China pokes US in the eye with global digital rules proposal - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15118707
blackjack21 wrote:
1) We let China have steel, shoes, textiles, apparel, computers, electronics, televisions, most of the drug supply chain, most healthcare PPE, and utterly countless other examples. So you are wrong, late. It does get dumber than that. A lot dumber.


2) We don't know, or you don't know? The Chinese try to hack my servers all the time. A simple trace route proves that.

3) Isn't that a contradiction in terms? If it's regulated, is it still free?





1) That's the past. We need to invest in the future.

2) China's spying is mostly about business. Their approach is usually low cost and low tech. They are way behind the Russkies.

3) No, the Modern world is a package deal. Regulation has been part of that package since the 1800s. What you want is mercantilism, which is pre-capitalist. So you need a time machine to take you back at least 200 years, but more would be better.
#15118945
late wrote:And how would we do that?


Preferably drones to take out the leadership first. They are the ones who manipulate their races to be antagonists.

If you guys can target the drones on your own corrupt leaders afterwards I have no objections.


late wrote:And how would we keep ourselves from doing it?


Sorry, I think either the point of no return has been passed, or the need has always been there.
#15119146
Your corporations that set up shop in China got the bulk of the initial profit margins. Only decades later did Chinese firms benefit by launching their own brands after acquiring the industrial processes. Even then Apple has no issues selling its latest overpriced gadgets in China on brand power alone.

In short the Chinese did ALL the work, they continue to do all the work, they now have the consumption power to replace western luxury buyers, western companies made huge bank (and continue to do so) and you cry about muh unfair chynah? China did/does nothing wrong.
#15119177
Igor Antunov wrote:Your corporations that set up shop in China got the bulk of the initial profit margins. Only decades later did Chinese firms benefit by launching their own brands after acquiring the industrial processes. Even then Apple has no issues selling its latest overpriced gadgets in China on brand power alone.

In short the Chinese did ALL the work, they continue to do all the work, they now have the consumption power to replace western luxury buyers, western companies made huge bank (and continue to do so) and you cry about muh unfair chynah? China did/does nothing wrong.


China beat the West at its own game. That's why Trump wants to punish China.
#15119181
Igor Antunov wrote:In short the Chinese did ALL the work, they continue to do all the work, they now have the consumption power to replace western luxury buyers, western companies made huge bank (and continue to do so) and you cry about muh unfair chynah? China did/does nothing wrong.



True, nothing unfair with this part. Even if there was no IP theft out of China, this would have happened anyway.
#15119208
blackjack21 wrote:Building a search engine isn't exactly rocket science anymore. Just ban Google from Europe and build your own search engine.


What purpose would that serve? The idea that Google only benefits Americans is silly. I can use Google, I can buy Google stocks, I can even work at Google where I live. Furthermore, as long as Google generates a large share of its revenue in Europe, it has a lot of leverage over the company, for example when it comes to anti-trust laws or data protection.

That's not to say that Google's dominant market position is a good thing, but regional bans just create regional monopolies and solve nothing.

Igor Antunov wrote:In short the Chinese did ALL the work, they continue to do all the work, they now have the consumption power to replace western luxury buyers, western companies made huge bank (and continue to do so) and you cry about muh unfair chynah? China did/does nothing wrong.


China goes on a shopping spree in the West while at the same time protecting its own companies from takeovers. It also puts communist party representatives in every company. That's a shitty practice. American companies can buy European ones and vice versa (in fact it's more or less balanced).
#15119359
Rugoz wrote:China goes on a shopping spree in the West while at the same time protecting its own companies from takeovers. It also puts communist party representatives in every company. That's a shitty practice. American companies can buy European ones and vice versa (in fact it's more or less balanced).


Despite being limited in their acquisitions, simply having ANY access to the Chinese labor market has made so many western companies so much richer. China allows partnerships, that is enough for most. And they continue to invest as a result. The fact is China is simply a much more favrouable investment option, so it safeguards its markets. Any western country is free to do the same.

As for Chinese purchases of foreign assets on foreign jurisdictions, that carries with it great risk, as many have simply been lost/confiscated. China just packs its bags and moves on. See Libya. Tens of billions invested, all lost and stolen by western companies after military action. 20,000 chinese investors had to be shipped out of that now failed state. Only a single example of a default turning into a new agreement beneficial to china (the port lease in sri lanka) but that can be revoked at any time because china has zero military presence there. Overall when it comes to the west and Africa, China does not trap people into debts, it forgives debts and takes huge losses just to keep trade going. Its goal are raw resources and some finished goods, not imperialism or regime change.

Image

There has been a huge amount of projection from the west these days in regards to China, and its frankly comical as it couldn't be further from reality.
#15119431
Igor Antunov wrote:Despite being limited in their acquisitions, simply having ANY access to the Chinese labor market has made so many western companies so much richer. China allows partnerships, that is enough for most. And they continue to invest as a result. The fact is China is simply a much more favrouable investment option, so it safeguards its markets. Any western country is free to do the same.

As for Chinese purchases of foreign assets on foreign jurisdictions, that carries with it great risk, as many have simply been lost/confiscated. China just packs its bags and moves on. See Libya. Tens of billions invested, all lost and stolen by western companies after military action. 20,000 chinese investors had to be shipped out of that now failed state. Only a single example of a default turning into a new agreement beneficial to china (the port lease in sri lanka) but that can be revoked at any time because china has zero military presence there. Overall when it comes to the west and Africa, China does not trap people into debts, it forgives debts and takes huge losses just to keep trade going. Its goal are raw resources and some finished goods, not imperialism or regime change.


