[skinster]

Both China and the US are imperial powers

Only one of these states is imperialist. Unless you have evidence to support both are, please share. I don't think you have though, since I've asked you (and others) repeatedly and you've come up with zilch.

[Atlantis]

@skinster, China has been an imperial power 3,000 years before the US even existed. The system is geared to replace the US as the first imperial power on the planet, today more than ever before. What's so hard to understand about that?

[skinster]

Can you give an example of Chinese imperialism today?

[QatzelOk]

You indirectly support imperialism by claiming that everybody does it.

I didn't claim that everybody does it.

I claimed that one superpower has been doing it for the last hundred years or so (the USA) and just before that, its "mother colonial nation" Great Britain was "doing it" for a few centuries.

This "mega empire" forced the rest of the world to industrialize (or be industrialized by us), and to arm itself to the teeth (or be colonized by us).

You can't pretend that nations like China, Russia, and Iran are doing the violent activities that they do in order to "start an empire" because in virtually every case, what they are doing is fighting to not be absorbed into an empire that destroys the unique values of everything it touches.

And I want to add that this "forced arming" of the world in order to play some kind of upper class twit "great game" has ruined many cultures and nations that got no benefit from it. The non-stop aggression towards the USSR greatly reduced its potential to evolve in a social way. Likewise the non-stop aggression against China, Iran, and even Yemen and Venezuela (no enemy is too weak for the rich to attack).

Keep beating up your neighbors, and you will soon find that they are a bit on the aggressive side. Just like you always were to them. Abuse creates abusers, and fear creates violence.

[Atlantis]

I claimed that one superpower has been doing it for the last hundred years or so (the USA) and just before that, its "mother colonial nation" Great Britain was "doing it" for a few centuries.

This "mega empire" forced the rest of the world to industrialize (or be industrialized by us), and to arm itself to the teeth (or be colonized by us).

You can't pretend that nations like China, Russia, and Iran are doing the violent activities that they do in order to "start an empire" because in virtually every case, what they are doing is fighting to not be absorbed into an empire that destroys the unique values of everything it touches.

And I want to add that this "forced arming" of the world in order to play some kind of upper class twit "great game" has ruined many cultures and nations that got no benefit from it. The non-stop aggression towards the USSR greatly reduced its potential to evolve in a social way. Likewise the non-stop aggression against China, Iran, and even Yemen and Venezuela (no enemy is too weak for the rich to attack).

Keep beating up your neighbors, and you will soon find that they are a bit on the aggressive side. Just like you always were to them. Abuse creates abusers, and fear creates violence.

It is true that the imperial expansion of one country forces other countries to defend themselves against the imperialist threat and maybe even become imperial powers themselves. For example, the united German states of 19th century adopted imperialist policies because Germany's neighbors followed imperial policies and because the small German states had been the victims of foreign invasions for centuries.

That doesn't apply to China. China was the victim of the Mongol, Manchu and Japanese invasions and, most of all, of the hubris of imperial China that failed to modernize even though it was offered Western science on a silver platter 5 centuries ago. Because of its inability to adapt, it took China 5 centuries to modernize, what Japan managed in less than 5 decades.

Even the Anglos didn't invent imperialism. Before Europe went on its colonial conquest, it had been victim of Mongol, Arab, Ottoman, etc., imperial aggression. Many centuries before European colonials went into the slave trade, the Arabs traded African and European slaves. Even in the 19th century, there were still cases of white Europeans being sold as slaves in North Africa. The Muslim armies went on conquering as long as they had the better technology. That changes with the European Renaissance.

As much as we may detest Yankee imperialism, Chinese and other imperialist powers never went away. They are just waiting for their turn to come back. Ask the Tibetans if they enjoy Chinese occupation.

[skinster]

Can you give an example of Chinese imperialism today?

[Patrickov]

Read #15129827. Wicked Chinese apologists simply refuse to accept it, even if it is presented not necessarily as a bad thing.

[QatzelOk]

...it took China 5 centuries to modernize, what Japan managed in less than 5 decades...

So modernizing is what everyone must do, ...or else?

China's slowness to follow the same schedule of TINA (there is no alternative) modernization proves that it is imperial in the post-Modern period we are no living?

That it is flawed because it didn't follow the perfect modernization playbook?

What about China's failure to accept the body and blood of Christ into its bloodstream? Are they also paying for that?

[Sivad]

Can you give an example of Chinese imperialism today?

Well aside from the 1.5 billion human beings within China proper being brutally subjugated by the CCP, the Han Imperium has also established dominion over a number of regions like Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, Hong Kong, and Macau that would all prefer to go their own way. That's imperialism. China is an empire just within its own borders and beyond its borders it also engages in all kinds of abusive and coercive imperialist behaviours.

[Rancid]

imperialist behaviours.

Apparently opening a military base in djibouti isn't imperialism. I guess that means all those US military bases aren't imperialism either...

[Sivad]

The PRC has also repeatedly demonstrated clear imperial ambitions toward Taiwan.

[Rancid]

The PRC has also repeatedly demonstrated clear imperial ambitions toward Taiwan.

