Derek Chauvin Trial LIVE - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15164101
B0ycey wrote:Sure, let's wait for the toxicology report. But considering he had just gone to the shops the findings are going to be negligible at best. Hardly ODing was he? But rather than make this about politics, if we both agree that Chauvin is guilty, then why are you trying to find an excuse for him? Was the knee to the neck what killed Floyd to you? If the answer is yes, the rest of your points are just waffle.

George Floyd was likely a piece of shit. The issue is that Chauvin already had him in cuffs and Floyd was indicating he was in bad straits. So they should have gotten him to hospital straight away. What's going to fuck those guys is that the police told the paramedics to back off. I think that seals their doom. I still think as a point of law, they are guilty of felony manslaughter and they need to face jailtime. Not just Chauvin. Tou Thao is also culpable in preventing paramedics to attend to Floyd. Could they have saved Floyd? I'm guessing it's unlikely, because he probably ingested a fatal dose of fentanyl to prevent its discovery and the legal consequences. When you're already intoxicated, you make bad choices. That's not the case with the police. They were within the scope of their training as far as the restraint as the statutes and the courts give them pretty wide latitude. However, they were behaving like total pricks. Preventing first aid is going to look like malice.

Godstud wrote:It doesn't matter what the fucking toxicology report says. He didn't die from a drug overdose. He died from a pig cop kneeling on his neck.

It's unlikely that you would die if Chauvin did that to you. It's a total prick move, don't get me wrong. However, it wouldn't kill you. Floyd's lungs weighed 2-3x normal due to his long-term fentanyl use. This is the same situation as the Eric Garner situation, EXCEPT that the police prevented the paramedics from rendering first aid and ignored pleas from everyone else who thought Floyd was dying. Garner wasn't a drug addict and Floyd was. However, preventing medical care when it has been plead by the victim, paramedics and bystanders is enough to establish criminal negligence of Chauvin and Thao.

Godstud wrote:You are defending him @Julian658, but I am not surprised. You talk out of the side of your mouth about how the cop should pay and then defend him. make up your racist mind. I know it's hard since the victim was black, for you to even think on his behalf. :knife:

Fuck your anti-racist religion crap. It's lies and bullshit to defend your blatant racist assholery.

Who are you to talk? You defend the establishment that puts these cops out on the street, that allows fentanyl to come from China and pour over the Mexican border, rig urban elections so that they are always in control, etc. Then, when your system pulls this kind of shit, you blame it on white people and racism and not the American politicians you champion from over in Thailand for some bizarre reason.

B0ycey wrote:I think we both should agree the knee is what killed him.

Medically speaking, it's not likely that it did. It's likely that Floyd was an OD case, but it's also likely that the paramedics had bronchodilators, oxygen and narcan. Would it have saved Floyd? It did the last time he pulled this stunt. However, when you tell the paramedics to stand down and the person you already have in cuffs dies, you're in big trouble.

B0ycey wrote:Floyd wasn't about to OD and that is the end of the matter.

We'll see what gets admitted into evidence. One of the autopsy reports made public suggests otherwise. His lungs were 2-3x normal weight due to long-term fentanyl use. It can lead to pleural effusion among other things.

Pants-of-dog wrote:So, they automatically defend any cop who assaults a person of colour and end up defending police brutality, despite the obvious drawback this has for everyone regardless of colour.

Police are called to do what they do. They don't just run around willy nilly putting people in hand cuffs and then putting a knee on their necks for some amount of time.

Julian658 wrote:American cops are poorly trained and they have killed both white and black people on a regular basis.

Police training is done according to well-reviewed standards. Training does vary from city to city and state to state, but it's not terrible. The problem is that they do exactly what they are told, and in this situation they are not told to administer first aid to a detainee/arrestee complaining of difficulty breathing, chest pains, etc. The training SHOULD tell them to administer first aid immediately and summon assistance. If the arrestee turns out to be lying, it's another charge. Yes, detainees panic, lie, and will do anything to get out of an arrest, but that does not absolve the police from a duty of care to people in their custody.

Julian658 wrote:The police brutality has lessened over the years, but in an area of social media and where the news media only puts emphasis on racism things appear to be worse.

If you're from South America, you know its 35x as bad down there in places like Rio. There's a police killing of a civilian on average multiple times a day in Rio alone. This does not interest Godstud. He considers that "whataboutism." The reality is he is not interested in police brutality, racism, etc. He's interested in left wing media narratives and is chronically obsessed with the United States.

Julian658 wrote:American cops are trained in such a way that they will return alive to their homes once thew shift is over. That is how they are trained. They will shoot to kill without hesitation, that is the training they have.

