CCP announces plan to take control of China's private sector - Page 6 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15129297
QatzelOk wrote:As Igor did a few posts back, I am going to stress the important difference between China's public banking system, AND the private for-profit banking systems of the USA, British Empire, Roman Empire and Greek Empire. I think that it's really the banking systems of the latter kind (for profit) that caused most of the death and destruction of empire.


I'm not following you. Chinese banks are for profit ventures, as are most Chinese companies.
#15129307
Random American wrote:I think we should cut economic ties with them anyway.


That's not practically possible, but what what is starting to happen is critical industries are being seeded/supported by governments in the west. As an example, both the EU and US are each starting to investing on restoring/building out semiconductor development and dmanufacturing capacity in North America and Europe. There is semiconductor manufacturing capacity in the US and the EU, but no where near enough of a capacity to even fill defense industry needs.

Relying on Taiwan who is home to the single most important semiconductor producer in the world (TSMC) is proving to be risky. Given China's intent to take it over eventually. If China ever "liberates" Taiwan, they will hold the entire world's semiconductor supply hostage, this is no exaggeration.
#15129310
Rancid wrote:That's not practically possible, but what what is starting to happen is critical industries are being seeded/supported by governments in the west. As an example, both the EU and US are each starting to investing on restoring/building out semiconductor development and dmanufacturing capacity in North America and Europe. There is semiconductor manufacturing capacity in the US and the EU, but no where near enough of a capacity to even fill defense industry needs.

Relying on Taiwan who is home to the single most important semiconductor producer in the world (TSMC) is proving to be risky. Given China's intent to take it over eventually. If China ever "liberates" Taiwan, they will hold the entire world's semiconductor supply hostage, this is no exaggeration.


Not quite. Most covid relief government money in the last 6 months went to propping up the stock markets. There is barely any grassroots industry funding going on, especially in the tech sector. Europe is an awful market for tech startups, and Global Foundries for example is stuck on a broken 10nm node. China mainland's SMIC is already experimenting with a viable 7nm node without having to rely on Dutch and Japanese lithographic machines. Meanwhile TSMC can't possibly cut ties to the mainland, its entire supply chain and resource base is there. At the same time China abstained from pumping money into its markets and focused on just doubling up on the tech sector.

Similarly, the move to 3rd countries never happened. Turns out Chinese manufacturers are the ones setting up shop in Vietnam and Japan is openly skirting US technology export sanctions on Chinese companies by opening up new manufacturing sites in China.

And you leave out something key, the rare earth metals market that drives the tech sector. China still produces 98% of that shit and there ain't no western country on earth that has the political willpower to open up a bunch of toxic mines in this 'save the trees' economy. And where there is will outside of China, it is Chinese companies that are investing into eg. Lithium and other deposits abroad. Massive reserves were discovered in xinjiang recently, around the same time the 'muh fake genosyd' stories started cropping up in western media. The swine squeal with apparent timing and chorus.

The ship has uh...sailed.
#15129503
Rancid wrote:I'm not following you. Chinese banks are for profit ventures, as are most Chinese companies.

Yes, but they're 100% backed by the government, and thus, tightly regulated to the point of being "public," meaning "for the public good."

Learning from China wrote:China is different. The bulk of borrowing, particularly by local government, is for investment, primarily in infrastructure. Borrowing therefore creates lasting assets – roads, subways, housing etc. Assets in turn create revenue streams directly, indirectly, or both. Direct revenues are fares, rents, tolls, etc. Indirect revenues are generated as infrastructure investment aids economic growth, yielding taxes, and has well-known effects in raising land values – land sales being one of Chinese local government’s biggest sources of income.


The USA, on the other hand, like Western Europe, has a banking system based on economic royalty collecting the spoils on all its scams and rackets against Mr. and Mrs. Sucker and Loser.

Very different, and very non-public. Like the Roman and Greek Empires, and British, and Napoleon...
#15129604
QatzelOk wrote:Yes, but they're 100% backed by the government, and thus, tightly regulated to the point of being "public," meaning "for the public good."


For the public good, assuming you never criticize or cross the CCP. A fact you all willfully and dangerously ignore.

Here's the thing, you call yourself an anti-imperialist, yet you openly support a growing power with very clearly stated imperialistic desires (there's no secret there). It's a very spinless and weaseling position to take. Don't get me wrong, it's fine if you want to support China (a country that would throw you to the curve since you're not even ethnic Chinese), but you cannot claim you are anti-imperialist, which is the banner a lot of people like you hide behind. It's a logical fallacy. If you want to say it correct, you need to be more precise and say that you are anti-american imperialism, and pro-chinese imperialism. Many of you don't do that, so you're cowards.

