Putin challenges Biden to debate after president calls him a 'killer' - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15162096
I wonder who is responsible for more deaths, Putin or Biden?

I doubt that Biden will accept the challenge. Americans are cowards; they only talk big if they have bigger guns. Perhaps Trump can represent the president in the debate, I'm sure he would love that. Imagine being denied a close relation with Putin all these years and then getting the chance to bash Biden in public together with Putin :lol:

Why is it that American presidents always have to gratuitously insult Russia? Obama did that too. Is it to throw a spanner into diplomatic efforts to achieve peace or is this part of a coming of age ritual in American macho culture?

Whichever, the US is a dysfunctional superpower.

Putin challenges Biden to debate after president calls him a 'killer'

Russian President Vladimir Putin has reacted to President Joe Biden calling him a "killer" by challenging Biden to take part in a conversation with him broadcast live online.

“I’ve just thought of this now,” Putin told a Russian state television reporter. “I want to propose to President Biden to continue our discussion, but on the condition that we do it basically live, as it’s called. Without any delays and directly in an open, direct discussion. It seems to me that would be interesting for the people of Russia and for the people of the United States.”

Putin’s invitation seemed to amount to a challenge to Biden to a live televised debate, following a day of diplomatic uproar that began when Biden said he thought Putin was a “killer” in an interview with ABC News’ George Stephanopoulos. Russia recalled its ambassador to the United States in response to the remark.

After issuing his invitation, Putin said he didn’t want to delay, proposing he and Biden hold the discussion as early as Friday.

“I don’t want to put this off for long. I want to go the taiga this weekend to relax a little,” Putin said. “So we could do it tomorrow or Monday. We are ready at any time convenient for the American side.”

In response to reporters' questions, White House press secretary Jen Psaki suggested the discussion was unlikely to happen and noted that Biden is scheduled to travel to Georgia on Friday.

"I'll have to get back to you if that is something we're entertaining. I would say that the president already had a conversation with President Putin," Psaki said, noting Biden still had other word leaders to talk with. "The president, of course, will be in Georgia tomorrow and quite busy," she said.

Biden’s remarks in the ABC interview that aired Wednesday has triggered a furious reaction from Russia’s government, which unleashed a barrage of criticism and took the extraordinary step of recalling its ambassador back to Moscow for "consultations" over the comments.

In the interview, Stephanopoulos asked Biden if he thinks Putin “is a killer.”

“Mmm hmm, I do,” Biden responded.

Before issuing the discussion challenge, Putin reacted to Biden’s comment earlier with a playground retort: “I know you are, but what am I.”

“You know, I remember, in childhood, when we were arguing with each other in the courtyard, we would say, ‘I know you are, but what am I,’” Putin said. “And that’s no accident. It’s not just a childish saying. There is a very deep meaning in that.”

Putin suggested Biden was accusing him of what the U.S. itself is guilty of. He referred to the killings of Native Americans people during colonization and the injustice faced by African Americans.

The Russian leader also said he wished Biden "good health."

“I would say to him: 'Be well.' I wish him good health. I say that without any irony, without jokes,” Putin said.

But while Putin has presented himself as responding with good humor, the rest of the Russian government has reacted with a torrent of outrage against Biden, who in the ABC interview also warned Putin would “pay a price” for meddling in American elections.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters Thursday that Biden’s words had confirmed for them that Biden has no interest in improving relations with Russia.

"I'll say only that these remarks by the U.S. president are very bad. He definitely doesn't want to normalize relations with our country. And we'll be acting based precisely on this premise," Peskov said.

The move to recall its ambassador is almost unheard of in recent U.S.-Russian relations. The last time Russia recalled its ambassador for consultations was reportedly in 1998 in protest over the bombing of Iraq ordered by then-President Bill Clinton.

The Russian embassy in Washington D.C. said the ambassador, Anatoly Antonov, would leave Saturday. It said Antonov’s would have a meeting with the foreign ministry in Moscow to “discuss ways to rectify Russia-U.S. ties that are in crisis.”

Maria Zakharova, a spokesperson for Russia’s foreign ministry, said in a statement, “We are interested in not allowing the irreversible degradation” of relations with the U.S. “If the American realize the risks connected with that.”

The reaction to Biden’s comments highlighted the tense relations between Russia and the U.S. that appear likely only to worsen in the coming weeks as the Biden administration looks set to respond over a variety of alleged Russian misdeeds.