Indeed, they also openly say they want to establish a new order under their direction (Xi Jingpings speeches are all over the internet, this shit isn't conspiracy, its out in the fucking open, skinster is willfully ignorant). If that's not the definition of imperialist intentions (along with their obvious imperialist actions), then there is basically no definition of the word. It's why I always call bullshit on skinster in particular for claiming to be "anti-imperialist."

I know that I shit on you for being "an asshole", but there is a time and place for it. I think this is one of these times and places to be an ass. People like skinster and Qatz (which I often agree with..Qatz that is) are just bat shit crazy for thinking China is going to be some sort of beneficial entity/force for the world. The CCP very clearly wants to establish an ethno-nationalist culture within their borders and control the direction of the planet. I mean fuck, the CCP are basically Nazis in this respect, and Qatz and Skinster dig it! The hilarity is that Qatz and Skinster aren't Chinese, so the CCP isn't gonna give a fuck about them after they succeed in establishing their hegemony. They are basically useful idiots to the CCP.

It sucks, because I really do not want to see any sort of war break out with China and the rest of the world, but it certainly feels like its heading that way. I have half Asian kids, and an Asian wife, and they will suffer a lot of discrimination if this were to happen (it doesn't matter that my Wife's family is from Hong Kong and that they are anti-CCP, racist just look at the surface). This is why I wish to see China put in check by the rest of the world (it can't be just the US alone either) before it gets to the point a war breaks out. All the while we have the Qatz and Skinsters of the world incorrectly believing they are going to unite the workers of the world, spread socialist, whatever... that is not China's goal. It is so plainly obvious that you have to be a fucking retard to believe anything like that.

[Sivad]

Indeed, they also openly say they want to establish a new order under their direction (Xi Jingpings speeches are all over the internet, this shit isn't conspiracy, its out in the fucking open, skinster is willfully ignorant). If that's not the definition of imperialist intentions (along with their obvious imperialist actions), then there is basically no definition of the word.

[...]

The CCP very clearly wants to establish an ethno-nationalist culture within their borders and control the direction of the planet. I mean fuck, the CCP are basically Nazis in this respect

Yeah, it's definitely an evil empire and the scary thing is it doesn't have any of the internal checks on imperialism that we have in Western society. If the West didn't have the freedom to question and dissent, Western imperialism would have been a whole hell of a lot nastier. Just imagine what Western imperialism would have been if the Nazis won, that's what a unipolar world with China as its sole superpower would be like.

[QatzelOk]

If the West didn't have the freedom to question and dissent, Western imperialism would have been a whole hell of a lot nastier.

How is that possible?

Our dissent was always squashed by religious superstition, backroom deals between the Church, Elite, etc., widespread ignorance, and then by mass media and work slavery in the current age.

What is really remarkable is what docile little lemmings Westerners are, including the Nazis who you mentioned. Like you are suppose to if you are Western because it makes us feel less nasty.

Other countries aren't even allowed to put together their own economic systems with "the West" still existing in this world. The Nazis might not have gone this far.... who knows. We got their madman scientists to create poisons and bombs for the West, but that's about all we wanted from Germany at that time, in help us "do good in the world." (Operation Paperclip)

[Sivad]

^ @QatzelOk is employing the old balls-in-your-face-stupid gambit. It's a strategy crazy people resort to out of sheer desperation when they've completely lost the argument but they don't want to concede. They start saying the stupidest shit imaginable in the hope that they can confuse people into thinking that maybe there is something to what they're saying because nobody would just start making up such blatantly retarded shit. But I can assure you there are definitely people out there who are completely out of their fucking minds and they will say anything no matter how preposterous if they think it'll help keep their bullshit aloft.

[QatzelOk]

^ @QatzelOk is employing the old balls-in-your-face-stupid gambit. It's a strategy crazy people resort to out of sheer desperation when they've completely lost the argument but they don't want to concede. They start saying the stupidest shit imaginable in the hope that they can confuse people into thinking that maybe there is something to what they're saying because nobody would just start making up such blatantly retarded shit. But I can assure you there are definitely people out there who are completely out of their fucking minds and they will say anything no matter how preposterous if they think it'll help keep their bullshit aloft.

In a place and time where mass media determines what is "real," it's a badge of honor to be called "crazy." In this case, the "crazy" thing that I have noted is how media entertainment (this includes religious institutions and their entertaining texts) have made a significant number of humans docile to the point where they will willing contribute to their own extinction.

My opinion - that this is a bad thing to be docile to the point of going extinct - is "crazy" to you because it's not on TV.

Commercial media is a big part of the private sector - selling both its useless products and its poison ideology. So if China is cracking down on this, it's about time!

[Sivad]

^ see what I'm saying?

[skinster]

Well aside from the 1.5 billion human beings within China proper being brutally subjugated by the CCP, the Han Imperium has also established dominion over a number of regions like Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, Hong Kong, and Macau that would all prefer to go their own way. That's imperialism.

Actually, that's not. But feel free to repeatedly embarrass yourself, I'm here for it.

If the West didn't have the freedom to question and dissent, Western imperialism would have been a whole hell of a lot nastier.

[Sivad]

repeatedly embarrass yourself

Yeah, I've totally embarrassed myself by not adopting the convoluted definition of imperialism held by delusional political cultists in deep pathological denial about ChiCom gulagism.

[skinster]

Sivad doesn't know what words he uses mean.