I can stand on the street corner and say Trump is moron conman. A Chinese citizen cannot do the same with Xi Jingping or any other CCP officials. SO long as that is true, the West and Latin America, with all its faults will always be better than China.

The only person that I think is more straight forward and honest about their stance is Igor (as far as I can tell). He's the only one I can respect out of the China imperialism love fest in pofo. The rest of you are full of shit. He doesn't lie to himself like you and skinster do.

I've told you, I always either extremely agree with you, or extremely disagree with you, this is a case where I'm in total disagreement with you. You are willfully just asking for another bully to take the place of the current bully, and the other bully is objectively worse.
#15129641
Rancid wrote:...you call yourself an anti-imperialist, yet you openly support a growing power with very clearly stated imperialistic desires (there's no secret there). ...

Rancid, putting aside all the cultural and normative differences between various cultures and peoples, POWER has a universal corrupting influence on our species. Technology has allowed some to be able to DOMINATE others.

But unlike the West, China had a revolution to fight against power abuse in the hands of oligarchs. So did Russia. So did Cuba, Vietnam, Korea, and a host of other countries that the West's oligarchy subsequently bombed with chemicals.

When you talk about "clearly stated" objectives, you are talking about the way in which Western media has spun the words or actions of "the enemy that we've been trying to destroy with chemical weapons for 100 years."

This kind of poisons any "truth" that might leak out of mainstream commercial media.
#15129768
Rancid wrote:Here's the thing, you call yourself an anti-imperialist, yet you openly support a growing power with very clearly stated imperialistic desires (there's no secret there). It's a very spinless and weaseling position to take. Don't get me wrong, it's fine if you want to support China (a country that would throw you to the curve since you're not even ethnic Chinese), but you cannot claim you are anti-imperialist, which is the banner a lot of people like you hide behind. It's a logical fallacy. If you want to say it correct, you need to be more precise and say that you are anti-american imperialism, and pro-chinese imperialism. Many of you don't do that, so you're cowards.

The only person that I think is more straight forward and honest about their stance is Igor (as far as I can tell). He's the only one I can respect out of the China imperialism love fest in pofo. The rest of you are full of shit. He doesn't lie to himself like you and skinster do.


How is China imperialist again? You guys who claim that are never able to answer that question. Let's see if it happens this time...
#15129827
To be fair, given China's history, even keeping it within its current borders requires Imperialism.

However, to be specific:

1. The South China Sea dispute. True that the West had been complicit (the 9-dash was first claimed in 1947 before anyone else in the area were independent), but crossing into a body of water depended by so many people around it does not help its image.

2. The struggle with Japan in the vast sea between them. East China Sea is believed to contain vast oil resources and China did not pay considerable attention to it until the 1990s (before that they did not encourage Diaoyutai activists as much). The area of the Sea once belonged to Ryukyu Kingdom, a tributary to the Chinese Empire during the Ming and Qing Dynasties. Seeking a (re-)establishment of such an area into its sphere of influence can only be regarded as Imperialism.

3. The general Chinese public's desire to return to their glorious times. Even the slogan on Tiananmen "Long Live the Unification of the People in the World" (世界人民大团结万岁) tells a lot on their true ambitions -- they think they should represent all the people in the World.

4. The National Security Law "for" HK "grants" China with de jure ability to persecute anybody in the world who voice in opposition to its supremacy over the nation. This means anybody can face what Julian Assange is (according to you and your accomplices) facing if the Chinese have the ability to do so. If you think what the West doing to Julian Assange is Imperialism, why isn't China writing similar provision into law Imperialism?


Of course, I am a Chinese so I know better.
#15129895
Trying to pinpoint the qualities that make China imperialistic, Patrickov wrote:1. The South China Sea dispute.
2. The struggle with Japan
3. The general Chinese public's desire to return to their glorious times.
4. China writing similar provision into law Imperialism?[/b]

These things you mention are mearly disputes or disagreements with other states.

To "prove" imperialism, you need to make a list of governments China has overthrown, countries it has bombed into submission, and international institutions it has contaminated with its own narrow national interests.

If "all dat you got" is what's listed above, you have actually defended China against being imperialistic. But there is, of course, more. You're just not looking in the correct places because -- the causes of imperialism are universal and not culturally specific. A bad system leads to imperialism - not a bad people or bad culture.
#15129931
QatzelOk wrote:But there is, of course, more. You're just not looking in the correct places because -- the causes of imperialism are universal and not culturally specific. A bad system leads to imperialism - not a bad people or bad culture.


True, imperialism is a function of the system. The "imperial presidency" and the two party system coupled with the plutocracy and monopoly capitalism guarantee that the US will always be hardwired to imperialism. Due to its decentralized decision-making process, the EU is the only defense against imperialism.

