[noemon]

They are not mutually exclusive and when we talk do about Muslims in Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Yemen we should not reduce their suffering by whatabouting the Uyghurs.

China's 'internal dealings' against the Uyghurs are extreme.

You can not talk about the suffering of Muslims in Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Yemen while ignoring the suffering of Uyghurs.

[JohnRawls]

If China is so bad... why is it that it is the WestTM that is creating so many Muslim refugees all over the world to the point of triggering a world war?

With all the spite this thread is trying to build against China and its internal dealings with its ethnic Muslims, I think we have forgotten that there are Muslims in Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Yemen that might need a band-aid or two .... because of the WestTM.

So the difference between the situations is that you can't pin Uyghur genocide/torture on the West in any direct or indirect way so you don't acknowledge it or don't care? What?

This is literally what you are implying with your text.

[Fasces]

As much as I understand, after 2015 foreigners have been leaving China in droves and there are reports about it but no real statistics provided by anybody including China.

Also there has been increasing bans on foreigners leaving China starting for 2018. Which is kinda weird but okay.

At least I heard that much about the situation.

Note: I am not saying that you explicitly made the graph until 2015 for a reason but can you clarify a bit?

That's when the Japanese institute that made these graphs cut it off. I haven't heard of any bans on foreigners leaving China, or reduced migration - can you provide a source for them? I myself arrived in China in late 2015, and in my experience the number of foreigners has been increasing, especially from Africa or South America.

[Patrickov]

If China is so bad... why is it that it is the WestTM that is creating so many Muslim refugees all over the world to the point of triggering a world war?

The Muslims fight each other in the first place. Also China is also guilty if not more, for helping out the oppressive regimes there.

As said by @noemon, stop scapegoating the West.

[Russianbear]

It is truly impossible to shake off the impression of Western hypocrisy in the case of the Uighurs in China.
If the United States really cared about Muslims, they would not slaughter them so easily in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and Syria.

[AFAIK]

If the US gave a shit about human rights it would have supported the people of Egypt instead of the military and it wouldn't be allied with Saudi Arabia. Why would anyone think that their protestations about the Uighurs are sincere rather than self serving?

[Potemkin]

It is truly impossible to shake off the impression of Western hypocrisy in the case of the Uighurs in China.
If the United States really cared about Muslims, they would not slaughter them so easily in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and Syria.

As Lao Tzu would have put it, the Chinese Uighurs are "straw dogs". But the thing about straw dogs is that they were paraded on display through the streets before being dismantled and strewn underfoot. The Uighur Muslims are useful to the West for propaganda purposes, which is why we are parading these straw dogs through the international media. But once they have outlived their usefulness to us, we will trample them underfoot. "The sage is ruthless; he treats the people as straw dogs."

[noemon]

If the US gave a shit about human rights it would have supported the people of Egypt instead of the military and it wouldn't be allied with Saudi Arabia. Why would anyone think that their protestations about the Uighurs are sincere rather than self serving?

Why are US protestations anyhow relevant to the suffering of the Uyghurs?

Your argument is so stupid I can not even get my head around it and wonder what kind of person judges an act of violence by the identity of 1 of the persons protesting it?

If someone was raping your wife and there was a video of it and your worst enemy came to inform you and show you the video, would you say I don't believe it cause that guy told me? More to the point would you not do something about it at all cause that guy told you? Would you not even bother to check if it's true or not?

There is only 1 reality here to determine, was she raped or not.

China is sterilising Uyghur women and brainwashing Uyghur people in droves.

As Lao Tzu would have put it, the Chinese Uighurs are "straw dogs". But the thing about straw dogs is that they were paraded on display through the streets before being dismantled and strewn underfoot. The Uighur Muslims are useful to the West for propaganda purposes, which is why we are parading these straw dogs through the international media. But once they have outlived their usefulness to us, we will trample them underfoot. "The sage is ruthless; he treats the people as straw dogs."

Same as above, you 're just echoing AFAIK, so the same question applies to you as well Potemkin.

If someone was raping your wife and there was a video of it and your worst enemy came to inform you and show you the video, would you say I don't believe it cause that guy told me? More to the point would you not do something about it at all cause that guy told you? There is only 1 reality here to determine, was she raped or not.

It is truly impossible to shake off the impression of Western hypocrisy in the case of the Uighurs in China.
If the United States really cared about Muslims, they would not slaughter them so easily in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and Syria.

While you are talking about abstract entities in the aether, I can talk about you specifically.

It is quite boring and uninteresting to see a Russian person supporting genocide against a minority just so he can posture as anti-West.

Don't you have an actual argument, a bit of intellect and something more than just very basic anti-Americanism for the sake of it?

Accusing the west to distract from the genocidal policies of the Chinese against the Uyghurs is not an argument, it is a litmus test, once the tests are complete, it then becomes spam.

This does not just go for this discussion, we see it in every topic.

