[anasawad]

We'll never be part of Syria nor will we ever accept Syrian rule over us.
Go fuck yourself with your parroting of Arab nationalist propaganda bullshit.

[QatzelOk]

We'll never be part of Syria nor will we ever accept Syrian rule over us.
Get lost with your parroting of Arab nationalist propaganda.

I am not an Arab nationalist, nor even an Arab.

But all of those regions would be a lot safer from colonialism if they were united again, like they were under the Ottomans.

This time, an international association would be better than Turkish rule, but all of the regions I mention have the same Arabic, a similar history, and a similar ethnic composition - cosmopolitan.

Foreign forces have divided you up by using propaganda to exaggerate your differences. Don't buy into it.

[wat0n]

For many people in the Middle East, Syria and Lebanon (and Palestine) are the same peoples on the same lands.

For Ashkenazis, the equivalent "home countries" would be mainly Germany and Poland - neither of which is in the Middle East.

And for the Acadians that would be France, go figure. Do you have any other similar arguments to make?

Also, it's interesting to see how keen these "same peoples" are on massacring each other. Go figure, maybe arguments based on blood are not all that great when it comes to the Middle East.

[anasawad]

@QatzelOk

But all of those regions would be a lot safer from colonialism if they were united again, like they were under the Ottomans.

Ooh please, even under the Ottomans, they understood that the region has many nations and had a system of self-governing with each nation having its own monarchs and dynasties since the times of Sulieman the great.

The whole reason why there are so many civil wars and why it's easy to kick start one is because different groups want their autonomy back and don't want to be under the rule of other nations and cultures.

The only people wanting the whole Arab unity under one state, which unsurprisingly should be ruled by them, are fascists who want an Arab ethno-state all while purging out all other non-Arabs of the region.

an international association would be better than Turkish rule,

An international association, e.g. the Arab league, where different independent and sovereign nations co-operate with each other is not the same as one big state where all are ruled by one law and tradition.

but all of the regions I mention have the same Arabic, a similar history, and a similar ethnic composition - cosmopolitan.

The only reason Arabic managed to spread so far is because empires like the Mamluks used to cut your tongue off and torture you if you don't adopt Arabic.
The same attempt of erasing local languages can still be seen with the Kurds and Assyrians where using their language is illegal and could lead to a death penalty.

Foreign forces have divided you up by using propaganda to exaggerate your differences. Don't buy into it.

Foreign forces have forced different nations with different cultures, traditions, religions, and even languages to unite under large artificial states because it was beneficial for them to keep these nations under their control.

If you want to control Iraq for example, you don't give each of the 3 nations in that region independence and autonomy, that would make it difficult; Instead, you force them under one state where whenever one turns on you, you can just support a coup from another and install a new dictator to rule in your name.

You never wondered why it's so easy to install dictators in these countries?

[ingliz]

lone-actors

Does it matter?

A US federal court in Washington has set a new precedent with a default judgment that Iran, Syria, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, whoever, can be held liable for wrongful death damages for the actions of lone-wolf attackers.

" behind each terrorist stands a terrorist organization."

— Jerusalem Post 2 June 2020

You're not arguing against the opposition to Hezbollah, you're arguing against Nasrallah himself

I was not arguing against anyone. I reported the findings of an independent and impartial UN tribunal. Anyway the court's finding, after an investigation that lasted 15 years and cost 1 billion dollars, was not that he was a lone-wolf. The only finding of note, to everyone's surprise, was that his co-conspirators were not Hezbollah.

Note:

"The Trial Chamber unanimously found Mr. Ayyash “guilty beyond a reasonable doubt”, of co-perpetrating a conspiracy to commit an act of terrorism and to intentionally assassinate Mr. Hariri with the premeditated use of explosives."

— UN News 18 August 2020

* My emphasis

[anasawad]

@ingliz
US federal courts are really irrelevant here, the implications that do matter are on the Lebanese front.

Regarding the people found guilty, most of those to be investigated were killed off prior to the final decision, and the court vindicated the others on trial, only found him guilty.
One of the main reason for that is the fact that the old list of suspects like Badderdine and Magnieh (check name spelling:P) for example were killed off by Hezbollah.
Basically, he was the only one left of the main group.

[QatzelOk]

And for the Acadians that would be France, go figure.

Oh, not at all.

The Acadians are a hybrid Mi'kmaq society. They were welcomed by the First Nations, and mixed completely with this other group.

They were destroyed by "chosen people" from Britain, who wanted this land all to themselves, and who wanted all the rest of the land on the Earth, eventually.

My family were deported to France in 1755, and quarantined for years in St-Malo because "Mixed race." "Too First Nations." "No longer really Christian." Etc.

