africa in this case), India, China, Russia and to a lesser extent Latin America, no country is doing well, either because the administrators do not hold the necessary resource for them to take up the necessary responsibility, or the locals simply do not understand this very concept of taking up the responsibility. (at least India is changing I believe)

There is no doubt that the West made serial and serious mistakes in the Middle East. If anything, they at least should try to cooperate with Turkey and / or Iran, instead of just Saudi Arabia (which is another bad country, although Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman is keen on doing some kind of window dressing. In comparison, China's patience in Hong Kong seems to have gone) and Israel (some of whom are too obsessive in fulfilling their "destiny").

[Patrickov]

lol having people crossing imaginary lines on the earth isn't the issue here.

Everyone has their moral standards. Since these line don't materially exist they are by definition imaginary lines. Everyone must have something that crosses others' lines, and there are plenty of such crossings which are mutual and leaving no space of accommodation or even negotiation. This is why conflicts and wars have been inevitable. IMHO PoFo is exactly one of the platforms to exchange issues like these, so I strongly disagree with the above statement.

National borders, in comparison, can be materialised.

[Patrickov]

Does anyone have any constructive suggestions on how to phase in a degrowth economy with minimum hardship and disruption?

Given that many would probably go for the quickest and dirtiest way to avoid wasting time, I think the answer is "no".

[Julian658]

IN the video the movie makers clearly state that the reason for climate change is the growth of the economy.
They further state that people do not need all the things they have or want. They clearly state people could live with less.

These bozzos are using climate change to push old fashion marxism.

[ckaihatsu]

Jordan ends historic arrangement with Israel as West Bank annexation tensions rise

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/jord ... e-n1196936

@Donna , @Zionist Nationalist , @skinster , stop this ridiculous game of insults. The next attempt by any of you, and it's a formal warning.

Whew! Just barely missed that informal warning! (Yowtch!) (grin)


---

In the two-year pandemic now projected by scientists, leftists do not have to force a lockdown. Through economic necessity or fear of the virus, many people will be avoiding travel, sporting events and concerts, and consumption of non-essentials.

Degrowth is here to stay and we need to look at a new economic model to accommodate it. It will either come through revolution, tyranny or careful planning and shared sacrifice. Does anyone have any constructive suggestions on how to phase in a degrowth economy with minimum hardship and disruption?

Everyone needs to seriously cut back on their private jet travel. People!


x D

[ckaihatsu]

Which is, to some extent, why I see the independence movement stupid at the first place.

Well, no, I think you're being too dismissive -- the *political* aspect is very important:

Decolonization has been used to refer to the intellectual decolonization from the colonizers' ideas that made the colonized feel inferior.[7][8][9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decolonization