China's Parliament to Discuss Draft Hong Kong National Security Law - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15094153
Code Rood wrote:Leaving out a major piece in this puzzle, just because you've been conditioned to see this piece of the puzzle as an anti-Semitic conspiracy or because you're afraid, isn't going to help solve our problems. If you're being honest with yourself, you'll have to admit that ''many roads lead to Jerusalem''.

No one thinks you want to enslave American blacks if you're critical of how they run their communities. No one thinks you want a potato famine if you think the Irish have a drinking problem. No one thinks you hate Italians if you have a problem with the mafia.

People, especially in Western nations, are so terrified to talk about the rotten apples of this certain group of people. It just explains a whole lot about the world that we currently live in.


I find this pretty much a stretch. Jews are not that numerous to impose their order worldwide like this. They also care their own place more and at least have an agreeable system to govern themselves or whoever supporting them (in contrast Chinese system is crap even for maintaining supporters). I won't oppose it if Jews are asked to run, say, Hong Kong.
#15094178
Code Rood wrote:Leaving out a major piece in this puzzle, just because you've been conditioned to see this piece of the puzzle as an anti-Semitic conspiracy or because you're afraid, isn't going to help solve our problems. If you're being honest with yourself, you'll have to admit that ''many roads lead to Jerusalem''.

No one thinks you want to enslave American blacks if you're critical of how they run their communities. No one thinks you want a potato famine if you think the Irish have a drinking problem. No one thinks you hate Italians if you have a problem with the mafia.

People, especially in Western nations, are so terrified to talk about the rotten apples of this certain group of people. It just explains a whole lot about the world that we currently live in.


Listen, 75 years ago we already went down this road of talking of collectively blaming certain groups of people. The result was not very nice was it?

It's no different to talking about white oppression or white privilege.

Whenever you try to place blame or associate a negative behaviour with a people, whoeover they are, the end result is not very good.
#15094194
Political Interest wrote:Listen, 75 years ago we already went down this road of talking of collectively blaming certain groups of people. The result was not very nice was it?


It's also not nice to try to guilt trip or shut up someone by bringing up something that has happened a long time ago. I wasn't there, Political Interest. There's nothing I can do about that. I'm talking about the here and now. And I talk about things that I observe and have found out. What's so wrong with that? Why is it so wrong to say things like ''Israel is the technological juggernaut'', ''Israel is the second eye of the world'' (Bibi himself will tell you this) or ''Israel is selling US secrets to China''? How is it not odd that America's big adversary and America's ''greatest ally'' have such a close relationship? Why do you have to travel back in history and assume the worst of me? If it makes you feel any better, I'm not a danger to anyone. Believe it or not, I can actually be a very friendly person if someone's not being a dick.

So why not just lay all the cards on the table? It shouldn't be hard, and yet it is. Many people literally self-censor in order to not make people uncomfortable. That can't be good either.

Political Interest wrote:It's no different to talking about white oppression or white privilege.


If people think there's a thing called white privilege or that they're being oppressed by whites, then they can have that opinion. I think it's a weird opinion that has been made big by the mainstream, but I'm pro-free speech.

Political Interest wrote:Whenever you try to place blame or associate a negative behaviour with a people, whoeover they are, the end result is not very good.


Code Rood wrote:People, especially in Western nations, are so terrified to talk about the rotten apples of this certain group of people.


I don't know, man. I can be harsh, but I think I have worded this pretty carefully here.
#15094196
Code Rood wrote:Why is it so wrong to say things like ''Israel is the technological juggernaut'', ''Israel is the second eye of the world'' (Bibi himself will tell you this) or ''Israel is selling US secrets to China''? How is it not odd that America's big adversary and America's ''greatest ally'' have such a close relationship? Why do you have to travel back in history and assume the worst of me? If it makes you feel any better, I'm not a danger to anyone. Believe it or not, I can actually be a very friendly person if someone's not being a dick.


I don't assume the worst. It's just because of historical reasons we have to be very careful how we discuss these subjects. If you just mean Israel the country then I do not object to your criticisms.

But you know very well that criticism of Israel often extends into wider anti-semitic conspiracy theories. By all means criticise Israel as a state but let's not extend it into the realms of silliness.
#15094201
Political Interest wrote:I don't assume the worst. It's just because of historical reasons we have to be very careful how we discuss these subjects. If you just mean Israel the country then I do not object to your criticisms.

