[annatar1914]

Why are you so sure he was returned, and didn't choose to return?

@Rancid ;

Nothing I have seen from the man in the past indicates his choosing to return to Russia strictly of his own free will, regardless of how this is spun in the public media to suggest otherwise. If Russia's special services wanted him dead before, he'd be dead. And if he is returning to the country they run politically, then he is probably being run, politically, by them. Regardless of the wishes of Western liberal elites and their retainers to think and plan otherwise. Perhaps he is a patriot and perhaps he is a good Orthodox Christian, I don't know, maybe he is not, connected as he is to shady people both east and west. His return to Russia is theater, just as was his leaving Russia.

I am not speaking of the man personally; he is actually allegedly in trouble on criminal charges related to the defrauding of a Western corporation after all, and I suspect that the truth of who and what Navalny is is more complicated than a regular Western audience can usually handle. They like their good guys to be good and our bad guys to be bad, and all problems resolved in an hour's time so we can catch the next show on TV. Real life isn't like that.

[noemon]

Yeah, as you know I'm a big proponent of the theory that non-westerners are subhuman and can't govern themselves. The non-Aryan hordes need a firm hand to keep them in place, much like what is needed when housetraining a puppy.

This is definitely what I think and definitely a reasonable interpretation of what I have said in this thread.

Do you have another explanation of what you said? I'd be glad to hear it. This does not explain or add anything, that's for sure.

You claimed that Russia will turn neo-Nazi just like Ukraine if liberal democracy happens. How is anyone supposed to interpret this?

Clearly, you don't trust the 'neo-nazi' Slavs with democracy. You 're arguing Putin is best for everybody cause "Nazi Slavs".

[Odiseizam]

Russia was an integral part of the Concert of Europe and every single European alliance for the past 500 years at least. Orthodox and Catholics have always been a single Church that got split.

Russia has always considered itself European.

@noemon 500 years, how so, maybe You have eaten 200 years, since the era of crusaders [1] Russia is in constant battle with european clans [1] until Peter d Great [1]

next, Orthodox and Catholics even before the schism were opponents on many levels, please dont open this debate here, I could go long and wide but think it has no meaning , I mean I get Your optimism I'll say anti-ww3 for sure, but have in mind that usA will never allow eU to merge with Russia, good example is Balkan where even do there was no assured alliance with Russia even less possible in 90's still they burned it to the ground in any case just because instantly serbians didnt bow to nato, imagine Germany to hug just little Russia they would fire with all their might, after all its build with their money

[noemon]

Concert of Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_of_Europe

All European states have been in constant battle with each other. That makes Russia even more European.

[Odiseizam]

Concert of Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_of_Europe

wow history again, I am stopping here my replaying its simply inconsistent comparison ... we could argue maybe in the History subforum

[noemon]

Russia is a part of Europe by history, blood, religion, politics. Russia established Switzerland as a buffer zone. Russia was responsible for the Swiss constitution and more especially for the security guarantees required for it to function. This jewel of democracy was penned by the Russian Foreign Minister who was Greek by blood and birth and later became the first Greek Prime Minister.

Russia should discover its rightful place and look at the future reborn again.

[Atlantis]

Unlike other Russian liberals, Navalny is willing to support candidates of Putin's nasty puppet opposition. That makes him more of a problem for the Kremlin.

In Russia nobody wins without the support from the oligarchs. That's how Putin came to power. In that respect, Russia is even worse than the US plutocracy.

[Beren]

Perhaps he is a patriot

I'm sure he means to be at least, like that's how Russians usually are, he's also a stubborn maniac I guess. He doesn't appear to be an easy man as well, so he's not the best material for a puppet or a stooge and could easily turn out to be dangerous, especially if he has more balls than brains.

[Heisenberg]

Do you have another explanation of what you said? I'd be glad to hear it. This does not explain or add anything, that's for sure.

You claimed that Russia will turn neo-Nazi just like Ukraine if liberal democracy happens. How is anyone supposed to interpret this?

Clearly, you don't trust the 'neo-nazi' Slavs with democracy. You 're arguing Putin is best for everybody cause "Nazi Slavs".

Oh, you actually expected a serious response? You should have said so!

But, since you asked: no, I obviously do not think that Slavs are genetically incapable of governing themselves. On the contrary, I think that we in the west should stop presuming to speak for the populations of countries most of us know very little about. Disliking, and being wary of, a shady figure like Alexei Navalny is not the same as disliking "democracy", and it's absurd to say so. Indeed, the fact that the Economist and Financial Times - publications which value economic liberalism above all else and have a track record of defending free market dictators over democratically elected socialists - love Alexei Navalny so much should be a red flag to anyone, not just a cranky socialist like me.