The power of the Chinese president is even greater and the hierarchical structure of the CCP centralizes power even more than in the US. Thus, China is an imperial power that's not had enough opportunities to implement imperial policies. But make not mistake about it, anybody who knows anything about China also knows that they'll be far more ruthless in pursuing imperial policies than the US. I'm saying that as somebody who hates Yankee imperialism.
#15129940
Rancid wrote:You sure about that? Check out all the debt and port deals they've done in African and South Asia. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if their belt and road initiative is full of unfavorable shit to the workers of all the nations they are pulling in for that.

I disagree. Though, I would phrase it as, there is more equivalence than not, and ultimately just as much insidiousness as the west.

Engage the world differently, yes, but fundamentally, they are after the same thing (millitary and economic supremacy). Thus, they are the same in the end.

By the way, I do not expect you to change you mind on any of this. :)


Indeed it is and the figures provided by Rugoz show that China is about to surpass the World Bank in holding African debt.

China is not masking her intentions at all. All her actions and newfound confidence and arrogance speak of one thing only. Her intention to dominate the global economy, infrastructure & relations to very much of our detriment. China is boycotting Australia because Australia called for an independent enquiry on the cause of Covid-19. She is belligerent and threatens with military force all her neighbours while engaging in internal fascist suppression policies. She is proactively demanding open-access to western markets while keeping China closed to western companies!

Why would such a country & regime enjoy a privileged partnership with a bloc that is bigger, stronger & richer than it and which China is actively trying to undermine? :eh:

Nevertheless, China has already succeeded in this by making bilateral deals with several western countries picking them out one by one.
#15129995
QatzelOk wrote:To "prove" imperialism, you need to make a list of governments China has overthrown, countries it has bombed into submission, and international institutions it has contaminated with its own narrow national interests.


Imperialism does not require overthrowing any government or bomb someone else into submission, mere intimidation works. But even for this moved goalposts (which you always do, because China apologists like you already have your conclusions), China still qualifies.

Says for "bombing others into submission", South Korea 1950-53; India 1962 and 2020; Vietnam 1980 all qualify. China also has various missiles targeting Taiwan, which is de facto independent.

WHO or even the UN as a whole is obviously contaminated by China. The WHO response to the Wuhan Pneumonia in the initial stage was lackluster at best. (of course, Westerners had a considerable share of guilt themselves, but it's their own problem). Even a local paper allegedly pro-China accepts this narrative.


EDIT: As I said in the Maduro thread, it is a waste of time arguing with totalitarian regime / nation supporters. This post is simply to show others how ridiculous China apologists are.

EDIT 2:
Unlike many PoFo'ers, I am not against Imperialism in general, but I am against Imperialism by nations with oppressive regimes, because such countries cannot be expected to be benevolent at all -- even the common people in these countries are oppressive. For all the faults of the British, American or even the French, at least they have developed a good enough system internally that their colonial actions are well scrutinised. The same cannot be said for China.
#15130129
Patrickov wrote:For all the faults of the British, American or even the French, at least they have developed a good enough system internally that their colonial actions are well scrutinised.

This is simply untrue.

These countries have "been on top of the game" for so long that they are masters at hiding their atrocities, and coaxing good-natured people into performing them.

It is into "these rules" that China found itself after narrowly escaping being colonized itself by European colonial powers during the last few centuries.

If China simply pursued honest trade practices, non-violence, and transparency, it would be eliminated in no time by lying, thieving, totalitarian colonial powers from Europe and its genocided nation-building projects in North America and beyond.

This is a major problem for ALL DEVOLOPING countries trying to "come of age" in a field dominated by Nazi-like foreign policies from virtually all developed nations. The dupes in these countries (their citizens - us!) are no more innocent than all those blonde German chicks who baked apple strudel for the SS.

Believing your countries national lies doesn't absolve one of the guilt of profiting from intentional ignorance.

The same cannot be said for China.

Yeah, sure. China is more evil. China doesn't play by "the rules."

Tell me, how can the Chinese increase their relative prosperity if they DON'T imitate the developed colonial powers? Would it even be possible, and do you even care about this other "billion" people?

Are the Chinese supposed to just "be nice" and stay poor and vulnerable to Western aggression?
#15130138
QatzelOk wrote:If China simply pursued honest trade practices, non-violence, and transparency, it would be eliminated in no time by lying, thieving, totalitarian colonial powers from Europe and its genocided nation-building projects in North America and beyond.

...

Tell me, how can the Chinese increase their relative prosperity if they DON'T imitate the developed colonial powers? Would it even be possible, and do you even care about this other "billion" people?

...

Are the Chinese supposed to just "be nice" and stay poor and vulnerable to Western aggression?


Laughable.