A U.S. intelligence report declassified this week found that Putin had ordered efforts to try to influence the 2020 presidential election by undermining Biden’s campaign and seeking to boost that of former President Donald Trump. This month, the Biden administration ordered sanctions on Russian officials for the poisoning and jailing of the Russian opposition leader Alexey Navalny.
#15162102
It's a clear message appealing to the brute emotion used and abused by Putin, and many other criminal dictators like him.

Biden is using the Trump, Putin, Erdogan playbook language when it comes to them only and not when it comes to anyone else.

He is killing several birds with one stone and is setting the tone for what kind of relations they can and should expect.

As far as anyone is concerned Putin and Erdogan should go fuck themselves and hang their heads in shame.

They are both making/made or threaten to make war in Europe and environs. I don't see why anyone should treat them as anything other than criminals.

A European considering the argument that Putin and Erdogan should have the right to attack/intimidate/threaten Europe and others because the US is "hypocritical" or "naughty" would be reaching for new heights of wokism.

I have personally had enough pampering these criminals in the hope that one day they may see the light and attach themselves to Europe. If they want to be friends and partners they should come by themselves and ask for it instead of alternative people defending them in the hope that one day a "miracle will happen".

It's bollocks, the appeasement strategy has not changed anything, it has just made everything either inert or worse.

A new strategy is in place now. Germany can no longer afford its pretentious fence-sitting.

It's decision time, I know a very scary thing for people in Germany and Europe who would rather live in an eternal time-bubble.
#15162103
Well this is merely retort between leaders that has been going on for the past 80 years. I don't want to seem like I am taking sides, but if we are talking about deaths since the turn of the millennium, one nation is losing that debate big time. That was why a debate was offered. Not that Biden would be stupid enough to accept it of course. But it has given Russia a platform to highlight the countless deaths America are responsible in the ME which moves the focus off them.
Last edited by B0ycey on 20 Mar 2021 11:00, edited 1 time in total.
#15162104
The argument that Putin's crimes are washed in the US's Siloam pool is ridiculous and dangerous to those that are actually threatened by these criminal actions.

The argument never existed and Putin or Erdogan do not have the right to do to others what the US or others have done to third-parties during their histories.

It's criminal, and what Putin's debate is saying is also criminal.

Putin wants to go and tell the world that "I can be as criminal as I want to be due to the collective history of the west -which Russia is a historical part of".

Like wokism such an idea is absolutely pathetic, dangerous and technically criminal.
#15162106
noemon wrote:The argument that Putin's crimes are washed in the US's Siloam pool is ridiculous and dangerous to those that are actually threatened by these criminal actions.


That is Putins argument not mine. It is of course a whataboutism but it doesn't matter. Biden cannot call Putin a murderer when he was part of the Obama team that fought in Syria and Libya. Or if he does, Putin can do what he has done. That is don't be a hypocrite or do you want to debate who the biggest killer is.
#15162108
noemon wrote:It is not just a whataboutism anymore, because people die as a result making it various criminal things on the way.


Well it is a whataboutism because Putin is saying what about you. It is a tactic we see on PoFo to great effect and Putin has used it to a great effect also. The irony is Putin never even had to defend whatever Biden accused him of. Whether crimes in Russia should be addressed is irelevant. He is basically using Americas record against him to deflect the attention away from Russia. And if a Biden actually took Putin on, Russia would win that battle I would say which is an issue when you are accusing people of things you are guilty of. I don't want to sound like I am defending Putin here. I am just trying to explain what plays have been used and to what effect and counter effect they have.
#15162109
Russia would not win that battle because it can't, because a person would just make the same argument I just did(an evil does not wash another), shut it down and ridicule Putin in the process.

The fact is Biden can not lower himself to a point where the US is anyhow equal to Russia, when it does not even hold a candle to a single state.

This is the factual reality.

Appearances are what we make of it and what we permit the trolls to make out of it.

The conversation shifts as easy as that.
#15162141
Atlantis wrote:I wonder who is responsible for more deaths, Putin or Biden?

At this juncture, probably Putin still has the lead in terms of being head of state. However, Biden just killed 22 people in Syria. So calling Putin a killer the following week just didn't make any sense at all.

Atlantis wrote:I doubt that Biden will accept the challenge.

No he won't accept the challenge. It's pretty clear from Biden's gait and the falls on airplane stairs that he likely has Lewy body dementia. That's bad news. I'm guessing that's why Pelosi wanted to take the nuclear football away from him.