And by the way, I did not say that democracy automatically equals Nazism in eastern Europe. I said that it is a mistake to assume that things can't possibly get worse just because the "bad guy" is ousted. I think I have a pretty good reason for thinking this given the fate of the western engineered "revolutions" in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Bolivia, Ukraine and Syria. I worry that the same will happen if Alexei Navalny ever attains power in Russia. He has ugly ties to the organised far right. These groups tend to want something in return for their support.

My position is simple: disasters like Ukraine, Iraq, Syria, Bolivia, Libya etc keep happening precisely because western governments don't trust the rest of the world to govern themselves, an have the arrogance to presume that their current model of governance is both self evident and "universal". In reality, it is less than 100 years old and is largely possible because western countries benefit from the wealth and stability brought about by centuries of colonialism.

Feel free to disagree with me, but if you're going to keep putting words in my mouth and accusing me of seeing Slavs as subhuman, I won't keep engaging.

[noemon]

So the argument has now switched to liberal democracy can only function with the wealth of colonialism. Good thing then that Russia is the largest and richest country in the planet and has all the gold, diamonds, oil and gas that western countries went chasing around the globe to fund their liberal systems.

Navalny representes change from Putin. The world is moving at warp speed and in Russia everything is crumbling.

If Navalny was not popular among the masses he would not have gone through all these things he is going through, dismissing him as a "neo-nazi" seems like knee-jerk anti Slav pro Putin propaganda and nothing more.

[Heisenberg]

Since you clearly have no desire to engage with what I actually said, it appears we have nothing more to say to each other. Have a good day.

[late]

So the argument has now switched to liberal democracy can only function with the wealth of colonialism. Good thing then that Russia is the largest and richest country in the planet and has all the gold, diamonds, oil and gas that western countries went chasing around the globe to fund their liberal systems.

Navalny representes change from Putin. The world is moving at warp speed and in Russia everything is crumbling.

If Navalny was not popular among the masses he would not have gone through all these things he is going through, dismissing him as a "neo-nazi" seems like knee-jerk anti Slav pro Putin propaganda and nothing more.

That's the way I look at it.

Every time this comes up, the guy gets accused of criminal activity. My favorite was the oil guy. They stole his company, Putin arranged for a kid to buy the billion buck company at an "auction" for $17. I imagine Putin gets a monthly check now.

[noemon]

Since you clearly have no desire to engage with what I actually said, it appears we have nothing more to say to each other. Have a good day.

I did engage with what you said, I responded to your points, you are the one leaving and without engaging with what I said.

A good day to you as well mate.

[Heisenberg]

For the record, you didn't respond to what I said. You ignored 90% of the context, claimed baselessly that I had "changed my argument", and then represented that argument as uncharitably as you could.

If you want to have an actual, good faith discussion, I'm happy to. But I don't think that can happen with you essentially calling me a Nazi as a starting point. I don't think you're a Nazi for liking Alexei Navalny, I think you're misguided. You apparently do think I view Slavs as subhuman because I'm not a fan of him, or of liberal interventionism. It's pretty ridiculous.

[noemon]

For the record, you didn't respond to what I said. You ignored 90% of the context, claimed baselessly that I had "changed my argument", and then represented that argument as uncharitably as you could.

If you want to have an actual, good faith discussion, I'm happy to. But I don't think that can happen with you essentially calling me a Nazi as a starting point. I don't think you're a Nazi for liking Alexei Navalny, I think you're misguided. You apparently do think I view Slavs as subhuman because I'm not a fan of him, or of liberal interventionism. It's pretty ridiculous.

Please not another poor victim. Your posts in this thread are all in bad-faith. Navalny was poisoned and then imprisoned as soon as he returned to Russia.

He is the Leader of the Russian Opposition. He is the Keir Starmer of Russia.

You called Navalny a "neo-nazi" and claimed that Russia will go the way of Ukraine and become a neo-nazi shithole, god forbid these people actually elect someone in a free election without Putin looking over their shoulders. You used the term "neo-nazi" numerous times to refer to these people and are now literally crying for allegedly being called a "neo-nazi" despite the fact that at no point did I use that term against you.

You 're the one who brought "neo-nazis" into this thread in a bad faith attempt to delegitimise the Russian Opposition Leader that has been poisoned and imprisoned. It is only fair you feel the sting of you own arguments turned around on their heads. Perhaps you will think twice in the future.

Once this propaganda meme was no longer workable for you, you claimed that he is a spy of CIA and MI6(with no evidence other than, the FT likes him so he must be!!! clearly a master argument made in totally good faith) and that liberal democracy can only operate with the wealth of colonialism(another master 'good faith' argument, Russia has no colonialism so incapable to make it work). I replied to this by telling you that Russia has all the natural resources she needs 10 times over to sustain her economy. It is a disgrace that such a massive and rich country that has achieved so much is incapable of having a workable economic system.