So the Israelis are far more like the British in North America, and the Acadians are much more like one of the hundreds of "Palestinian" First Nations that the British hunted and exterminated like wild dogs.

Rather than being "bombed by Israel" every few years, the Acadians were scalped by the British, and then, finally, ethnic-cleansed. Meanwhile, the Acadians were the only group that was invited to live among the First Nations.

Like the British when it ruled over Acadia, the Israelis are part of a death machine for other cultures that can't be absorbed into the Empire.

That's why they are THE prime suspect.

An international association, e.g. the Arab league, where different independent and sovereign nations co-operate with each other is not the same as one big state where all are ruled by one law and tradition.

States are not all unicameral or strongly federated. There are several models of nation state to choose from.

And by uniting very different small nations into one defensive unit, it would be possible to protect ALL OF THEM, including their languages and cultures from the colonial steamroller.

[skinster]

Hands off Lebanon: Macron’s Self-serving ‘New Pact’ Must Be Shunned

You make it sound downright *frivolous* -- there were *real reasons* for it:

This is typical of wat0n, acting like the story started there. Why would Hezbollah (or Hamas) kidnap Israeli soldiers? Maybe for violating their territory? Maybe so they can get their own kidnapped fighters back?* There's never any context, but the facts are nearly always that Israel is the aggressor, because it continues to be that lunatic state constantly bombing, occupying and otherwise attacking neighbouring countries this week, last week and almost definitely next week, until somebody finally says no. Like Hezbollah did. They said no and got their land back from Israeli occupation. This is the real reason Hezbollah is hated so much, they showed the world that there is a challenge to the expansionist-Apartheid state.

*Israel doesn't like its soldiers getting kidnapped for prisoner exchanges so these days if they have soldiers under threat of capture, Israelis bomb their own to death themselves, as we saw when the IDF were on the ground in a recent Gaza massacre where they bombed buildings their own soldiers were at. The most moral army in the world strikes again!

Again you're insinuating that everything was *peachy*, and that Hezbollah just one day decided to be a cartoonish fiendish villain, out-of-the-blue.

Those who complain about Hezbollah always forget it was Israeli invasion and occupation in Lebanon that caused Hezbollah to be the resistance force they are. But you know, then some IDF terrorists are kidnapped on Lebanese land and apparently they're the victims.

That's because most people left Hezbolalh due to it aligning with the Syrian regime which is considered an enemy of the Lebanese people as the resistence just finished fighting it in 2005.
First Christians left, then Sunnis, then most Shias.

You're not arguing against the opposition to Hezbollah, you're arguing against Nasrallah himself when you say that he did not know or order the assasination.

Nasrallah didn't know about or order the assassination. What are you talking about?

Regarding the whole thing about an Israeli attack on the port, Nasrallah himself denied it just a few days ago in his speech, the reason why is, by many estimates, that if he said it's an Israeli strike then he'll be openly admitting the thing that everyone in the country already knows and he tries to deny after the explosion

Hezbollah didn't control the port/hangers. If you keep making this claim, you're going to have to do a bit more than share your boring and expected opinion. It would be like me repeatedly stating Israel caused the blast, but I can't say that because I can't prove it. The authorities in Lebanon must have other info too, since they've been making arrests of non-Hezbollah officials over the blast, such as those working for the port and for customs.

[ckaihatsu]

*Israel doesn't like its soldiers getting kidnapped for prisoner exchanges so these days if they have soldiers under threat of capture, Israelis bomb their own to death themselves, as we saw when the IDF were on the ground in a recent Gaza massacre where they bombed buildings their own soldiers were at. The most moral army in the world strikes again!

Noted, and thanks -- I immediately thought of the way The Thing behaved in the movie of the same name:

He hypothesizes that the Norris-Thing's head demonstrated that every part of the Thing is an individual life form with its own survival instinct. He sequentially tests blood samples with a heated piece of wire. Everyone passes the test except Palmer, whose blood jumps from the heat. Exposed, Palmer transforms and infects Windows, forcing MacReady to burn them both.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing ... lm%29#Plot

[wat0n]

This is typical of wat0n, acting like the story started there. Why would Hezbollah (or Hamas) kidnap Israeli soldiers? Maybe for violating their territory? Maybe so they can get their own kidnapped fighters back?* There's never any context, but the facts are nearly always that Israel is the aggressor, because it continues to be that lunatic state constantly bombing, occupying and otherwise attacking neighbouring countries this week, last week and almost definitely next week, until somebody finally says no. Like Hezbollah did. They said no and got their land back from Israeli occupation. This is the real reason Hezbollah is hated so much, they showed the world that there is a challenge to the expansionist-Apartheid state.