Atlantis wrote:Why is it that American presidents always have to gratuitously insult Russia? Obama did that too. Is it to throw a spanner into diplomatic efforts to achieve peace or is this part of a coming of age ritual in American macho culture?

It's the neoconservative/neoliberal types that are behind Biden, Obama, Bush and Clinton that hate Russia's independence, particularly from the banking cabal. Frankly, Biden probably doesn't even remember saying it.

noemon wrote:A new strategy is in place now. Germany can no longer afford its pretentious fence-sitting.

It's not merely pretentious. Russia can cut off gas supplies and tank the German economy. Germany is in a precarious situation.

noemon wrote:It's decision time, I know a very scary thing for people in Germany and Europe who would rather live in an eternal time-bubble.

Germany's position is a product of having made bad decisions regarding energy among other things.

noemon wrote:The argument that Putin's crimes are washed in the US's Siloam pool is ridiculous and dangerous to those that are actually threatened by these criminal actions.

That's not the argument. The point is that Biden doesn't have the moral authority to call Putin a killer, especially only a week after killing 22 people in Syria with no apparent legal authority for US troops to be there in the first place.

noemon wrote:The argument never existed and Putin or Erdogan do not have the right to do to others what the US or others have done to third-parties during their histories.

They don't have the right. They have the power. It's a big difference.

B0ycey wrote:He is basically using Americas record against him to deflect the attention away from Russia. And if a Biden actually took Putin on, Russia would win that battle I would say which is an issue when you are accusing people of things you are guilty of.

Exactly right. As far as Russia's crimes go, it hardly compares to the humanitarian crisis the Obama administration caused in Syria, and spilled over into Europe. Further, Biden has already killed 22 people in Syria, and a week later he calls Putin a killer without the slightest hint of irony.

noemon wrote:By Putin, but not anybody else.
Especially when Putin is indeed a criminal president.

Yes, but so is Biden.

fuser wrote:If I were Putin, I would have asked for a competition to see who climbs the stairs of a plane faster for maximum troll. :excited:

Funny, but in this case, Putin is actually outclassing Biden by not doing that. I'm sure Putin will get some lower level functionary to do that, and then publicly scold him to appear to be taking the high ground.
#15162146
Atlantis wrote:Americans are cowards; they only talk big if they have bigger guns.


Unfortunately this is equally proved by Russia and China if not more.

Many oppressed people in Middle East do not get the democracy they deserve because of hinderance from Russia and China.

The people in Syria, Venezuela and Myanmar are being starved or killed because the likes of Russia and/or China hinder legitimate actions from the West, at least from the start.

Not to mention the perils of my city and (arguably) Uighurs.

Worse, many on PoFo seem to genuinely think the Russians and Chinese are right. (Although I acknowledge that you are one of the more reasonable among them)

It's always been the case that big guns can talk big. Saying that the Americans are offenders is absurd, not to mention your suggestion that they are the sole offender.
#15162153
blackjack21 wrote:Yes, but so is Biden.


If Biden poisons Trump you might find a leg to stand on.

blackjack21 wrote:It's not merely pretentious. Russia can cut off gas supplies and tank the German economy. Germany is in a precarious situation.


Nonsense. It would make very little difference to Germany but huge for Russia who cannot afford such a thing neither economically nor politically. It would be the final blow.

blackjack21 wrote:They don't have the right. They have the power. It's a big difference.


No they don't, their only "power" resides in the vacuum permitted by Europe and the US, which makes it a privilege supplied to them by others.

blackjack21 wrote:That's not the argument.


It is solely about whitewashing criminal actions by Putin, Erdogan and others.
#15162156
noemon wrote:If Biden poisons Trump you might find a leg to stand on.

Biden cannot be running scams with Burisma and running $1.5B of Chicom money through hedge funds via his son, or (see my tagline quote of Biden) steal a presidential election and have the moral authority to take on Putin while you call Putin a criminal but not Biden. They are more or less equivalents. No, Biden hasn't killed his opposition. That's the sort of thing the Clintons do, however. They are, however, trying to kill off Cuomo's career so that he's not a threat to Kamala Harris.

noemon wrote:Russia cannot afford such a thing neither economically nor politically.

Gas is fungible. All Russia would have to do is cut Germany off at the onset of winter. Germany can then find another way to source gas after an economic fiasco, but Russia will just sell to the highest bidder on the world market. The reality is that Germany is economically vulnerable. You might not see it that way, because they are a hegemon compared to Greece. This is the situation:

Image

That's why making moral arguments isn't going to go very far. It's called Realpolitik. Yes, I know it sucks. However, that's the situation.

noemon wrote:No they don't, their only "power" resides in the vacuum permitted by Europe and the US, which makes it a privilege supplied to them by others.