I told you that Navalny is popular and a clear danger to Putin. And that simply dismissing him as "neo-nazi" is pro-Putin propaganda.

You have no retort and are now whinging because you don't know what to say. Perhaps you should think twice before you post bullshit that are so easily destroyed.

What is "good faith" to you? Agreeing with your nonsense when I clearly don't. Why?

Being like "yeah man, the FT man, must be a mole man like that other dude, yeltsin, rock on".

No dude, that is not what good faith is. Good faith is being honest and true instead of operating from assumptions, prejudices and propagandistic points of view.

[Odiseizam]

@noemon I've started new historical thread so we could continue our histo chit chat there ...

@Heisenberg You have a point Navalny is way greater risk for ww3 if somehow life rearange common sense, probably many are not aware but Putin is most peaceful russian leader when it comes to geopolitical aggression, almost completely in defense mode, altho reacting promptly when in stake are russian interest but again in balanced mode ... cant imagine how fearful east-west tension will unravel without him, yet in same time this makes him dangerous for the west i.e. how on every level strategically is resetting their nwo inertia!

[ThirdTerm]

In 2014, Navalny was found guilty of fraud after he and his brother Oleg were accused of embezzling 30 million rubles ($540,000) from a Russian subsidiary of French cosmetics company Yves Rocher. While Navalny was given a suspended sentence, his brother was jailed.

The FSIN now accuses Navalny of violating the terms of his probation by failing to show up for scheduled inspections while in Germany. It has requested that a court replace his suspended sentence with a real prison term.

A hearing has been scheduled for January 29. If the FSIN request is granted, Navalny will likely be jailed for 3.5 years.

Navalny faces a new trial on whether he violated the terms of a suspended sentence handed down in 2014 by not reporting to authorities while in Germany. The ECHR ruled that the Navalny brothers’ right to a fair trial was violated and their case needs to be heard by the Russian supreme court. This is why he was arrested upon returning to Moscow. Alexey will remain in custody until at least Feb. 15. Since his brother was actually jailed for embezzling 30 million rubles from Yves Rocher, he may have been complicit in the financial crime committed by his brother. Navalny is a useful tool for the West to destabilize Putin's Russia just as Trump was for Russia. It's been alleged that the CIA is now working with Navalny by the Kremlin. I'm not surprised if this is true, given the history of the Cold War.

MOSCOW, October 1. /TASS/. Western intelligence agencies, namely the US Central Intelligence Agency, are working with blogger Alexey Navalny, Russian Presidential Spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters on Thursday.

"It’s not the patient [Navalny] that is working with Western intelligence agencies but Western intelligence agencies are working with him," Peskov said.

"Indeed, there is information about it and I can specify that experts from the United States’ Central Intelligence Agency are working with him," the Kremlin spokesman emphasized.

According to Peskov, it’s not the first time that contacts between Navalny and foreign intelligence agencies have been detected. "It’s not the first time that they are giving instructions to him," he noted. "There is information that instructors [from Western intelligence agencies] are working with him and the patient is clearly getting instructions, we have seen it many times before," the Kremlin spokesman noted.

Russian State Duma (the lower house of parliament) Speaker Vyacheslav Volodin said earlier that Navalny worked with Western intelligence and state agencies and acted in their interests.

[noemon]

Russian Opposition Leader gets poisoned and then imprisoned.

Pro-Putin trolls:

"Must be a CIA spy", "let's kill him or destroy him".

Because that is exactly how politics [should] work

Can not even comprehend that even if for the sake of argument we agree that he is, as every single politician is connected to one or another in this world, his opponents would still have to fight him in the ring of politics if they have a single ounce of respect for their own game however slanted in their favour may be.

[annatar1914]

I'm sure he means to be at least, like that's how Russians usually are, he's also a stubborn maniac I guess. He doesn't appear to be an easy man as well, so he's not the best material for a puppet or a stooge and could easily turn out to be dangerous, especially if he has more balls than brains.

@Beren ;

Given the mood of the Russian people, their national will, they are likely to raise to leadership a man who will make Putin or Navalny look like Gorbachev and Yeltsin. The West then will wish for the ''good old days'' of their friend Putin in comparison.

[noemon]

If Navalny is a CIA spy, has he got more power in Russia than Putin? Is Putin or his successor incapable to take him on?

How pathetic are they then? And why would anyone bend the knee to people who have the entire state apparatus behind them but still fail to take on an alleged "CIA stooge" .

Russians look at yourselves.

Lots of you are complaining about western systems day and night, the decadence, the one and the other.

What is this state of affairs that defines you?