[Patrickov]

If we agree that the atrocities are not to be stopped easily, those apologists' comments tell me quite a lot about who deserve the said treatment more than all those persecuted around the world, if nothing else.

[Frigidweirdo]

If we agree that the atrocities are not to be stopped easily, those apologists' comments tell me quite a lot about who deserve the said treatment more than all those persecuted around the world, if nothing else.

What apologists?

All I'm seeing are people trying to look at this issue with perspective.

The US invaded Iraq and got up to one million people killed. They invaded Afghanistan. Bombed Yemen, Syria, Libya, Yemen. They had a massive anti-Muslim push, mostly as an excuse to get at OPEC countries.

Bad stuff, lots of killing, all for money.

China does bad stuff. The US calls China out on it. Why? What does the US care about the people of China? They clearly don't.

The West's attack on China is something completely apart from the issue of what is happening in China.

Then we can look at how the US and other western countries become powerful, became united. Lots of genocide in the US's history. Lots of manipulating people, killing them, enslaving them to get where they wanted to be.

You can't ignore all of this with an emotional response like "you're an apologist".

That's for people who want everything nice and simple, black and white.

[Patrickov]

What apologists?

All I'm seeing are people trying to look at this issue with perspective.

The US invaded Iraq and got up to one million people killed. They invaded Afghanistan. Bombed Yemen, Syria, Libya, Yemen. They had a massive anti-Muslim push, mostly as an excuse to get at OPEC countries.

Bad stuff, lots of killing, all for money.

China does bad stuff. The US calls China out on it. Why? What does the US care about the people of China? They clearly don't.

The West's attack on China is something completely apart from the issue of what is happening in China.

Then we can look at how the US and other western countries become powerful, became united. Lots of genocide in the US's history. Lots of manipulating people, killing them, enslaving them to get where they wanted to be.

You can't ignore all of this with an emotional response like "you're an apologist".

That's for people who want everything nice and simple, black and white.

No one says that others care for us, but when they can do something that we can't what's the problem of supporting them?

Things should be as nice and simple as possible. I don't appreciate your attempt to "induce reality", because this is the exact reason why so many atrocities have went unpunished.

Thanks for admitting that you are one of those who deserve Hell more than those currently in.

[noemon]

What apologists?

All I'm seeing are people trying to look at this issue with perspective.

The US invaded Iraq and got up to one million people killed. They invaded Afghanistan. Bombed Yemen, Syria, Libya, Yemen. They had a massive anti-Muslim push, mostly as an excuse to get at OPEC countries.

Bad stuff, lots of killing, all for money.

China does bad stuff. The US calls China out on it. Why? What does the US care about the people of China? They clearly don't.

The West's attack on China is something completely apart from the issue of what is happening in China.

Then we can look at how the US and other western countries become powerful, became united. Lots of genocide in the US's history. Lots of manipulating people, killing them, enslaving them to get where they wanted to be.

You can't ignore all of this with an emotional response like "you're an apologist".

That's for people who want everything nice and simple, black and white.

All I am seeing is trolls trying to distract from China's action with spam and stupid excuses.

China has attacked the people of Hong Kong and the Uyghur people. She has imprisoned the elected representatives of the people of Hong Kong and is destroying the Uyghur ethnic-group, she is also persecuting the Tibetans and her ultra-racist mono ethnic culture is not something to look up to.

This thread deals with the Chinese genocide against the Uyghurs, which has not been induced by "the west" in any way, shape or form.

The "perspective" is what my little children say to me when they I catch them being naughty. It's not an argument. It's unintelligent and un-interesting spam.

The fact is that you prove beyond any doubt the total bankruptcy of the Chinese argument, you are proving beyond any doubt that China is really doing all those genocidal things to the Uyghurs.

[AFAIK]

Why are US protestations anyhow relevant to the suffering of the Uyghurs?

The reason Uighurs are receiving so much attention is because they are a useful stick to beat China with. Nobody in Washington or London cares for them or values them in the slightest. I mostly agree with the observations made by the US and others although I bristle at the use of the term cultural genocide. I just recognise that the Uighurs will be cast aside in exchange for concessions on IP protection or currency valuation.

[noemon]

The reason Uighurs are receiving so much attention is because they are a useful stick to beat China with. Nobody in Washington or London cares for them or values them in the slightest. I mostly agree with the observations made by the US and others although I bristle at the use of the term cultural genocide. I just recognise that the Uighurs will be cast aside in exchange for concessions on IP protection or currency valuation.

The Uyghurs are not receiving any attention whatsoever. No news, very little articles and hardly talked about anywhere despite this going on for years.

Most people are unaware of the matter or don't care.

[QatzelOk]

So the difference between the situations is that you can't pin Uyghur genocide/torture on the West in any direct or indirect way so you don't acknowledge it or don't care? What?

My "caring" (empathy) is universal because it's more *spiritual* (based on past experience and text-based theory) than *self-interested* (dictated by the economic interests of my group or perceived class).