*Israel doesn't like its soldiers getting kidnapped for prisoner exchanges so these days if they have soldiers under threat of capture, Israelis bomb their own to death themselves, as we saw when the IDF were on the ground in a recent Gaza massacre where they bombed buildings their own soldiers were at. The most moral army in the world strikes again!

Goldin was already dead when the Hannibal Directive was supposedly activated, although your concern for Israeli soldiers is cute (and fake). Even worse, the directive mandates using whatever force necessary to rescue the soldier, not to kill him if he's kidnapped.

And no, Israel did not "violate their territory", as shown before the Shebaa Farms are not Lebanese.

But in a typical @skinster fashion, she will brazenly lie as a means to excuse her own racism.

Noted, and thanks -- I immediately thought of the way The Thing behaved in the movie of the same name:

Why is it that I'm not surprised to see this dehumanizing rhetoric coming from someone who denies Karl Marx's own racism (as shown straight from his own writings)?

[Rich]

And *how* did Israel happen to control those lands as of 1967 -- ?

Nasser told the peacekeepers to go away. And Muslim cry babies have been whining ever since that they got the asses handed to them. No the only way Israel will get peace is if every attack against them is properly punished. That means losing land. Hamas, Hezbollah, these groups don't care about loss of life that's no punishment for them.

Anyway President Trump has courageously recognised the annexation of the Golan including the Shebaa Farms. Candidate Biden has de-facto endorsed the wisdom of Trumps move. Correct me if I'm wrong but China Joe has no plans to de-recognise Israeli sovereignty.

[ingliz]

the Shebaa Farms are not Lebanese

It is occupied territory and has been since 1967.

On June 7, 2000, the UN published what it called the Blue Line to determine whether Israel had fully withdrawn from Lebanese territory in the absence of an officially recognised and accepted land border. The UN line was not intended to be the national boundary but rather a line showing where Israeli forces had been deployed in 1978, prior to the invasion of Lebanon. The Shebaa Farms fell on the Israeli side of the line but the marker wasn’t meant to settle the area’s status.

in the absence of an officially recognised and accepted land border

The roots of the border controversy in the Shebaa farmland lie in the clumsy manner France delineated the Syrian-Lebanese boundary during the Mandate years. Since 1920, maps located the area within Syria. However, for all practical matters, the area was considered to be part of Lebanon. French officials themselves noted this anomaly but did nothing to rectify it.

— Asher Kaufman, Middle East Journal Vol. 56, No. 4 (Autumn, 2002), pp. 576-595

[ckaihatsu]

Noted, and thanks -- I immediately thought of the way The Thing behaved in the movie of the same name:

Why is it that I'm not surprised to see this dehumanizing rhetoric coming from someone who denies Karl Marx's own racism (as shown straight from his own writings)?

I didn't *mean* for it to be dehumanizing -- it was an *impressionistic* aside to skinster, and it was meant to show a parallel of *function*. That's it.

You keep repeating your 'antisemitic Marx' accusation, but you haven't provided any quotation that shows *animosity* or *hatred* against the Jewish people, from him.

[ckaihatsu]

Nasser told the peacekeepers to away. And Muslim cry babies have been whining ever since that they got the asses handed to them.

So you're saying that Israel 'won' that land through military prowess -- that 'might makes right', and whoever is the most violent, destructive, and domineering also happens to be most deserving of their spoils.

No the only way Israel will get peace is if every attack against them is properly punished. That means losing land. Hamas, Hezbollah, these groups don't care about loss of life that's no punishment for them.

Well, at least I appreciate your forthrightness in acknowledging that Israel's territory is a matter of *warfare* -- both in how it *acquired* its land, and in what has to be done to *reclaim* the land *from* Israel. (Other people piddle around with an illusory 'two-state solution' and similar nonsense.)

Anyway President Trump has courageously recognised the annexation of the Golan including the Shebaa Farms. Candidate Biden has de-facto endorsed the wisdom of Trumps move. Correct me if I'm wrong but China Joe has no plans to de-recognise Israeli sovereignty.

I can't speak for either -- I'm not a bourgeois-electoralist.

[wat0n]

It is occupied territory and has been since 1967.

On June 7, 2000, the UN published what it called the Blue Line to determine whether Israel had fully withdrawn from Lebanese territory in the absence of an officially recognised and accepted land border. The UN line was not intended to be the national boundary but rather a line showing where Israeli forces had been deployed in 1978, prior to the invasion of Lebanon. The Shebaa Farms fell on the Israeli side of the line but the marker wasn’t meant to settle the area’s status.