By the US? At least we have a military. Turkey is a NATO ally and clear on the other side of the world from the US. We cannot take military action against Turkey without at a minimum kicking them out of NATO first, which means they will be kicking us out of Incirlik, etc.

noemon wrote:It is solely about whitewashing criminal actions by Putin, Erdogan and others.

Nobody is saying they are innocent or pure as the wind-driven snow. People are just saying Biden doesn't have the moral authority to take on Putin or Erdogan. Sidestep Putin and Erdogan for a moment, and substitute China which is in the throws of a genocide:

China uses Black Lives Matter to embarrass Biden Administration

On U.S. soil, the Chinese mocked U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken and National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan.

“Many people within the United States actually have little confidence in the democracy of the United States,” top Chinese diplomat Yang Jiechi told the Biden administration, citing the Black Lives Matter movement.

They MOCK him! Whoops! Black Lives Matter was supposed to keep blacks voting for Democrats and blaming racism on Republicans even though Republicans do not run the major cities in the United States. So what did they end up doing with BLM? Giving foreign governments with a human rights problem grounds to push back on the United States. Where are those human rights problems happening in the US? Places run almost exclusively by Democrats.

Patrickov wrote:Worse, many on PoFo seem to genuinely think the Russians and Chinese are right.

They aren't right in violating people's rights. They are on point in pushing back on a US administration that has no moral authority to be talking about human rights.
#15162159
blackjack21 wrote:Biden cannot be running scams with Burisma and running $1.5B of Chicom money through hedge funds via his son, or (see my tagline quote of Biden) steal a presidential election and have the moral authority to take on Putin while you call Putin a criminal but not Biden. They are more or less equivalents. No, Biden hasn't killed his opposition. That's the sort of thing the Clintons do, however.


Conspiracy Qanon crap kindly supplied to justify Putin's criminal actions. Next will be moved to the conspiracy section.

Gas is fungible. All Russia would have to do is cut Germany off at the onset of winter. Germany can then find another way to source gas after an economic fiasco, but Russia will just sell to the highest bidder on the world market. The reality is that Germany is economically vulnerable. You might not see it that way, because they are a hegemon compared to Greece. This is the situation:

That's why making moral arguments isn't going to go very far. It's called Realpolitik. Yes, I know it sucks. However, that's the situation.


Natural gas is less than 25% of Germany's energy consumption and the Russian part is much less than half of that, she is also well connected with 4 more pipelines.

On the contrary Russia relies on these gas sales to survive Putin's jetsetting.

That is the situation.

As I said earlier, Putin and Erdogan are simply privileged brats fed by the inertia and vacuum permitted by Europe and the US.

By the US? At least we have a military. Turkey is a NATO ally and clear on the other side of the world from the US. We cannot take military action against Turkey without at a minimum kicking them out of NATO first, which means they will be kicking us out of Incirlik, etc.


The US has moved the vast majority of its operations out of Incirlik already.

Nobody is saying they are innocent or pure as the wind-driven snow. People are just saying Biden doesn't have the moral authority to take on Putin or Erdogan. Sidestep Putin and Erdogan for a moment, and substitute China which is in the throws of a genocide:


Not people, anti-American trolls, anti-western trolls in league with anti-Biden trolls. No leg to stand on however.

Putin poisons and imprisons his political opponents, come back when Biden does the same, otherwise your whataboutism serves the sole purpose to justify Putin's criminal actions.

China uses Black Lives Matter to embarrass Biden Administration


Obvious Chinese Claptrap. This level of "reporting"(celebrating Chinese insults against US officials) belongs to the conspiracy theory section.
#15162169
noemon wrote:Putin poisons and imprisons his political opponents, come back when Biden does the same, otherwise your whataboutism serves the sole purpose to justify Putin's criminal actions.

Uh... The entire Democrat machine criminalizes policy differences. Paul Manafort, Michael Flynn, Roger Stone, anyone who was in Washington on 1/6, anyone who doesn't obey dictatorial mandates from state governors and gets imprisoned without trial, Obama's IRS, etc.

You cannot do that kind of thing and have moral authority. It does not justify what Putin does. It's just that Biden et. al. do much of the same things they claim others are doing. That's why China pissed right in Biden's face with Black Lives Matter.

noemon wrote:Obvious Chinese Claptrap. This level of "reporting"(celebrating Chinese insults against US officials) belongs to the conspiracy theory section.