But you know very well that criticism of Israel often extends into wider anti-semitic conspiracy theories. By all means criticise Israel as a state but let's not extend it into the realms of silliness.


Unfortunately it doesn't stop with Israel. If Zionism was all about having a Jewish homeland, I'd be cool with it. But it is not.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but Zionist influence and infiltration in a country like the US (the current superpower) is enormous. This has caused tremendous troubles and shifts over the last couple of decades. How can one possibly deny this and call it a conspiracy with a straight face? And Israel and Zionism also ties into the China question. This is really a big piece of the puzzle that you want to leave out, simply because it makes you feel uncomfortable. How are you going to solve problems if you're too scared to talk about certain stuff? Sometimes you just have to face the ugly truth.
#15094209
Code Rood wrote:How are you going to solve problems if you're too scared to talk about certain stuff.


The problem isn't any particular group of people, the problem is the system that allows these groups to gain undue power and influence. The solution is not to target specific groups, the solution is to decentralize and democratize power to the point that it's impossible for any group to control culture and politics.
#15094213
The discussion has deviated so far away that I start feeling some other kind of conspiracy has happened ...

Anyway, even down here it is rather quieter than I expect. Yesterday there's no call for a mass rally, just some more belligerent ones fighting the police right away. To be fair, at this point the "mask" has probably been destroyed so it is rather moot to direct the anger to intermediates, e.g. Carrie Lam's administration, anymore.
#15094226
Patrickov wrote:Jews are not that numerous


That doesn't matter. If there's enough of them that are intelligent and have the will to do big things, what's stopping them? Most people are average or stupid, and will buy whatever you feed them. They don't understand what's going on around them. They often don't even question a damn thing.

You can do a lot of stuff with very few and intelligent people. Take the most intelligent of a group (Jewish, German, Chinese or whatever) and you can do almost anything when you have the upper hand. Currently the intelligent people of the Jewish group are at the top of the food chain in this world. That doesn't mean that it's all and only them. But let's be honest, they hold the most wealth. They have a lot of influence over the current superpower; the USA. It is what it is.

The only thing the rest of humanity can hope and pray for is that these intelligent people aren't (all) psychopathic or that there's a counter movement (I don't care if that group is filled with Jews, Chinese, Germans, French or whatever) with good intelligent people. As long as they don't push for sinister agendas or trample all over your rights, I'm fine with it. The problem is that evil never sleeps. Good does.

Today there's no doubt that we're run by mostly evil fucks. China is run by evil fucks. The West is run by evil fucks. The EU is run by evil fucks. Russia is run by evil fucks.

And there's nothing we can do about it politically. Sure, you still have the illusion of choice in countries like the USA, but both parties are practically funded and controlled by the same type of crowd.
Last edited by Code Rood on 25 May 2020 20:01, edited 3 times in total.
#15094228
Code Rood wrote:The only thing the rest of humanity can hope and pray for is that these intelligent people aren't (all) psychopathic or that there's a counter movement (I don't care if that group is filled with Jews, Chinese, Germans, French or whatever) with good intelligent people. The problem is that evil never sleeps. Good does.


I will be content if one makes himself an intelligent person and then have enough different groups of them against each other that some kind of balance is reached.

Many different kinds of evil fuck balancing each other may be better than just one bunch of good people but no one smart enough to have them corrected if they do make mistakes.

To me, this is exactly why China fucks up. If Jews are so smart that they "control" two groups to get a good balance of things, then I will say they are actually quite righteous.
#15094239
Code Rood wrote:Unfortunately it doesn't stop with Israel. If Zionism was all about having a Jewish homeland, I'd be cool with it. But it is not.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but Zionist influence and infiltration in a country like the US (the current superpower) is enormous. This has caused tremendous troubles and shifts over the last couple of decades. How can one possibly deny this and call it a conspiracy with a straight face? And Israel and Zionism also ties into the China question. This is really a big piece of the puzzle that you want to leave out, simply because it makes you feel uncomfortable. How are you going to solve problems if you're too scared to talk about certain stuff? Sometimes you just have to face the ugly truth.


Yes, Zionism exists as an ideology with significant influence in the US and UK, as well as in other Western countries. However, it is not an ideology that is merely professed by Jews, there are many Christian Zionists as well.