If China is the much more favourable investment option, why has China a negative FDI balance with the EU?

Image

No doubt China makes it deliberately less attractive. In any case, it's true, Western countries are allowed to do the same, and they are, given that Xi's rule has more or less destroyed the hope of China opening up anytime soon.

As for Africa. Your external debt statistic in no way shows that China is "forgiving debt" and taking "huge losses". Please provide actual evidence that China forgives more debt to African countries than the West.
#15119443
The amount of credence that should be given to any gambit of this nature is directly proportional to the efficacy of the proposed methods of enforcement.

The old adage, 'Trust, but verify,'* still obtains.

Regards, stay safe 'n well. Remember the Big 3: masks, hand washing and physical distancing.

* Attr. to Mr. Henry Kissinger.
#15119453
Rugoz wrote:If China is the much more favourable investment option, why has China a negative FDI balance with the EU?

Image

No doubt China makes it deliberately less attractive. In any case, it's true, Western countries are allowed to do the same, and they are, given that Xi's rule has more or less destroyed the hope of China opening up anytime soon.

As for Africa. Your external debt statistic in no way shows that China is "forgiving debt" and taking "huge losses". Please provide actual evidence that China forgives more debt to African countries than the West.


Because China is in the process of buying up much of Europe's infrastructure, and building more. It has so much industrial capacity to export, mere numbers can be misleading. It is in the process of building massively extensive economic links between itself and all of afro-eurasia.

As for china 'opening up' you mean handing over its entire financial system to american banksters? lol no. See Russia in the early 90's. Not gonna happen ever again. Western 'experts' can't even handle their own shit. US economy is imploding.
#15119487
Igor Antunov wrote:Despite being limited in their acquisitions, simply having ANY access to the Chinese labor market has made so many western companies so much richer. China allows partnerships, that is enough for most. And they continue to invest as a result. The fact is China is simply a much more favrouable investment option, so it safeguards its markets. Any western country is free to do the same.

China is a favorable investment destination IN SPITE OF the limited control of Chinese assets by foreigners. So the advantages must be huge if they can eclipse the "control-freak-advantages" (use your money to eventually control other countries) that other less protective nations offer.

What are those advantages that China has that are so hugely important?

Well, for starters, Americans need 10,000 dollars extra for a car, an 4,000 dollars extra for private health insurance over the equivalent Chinese worker. Both of these extra-costs for American labor are the result of the parasite class of rentiers. No one on Earth wants to pay more for merchanidise so that GM and Humana have richer shareholders. This motivates no one.

So American capitalists themselves have ensured that America is a bad investment, and then American capital moved its investments to China, almost acknowleging their own poison influence on our productivity.
#15120199
Even if the typical working age American went back to school and completed a STEM discipline, then went to work 100+ hours a week for three different employers, the Chinese workers would still generate more wealth for these technology companies and manufacturers, because there are 4-5x more of them and they all get STEM education by default.

Sigh, this penis measuring contest is moot, the US oligarchs should be refocusing their efforts on rebuilding their economy to benefit the domestic workforce, not competing abroad for big boi points with a much bigger boi. So much idealist marxism running rampant across the US (literally). Soon it could spiral out of control and countries like Russia or China won't hesitate to feed the unrest. This isn't the 1800's, China has industrialized. This is self betterment time.

This upcoming US election is going to be a shit-show, isn't it...
#15120277
Igor Antunov wrote:Because China is in the process of buying up much of Europe's infrastructure, and building more. It has so much industrial capacity to export, mere numbers can be misleading. It is in the process of building massively extensive economic links between itself and all of afro-eurasia.

As for china 'opening up' you mean handing over its entire financial system to american banksters? lol no. See Russia in the early 90's. Not gonna happen ever again. Western 'experts' can't even handle their own shit. US economy is imploding.


- "Infrastructure"? Here's where China's investment went in 2019 (is has dropped considerably since 2016):
Overall, the consumer products and services sector was the top recipient of Chinese FDI in Europe, attracting more than 40% of the total. Despite increased European scrutiny around Chinese investment in tech-related sectors, ICT attracted the second largest share of Chinese investment, followed by the automotive sector.

https://rhg.com/research/chinese-fdi-in ... 19-update/


- No, it doesn't only concern the financial sector. In any case, if China fears Western economic influence, you can hardly blame the West for doing the same, given China literally places communist party lackeys in every company.
#15120284
The United States of America has, in the past few years, withdrawn from a number of forums at which it could present its views and attempt to influence world opinion.* It should come as no surprise that other political powers would move to fill the openings created.

It's amusing that the US, in its actions against TikTok, may be attempting the same transfer of intellectual property that it has accused China of doing.

Regards, stay safe 'n well. Remember the Big 3: masks, hand washing and physical distancing.

* This is also shown in the 'trade war' with China in lieu of going to the world court for resolution. The US has, in the past, done rather well in cases brought before that body.
#15120295
Torus34 wrote:It's amusing that the US, in its actions against TikTok, may be attempting the same transfer of intellectual property that it has accused China of doing.


It sets a precedent. If Europe and China take the same measures against Facebook or other digital platforms, corporate America is going to take a hit.

The European Court of Justice has already ruled against data transfers from Europe to the US because the US does not respect our private data.

The 5-eyes alliances is far more intrusive than China will ever be.

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