The roots of the border controversy in the Shebaa farmland lie in the clumsy manner France delineated the Syrian-Lebanese boundary during the Mandate years. Since 1920, maps located the area within Syria. However, for all practical matters, the area was considered to be part of Lebanon. French officials themselves noted this anomaly but did nothing to rectify it.

— Asher Kaufman, Middle East Journal Vol. 56, No. 4 (Autumn, 2002), pp. 576-595

None of that proves it's Lebanese territory and I don't think I said it's Israeli. In fact I said it's Syrian.

Try not to engage in red herrings.

I didn't *mean* for it to be dehumanizing -- it was an *impressionistic* aside to skinster, and it was meant to show a parallel of *function*. That's it.

You keep repeating your 'antisemitic Marx' accusation, but you haven't provided any quotation that shows *animosity* or *hatred* against the Jewish people, from him.

Right, there is no animosity at all in saying that hucksterism is the religion of the Jews. Spare me this nonsense

[ingliz]

I said it's Syrian.

What does it matter what you say? Syria recognises Lebanon's claim to the Shebaa farms.

[wat0n]

What does it matter what you say? Syria agrees with Lebanon that Shebaa farms is part of Lebanon.

Has it ever signed a treaty ceding the territory to Lebanon? Or is it just one of those empty statements that doesn't lead to anything concrete on the matter and which is vacated the moment a formalization is requested by the Lebanese?

As I noted above, both Syrian and Lebanese maps since (at least) the 1960s have placed the area as Syrian.

[ckaihatsu]

You keep repeating your 'antisemitic Marx' accusation, but you haven't provided any quotation that shows *animosity* or *hatred* against the Jewish people, from him.

Right, there is no animosity at all in saying that hucksterism is the religion of the Jews. Spare me this nonsense

I'm sorry we have conflicting interpretations, and I'm not a scholar on Marx, but I still maintain that, from what I can tell, he was making an *empirical observation* using less-than-sensitive, unkind language. 'Hucksterism' can mean the *petty bourgeois*, which is my interpretation. I invite input on this from anyone who may be able to add something here.

[ingliz]

maps since (at least) the 1960s

Ottoman maps prove that the group of farms in the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights has belonged to Lebanon since (at least) 1918.

one of those empty statements

"Concerning the Shab'a farmlands, both Lebanon and Syria state that this land belongs to Lebanon."

— UN Press Release SC/6878, 18 June 2000

[wat0n]

Ottoman maps prove that the group of farms in the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights has belonged to Lebanon since (at least) 1918.

You should have worked as a consultant for the UNSC so you could share your great wisdom to correct their ways:

Security Council
Distr.
GENERAL
S/2000/460
22 May 2000

Original: ENGLISH

Report of the Secretary-General on the implementation of
Security Council resolutions 425 (1978) and 426 (1978)

...

17. On 15 May 2000, the United Nations received a map, dated 1966, from the Government of Lebanon which reflected the Government’s position that these farmlands were located in Lebanon. However, the United Nations is in possession of 10 other maps issued after 1966 by various Lebanese government institutions, including the Ministry of Defence and the army, all of which place the farmlands inside the Syrian Arab Republic. The United Nations has also examined six maps issued by the Government of the Syrian Arab Republic, including three maps since 1966, which place the farmlands inside the Syrian Arab Republic. On the basis of the Agreement on Disengagement between Israeli and Syrian forces of 31 May 1974 and its Protocol concerning the United Nations Disengagement Observer Force (UNDOF), which included maps initialled by Israel and the Syrian Arab Republic, the Shab’a farmlands fall within the scope of the area of operations of UNDOF. The area coming under the mandate of UNDOF has remained unchanged until the present time. It follows that in adopting resolutions 425 (1978) and 426 (1978), the Security Council could not have included as part of the UNIFIL area of operations an area which had already formed part of the UNDOF area of operations. It is worth noting that, notwithstanding the conflicting evidence to which I have alluded, and whatever the present understanding between Lebanon and the Syrian Arab Republic, these farmlands lie in an area occupied by Israel since 1967 and are therefore subject to Security Council resolutions 242 (1967) and 338 (1973) calling for an Israeli withdrawal from occupied territory. (A total of 81 maps were available to the United Nations from various sources dating from before and after 1966; 25 of these were issued by the Governments of Lebanon and the Syrian Arab Republic.)

...

"Concerning the Shab'a farmlands, both Lebanon and Syria state that this land belongs to Lebanon."

— UN Press Release SC/6878, 18 June 2000

A tune that would change as soon as Lebanon tried to exert any sovereignty over the farms.

Where's the cession treaty between them?