It's not a conspiracy. Chinese diplomats actually said that. The Washington Times is not QAnon by a very long shot. They are reporting what Chinese diplomats said to American diplomats on US soil. Does that make what China is doing to Hong Kong or the Uigurs right? Absolutely not. It does mean that the US cannot wag its finger at foreign governments for human rights abuses and have foreign governments take the US seriously. So for Biden, it comes down to trade sanctions, which many of our billionaires don't want because they want to continue making money in China. Again, it's realpolitik and hard power now. The Joseph Nye days are over.
#15162172
Biden has the power and authority to call Putin and Erdogan criminals because that is what they are.

Normal human beings know that there is no comparison between them 2 and Jo Biden.

blackjack21 wrote:It's not a conspiracy. Chinese diplomats actually said that. The Washington Times is not QAnon by a very long shot.


The article you posted is shameless and has no place anywhere neither in the conspiracy section. It's worse than the daily fail.
#15162178
noemon wrote:Obvious Chinese Claptrap. This level of "reporting"(celebrating Chinese insults against US officials) belongs to the conspiracy theory section.


I hereby condemn @blackjack21 for supposedly anti-China when Trump was in power, but now quoting pro-Chinese nonsense just because it is against Biden.

However it is a fact that China often do this as a means of propaganda, because the Chinese people are this vain for their so-called "national glory".


blackjack21 wrote:It does mean that the US cannot wag its finger at foreign governments for human rights abuses and have foreign governments take the US seriously.


I think this kind of statement is in effect pro-China. Who do you fucking think we can turn to anyways?
#15162182
Patrickov wrote:I hereby condemn @blackjack21 for supposedly anti-China when Trump was in power, but now quoting pro-Chinese nonsense just because it is against Biden.

I am not pro-China. I think the US needs to disengage economically with China. I think the US establishment was totally wrong in its assumption that trade with China would lead to democracy. It didn't. It led to a very dystopian situation we are now in.

Patrickov wrote:However it is a fact that China often do this as a means of propaganda, because the Chinese people are this vain for their so-called "national glory".

Yes. The US does it too. The reason the US establishment had to accept the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is that they were in a Cold War with the Soviet Union and the oppression of blacks in the United States thoroughly undermined US rhetoric against the Soviet Union. Forces in the US have funded all sorts of diversity and inclusion initiatives, Black Lives Matter, and basically called all white people racist to the point that it has implications beyond domestic politics.

Patrickov wrote:I think this kind of statement is in effect pro-China.

It's not pro-China. It's highlighting how fucked the thinking of the US establishment has been in the post-Cold War environment. I applauded Trump for imposing tariffs on China, and I hope Biden maintains them and increases them. In fact, I think the taxes we need to raise to pay off the stimulus bills is precisely tariffs against China.

Patrickov wrote:Who do you fucking think we can turn to anyways?

Who do you think is going to stop Xi Jinping? The US isn't going to fight a land war in Asia after Korea and Vietnam. Certainly not against China. At best, you'd get a naval/air/space/cyber war. The US didn't get its independence from the UK peacefully either.

The establishment chose Biden to be president, because Biden spent his life doing the establishment's bidding. The problem is that he's the guy who led the collateral attack on Clarence Thomas' character. He's the guy who authored the 1994 crime bill that saw incarceration increase tenfold, with the majority of prisoners being black. He's represented the credit card companies that give usurious debt to poor people. Then, there are the shenanigans with Hunter Biden.

Here's the Wall Street Journal's take:

What We Know About Hunter Biden’s Dealings in China

Over the past roughly six years, it has channeled $2.5 billion or more on behalf of its financial backers into automotive, energy, mining and technology deals, according to interviews with people familiar with the private-equity firm and a review by The Wall Street Journal of financial filings and other official business records.

Hunter Biden is one of nine directors of the firm, known as BHR Partners, which is controlled and funded primarily by large Chinese government-owned shareholders.

Ok. The establishment effectively shut down the story from having a political ramification for Biden. Now you have someone who is politically weak and too morally compromised to make much of a difference.

So Biden will have to use the power he actually has--tariffs and access to US markets. Yet, it presents a problem. The US is printing money willy-nilly right now, and inflation is likely on the way. Excising China from the US market would lead to a significant increase in the consumer prices of many goods.

Hence, the old saying: "Oh! What a Tangled Web We Weave When First We Practice to Deceive!"
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