First, China has so many people that no one can exterminate them -- only the other way round is possible. Did the British succeed in exterminating the people on the Indian subcontinent?

Second, are you saying, "the Chinese atrocities are justified because the Chinese are simply following the Western footsteps"? This fully demonstrates how bad your judgement is. Why I think the West is better NOW is exactly because they had committed so MANY atrocities before, and all of them are so well known, that people nowadays have so many means to protect themselves against Western Imperialism NOW -- and frankly, the best way to do it is exactly to make the place under their jurisdiction. That way they have responsibility to protect us, just like how YOU are protected NOW. Don't think I am so stupid that I would deny the atrocities existence. I have been arguing with you "socialists" or "anti-Imperialists" for so long, are you that dense to believe that I will still fall for that?

Third, for a millionth time, I am Chinese, not American or British. Stop saying "your nation" as if I am a White American or British. But on the latter question you pose to me, I will gladly say: If the Chinese cannot do it like what the European countries are run now, they do NOT deserve the prosperity they have got over these 40 years, and they do deserve Western "aggression".
#15130152
@QatzelOk, the Chinese pursued imperial policies long before the European colonial powers arrived on the scene. Imperialism is at the very core of the Middle Kingdom. All other countries are vassals that have to pay tribute to the Court in Beijing. If Beijing for a time doesn't have the means to enforce the vassalage that doesn't mean the Chinese have abandoned the imperial policy. They see the few centuries of Western domination as a short interlude in Chinese imperial rule which will be re-established sooner or later. The belief in the superiority of Chinese culture and in that all other people have to submit to the superior Chinese culture is deeply ingrained in the Chinese mind.
#15130345
Atlantis wrote:...the Chinese pursued imperial policies long before the European colonial powers arrived on the scene.

Of course, many dynasties have taken their place in the dustbin of history. But what I was saying is that the NATURE and ACTIONS of China, in the Modern Age, have changed in order to defend against the unique challenges of modern warfare and society. Like the USSR, China could not simply "go its own way" in a world of well-armed capitalist armies and incredibly naive populations in these countries willing to kill anyone, anytime, if the Modern propaganda is strong enough (and their lives have been reduced to something pathetic enough).

I am not pro or anti China, by the way. I am pro-everyone, and I find many encouraging things in the level of equality that China has managed, up to the present time.

But Chinese are not super-human either, and the non-stop warring of competetive nation-states is just as likely to destroy China's current system as it destroyed Soviet communism, Yugoslave socialism, and Latin American pink tides.

And for these reasons, I support the "reigning in" of capitalism and of the oligarchy itself. Across the planet.
#15130377
@QatzelOk, China certainly isn't egalitarian. There are more billionaires in the Chinese people's congress than in any other parliament worldwide. There is a close-nit network of party officials and business people who bend the law to fill their own pockets.

China is using state capitalism to give its own oligarchs an advantage over companies that have to play by the rules of the market economy. There are only two ways of addressing this problem, either China will start playing by the rules or Chinese entities have to be excluded from the market.

China won't collapse like the Soviet Union. It's type of state capitalism follows in the same path as the industrial policy employed by Japan and South Korea to build a domestic industry, with the difference that the latter will conform to the rules while China is big enough to make its own rules.
#15130619
Atlantis wrote:China is using state capitalism to give its own oligarchs an advantage over companies that have to play by the rules of the market economy. There are only two ways of addressing this problem, either China will start playing by the rules or Chinese entities have to be excluded from the market.

Does everyone else play fair? (answer: no)

If not, why is China supposed to? (answer: to ensure that the same empire always wins)

Will the Great Game end with human extinction? (answer: when has collapse ever stopped a great game?)
#15130668
QatzelOk wrote:Does everyone else play fair? (answer: no)


You indirectly support imperialism by claiming that everybody does it.

No, not everybody does it. No, it's not the only way of interreacting between nations. No, imperialism is not unavoidable. Imperialism is self-destructive and if humans want to avoid self-destruction they have to find another way of living with each other.

After centuries of killing each other, Europeans have learned to cooperate by peaceful coexistence and by respecting rules all nations agreed to, rules that can be enforced by the European court of justice.

Both China and the US are imperial powers that refuse to abide by commonly agreed rules and that try to impose their own rules on others by extra-territorial law, just like the colonial powers imposed their rule on their colonies by extra-territorial law.

Since the majority of humans live in countries too small to establish their own empire, the solution is obviously to unite in order to resist imperial powers together, just like the EU.

Under Trump, the US has become a rogue superpower that openly flouts international law and multilateral agreements. The US has always done that in a covert way and by spreading the international-policeman narrative to hide its imperial intentions. We need to be grateful to Trump for revealing the true face of the US.
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