So the unbelievably violent disregard for Muslim human rights by the West and its Israeli "Arab-death-star"... make any Western narratives about "compassion for China's Muslims" really insincere and fake-sounding. Straw Dogs, as has been written by Potemkin.

It's like a mass-murderer pleading for "the sacredness of all human life" so that he can push someone out of his way and kill more people. Pretending to care about China's minorities is just being used as a way to justify violence against many more people.

You can *smell the money* coming off that tear-soaked handkerchief.

stop scapegoating the West.

Scapegoating the west... for scapegoating "anything that moves?"

[Rancid]

My "caring" (empathy) is universal because it's more *spiritual* (based on past experience and text-based theory) than *self-interested* (dictated by the economic interests of my group or perceived class).

So the unbelievably violent disregard for Muslim human rights by the West and its Israeli "Arab-death-star"... make any Western narratives about "compassion for China's Muslims" really insincere and fake-sounding. Straw Dogs, as has been written by Potemkin.

It's like a mass-murderer pleading for "the sacredness of all human life" so that he can push someone out of his way and kill more people. Pretending to care about China's minorities is just being used as a way to justify violence against many more people.

You can *smell the money* coming off that tear-soaked handkerchief.


Scapegoating the west... for scapegoating "anything that moves?"

Are you saying that you're cool with the mistreatment of Muslims because it's not a western power doing it?

[QatzelOk]

Are you saying that you're cool with the mistreatment of Muslims because it's not a western power doing it?

It's really, really morally bankrupt to fake caring about people so that you can kill many more people.

Your master told you to kill millions of Muslims, Asians, Africans, and Latinos during your lifetime. War after war.

A lot of times, he used "caring" as an excuse. Caring about WMDs. Caring about Libyan students. Caring about babies in incubators. Caring about Chile staying capitalist with "new and improved" shit theory.

Again, he "cares" about one group, so that he can kill another.

If you "care" only because your murderous master tells you to, then you're a dog, and your master is a scoundrel.

[Patrickov]

If you "care" only because your murderous master tells you to, then you're a dog, and your master is a scoundrel.

I care my own freedom, the freedom of my contemporaries and the society around me.

You seem to endorse an entity which tramples all of the above.

You are in no place to accuse others of hypocrisy because you are the worst hypocrite walking in the room.

[Rancid]

It's really, really morally bankrupt to fake caring about people so that you can kill many more people.

Your master told you to kill millions of Muslims, Asians, Africans, and Latinos during your lifetime. War after war.

A lot of times, he used "caring" as an excuse. Caring about WMDs. Caring about Libyan students. Caring about babies in incubators. Caring about Chile staying capitalist with "new and improved" shit theory.

Again, he "cares" about one group, so that he can kill another.

If you "care" only because your murderous master tells you to, then you're a dog, and your master is a scoundrel.

My question wasn't about me. I'm asking YOU a question.

Do you don't care that Muslims are being mistreated?

[Frigidweirdo]

No one says that others care for us, but when they can do something that we can't what's the problem of supporting them?

Things should be as nice and simple as possible. I don't appreciate your attempt to "induce reality", because this is the exact reason why so many atrocities have went unpunished.

Thanks for admitting that you are one of those who deserve Hell more than those currently in.

Well, I see that you can't be civil in debate so I won't bother to respond to you again.

All I am seeing is trolls trying to distract from China's action with spam and stupid excuses.

China has attacked the people of Hong Kong and the Uyghur people. She has imprisoned the elected representatives of the people of Hong Kong and is destroying the Uyghur ethnic-group, she is also persecuting the Tibetans and her ultra-racist mono ethnic culture is not something to look up to.

This thread deals with the Chinese genocide against the Uyghurs, which has not been induced by "the west" in any way, shape or form.

The "perspective" is what my little children say to me when they I catch them being naughty. It's not an argument. It's unintelligent and un-interesting spam.

The fact is that you prove beyond any doubt the total bankruptcy of the Chinese argument, you are proving beyond any doubt that China is really doing all those genocidal things to the Uyghurs.

Why do you think I'm here? To be a politician?

I'm here to use my brain, to have a political discussion. I'm not here to push a narrative.

I don't need to mention the bad things China does in every single sentence I write. I don't need to ignore anything either.

At the same time I understand the limitations of such a forum like this. I can't write a 10,000 word dissertation on the subject because people won't engage with that. So points come up, we talk about individual points. I try and talk about that point, get my point across about that particular point. I don't need tangents coming in all the time the move the topic away from this point.

But I'm also looking for "the truth". It's hard when things are happening we don't understand. We can guess, we can point to things and say "well, it's probably like this", but often we have to accept we don't know.

The number of women being sterilized is something WE DON'T KNOW. We can guess. But we don't know. And we have to accept that. That doesn't mean China is better because we can't prove something. It just is a simple fact that we can't prove something, and we shouldn't accept something we don't know as fact.