I am not sure in which way Zionism ties into the China question. What does Zionism have to do with China?

Zionism is an issue that only has relevance to Western foreign policy in the Middle East surely?
#15094493
Fareed's Global Briefing wrote:For Hong Kong, ‘The Worst Is Yet to Come’

As China considers a massively controversial security law for Hong Kong—and as more protests are expected in response—Minxin Pei predicts in a Project Syndicate column that “the worst is yet to come,” with more aggressive measures likely to follow.

“Now that China has decided to pursue this strategy” of superseding Hong Kong’s freedoms and semi-autonomy “in earnest,” Pei writes, “we should expect it to follow through” with additional policies hinted at in a Communist Party document in November. Aside from the new law, Pei writes, Beijing “also intends to change the procedures for appointing [Hong Kong’s] chief executive and principal officials. It will strengthen Hong Kong’s law-enforcement capabilities, and conduct a campaign to inculcate ‘national consciousness and patriotic spirit’ among Hong Kong’s civil servants and young people. The goal is to integrate the city’s economy much more closely with that of the mainland.”

Chinese security agencies will likely set up shop in Hong Kong, with a mandate to squash any subversion, Pei writes. “If strictly enforced, one should anticipate Chinese security agents engaging in surveillance, intimidation, and arrests of not only Hong Kong residents, but also foreign nationals deemed to pose a threat to national security.” As a result, Pei suggests, the US (and other governments) may stop treating Hong Kong differently from the rest of China for trade purposes, and we may see the end of Hong Kong as Asia’s premier financial and commercial hub.

Sure, Hong Kong ceases to be as it is, and it'll be nasty.
#15094587
Looking at @Code Rood posts. Yes, people in power are typical ‘evil’ in that they are in a position to abuse power. Admin Edit: Rule 16 Violation

Socialists and similar seem to think that some people are good and thus could be trusted with power. This always works out badly because everyone is both ‘good’ and ‘bad’. Given the opportunity, and no restraint, people with power end up abusing it, often just to keep that power. This is the big flaw of socialist ideologies like communism.


Now, it would be nice if @Code Rood could forget the Jews and stay on topic.


Regarding @Beren . So by your logic, we should support the return of Hungry to Austrian rule? Are you a closet Habsburg loyalist?

The HK identity has had 150 years to form. I can’t see any good reason why they shouldn’t endeavour to preserve they own history distinct from communist China. On that point, the CCP won’t last forever. It can fall apart as fast as the USSR did. Authoritarian regimes rule through fear, thus lacking depth to popular support. Once they are weakened, and people stop fearing the , they collapse very quickly. Of course this is why the CCP has to try to crush the people of HK. If the CCP fails, it just might going down like the proverbial sack of poo poo.
#15094596
Image

Image

How democracy and prosperity on HK was slowly getting killed:

Image

Also this crackdown will not solve anything. Most of the protesters are 35 and under meaning that the hate for China will just increase from this and grow further. There are other interesting facts about the protest also: http://www.com.cuhk.edu.hk/ccpos/resear ... -ENG.pdf?1
#15094636
JohnRawls wrote:How democracy and prosperity on HK was slowly getting killed:

Image


They were lying back then because their country was not as "strong" as now, but even before that CY Leung's true colours was revealed.

JohnRawls wrote:Also this crackdown will not solve anything. Most of the protesters are 35 and under meaning that the hate for China will just increase from this and grow further.


Actually it is not as youthful as some believe. For example my parents are actually more active than I (over 35 myself). Those born or having come to Hong Kong in the early days of PRC, who are now in their 60s or even 70s, have equally strong sentiment if not more.

Meanwhile, considering what happened after 1989 the CCP really don't care. If they find it necessary they will just exterminate us like what Nazi used to do to Jews, Romas and Poles, as well as what the Chinese and Indians are doing to Muslims. Their only fear is that Trump or someone else would economically cripple them.

If I were Xi Jinping I would be much more frank in the matter. Just deport whoever don't want to submit. Pass some kind of "Sigmund Freud Act", i.e. force whoever unsubmitting able body pay an one-time fee (hefty enough to claim back some of the potential value brought by the individual, but not to the level that they cannot restart life elsewhere) to leave, but if it is chosen the government has to provide the processing and service as required.
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