Yeah, they are sometimes a bit too trigger happy. Those are often split second decisions and have to be made in view of their own personal safety, but also of the public safety. That's why they are treated to such a wide berth.
#15164105
blackjack21 wrote:Medically speaking, it's not likely that it did. It's likely that Floyd was an OD case, but it's also likely that the paramedics had bronchodilators, oxygen and narcan. Would it have saved Floyd?


So @blackjack21, you taking the OD line are you? I would say I'm surprised, but I am not. Is everything split by party lines in America?

Serious question. Was Floyd about to die before he was arrested? Yes or no? It seems to me when the evidence is damning, people will clutch at straws to back their partylines. So the knee played no part did it? OK, whatever.
#15164127
B0ycey wrote:So @blackjack21, you taking the OD line are you? I would say I'm surprised, but I am not. Is everything split by party lines in America?

Serious question. Was Floyd about to die before he was arrested? Yes or no? It seems to me when the evidence is damning, people will clutch at straws to back their partylines. So the knee played no part did it? OK, whatever.


You are calling the kettle black. You guys think that a moderate centrist view is right wing.

Furthermore, it is not political to look at the toxicology and try to figure out how Floyd die. NO worries Chauvin, et al are guilty. Don't be so afraid Bo.
#15164129
Godstud wrote:It doesn't matter what the fucking toxicology report says. He didn't die from a drug overdose. He died from a pig cop kneeling on his neck.

Do you refer to the Thai police force as pigs, you know the ones involved in numerous human rights violations and the suppression of democracy and the attacks on the opposition. Oh no, they defend your comfortable expat life style so that's OK then.

Fuck your anti-racist religion crap. It's lies and bullshit to defend your blatant racist assholery.

Its a shame you can't show the same respect and deference to forum posters as you do to the Thai Royal family. Oh but what am I saying. The Thai Royal family's behaviour is beyond reproach, any privileges they have are thoroughly earned and deserved.

So I get. I get it. Policing these communities in America is so easy peasy. but why don't these know it all Liberals sign up to be police Officers and show us all how its done, rather than whining on the internet.
#15164146
@Rich Your complete ignorance is astounding, as usual. :lol:

I am a volunteer police officer in the local Thai police force. They do not have as big a problem with police violence against people(not like USA, anyways), and what little they do is not racially motivated. Granted, I don't live in Bangkok.

I'd refer to any police officer who did what Chauvin did, as piece of shit pig cop. Do you have a problem with calling it what it is?

I don't care about the Thai Royal Family. You care more than I do, as is evidenced by your constant referrals to them. You have a real hard-on for them, it appears. I guess that new King must really appeal to you. :excited:

Now, go back to your Klan meeting.
#15164197
blackjack21 wrote:It's unlikely that you would die if Chauvin did that to you.

Wrong!

If the oxygenated blood flow to the brain cells is restricted for more than one minute, irreversible brain tissue damage may occur. Therefore, the hold should be discontinued as soon as the officer gains control of the subject.

— The Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training, State of California

How long can the brain go without oxygen?

"If the oxygenated blood flow to the brain cells is restricted for more than one minute"

0 minutes - Loss of oxygen

1-2 minutes - Brain damage may begin

5 minutes - Death of brain cells and severe brain damage

10 minutes >>> Almost certain death
#15164209
ingliz wrote:Wrong!

If the oxygenated blood flow to the brain cells is restricted for more than one minute, irreversible brain tissue damage may occur. Therefore, the hold should be discontinued as soon as the officer gains control of the subject.

— The Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training, State of California

How long can the brain go without oxygen?

"If the oxygenated blood flow to the brain cells is restricted for more than one minute"

0 minutes - Loss of oxygen

1-2 minutes - Brain damage may begin

5 minutes - Death of brain cells and severe brain damage

10 minutes >>> Almost certain death


I watched the video yesterday. Floyd complained of difficulty breathing before Chauvin kneeled on him. I assume they will present the pathology report regarding the status of his lungs. Chauvin should have called an ambulance instead of kneeling on him. Chauvin assumed Floyd was histrionic on purpose. Chauvin is guilty!
#15164214
Julian658 wrote:Floyd complained of difficulty breathing before Chauvin kneeled on him.

After an officer pointed his service pistol at his head, he went into panic mode. "Don't shoot me," he said and started hyperventilating.

It's all on bodycam.

blackjack21 wrote:It's unlikely that you would die if Chauvin did that to you.

Multiple cases of in-custody death by positional asphyxia have been associated with the prone restraint position. So many that the DoJ felt it necessary to publish advice warning law enforcement of the dangers in using this form of restraint.

Restraint asphyxia is a form of positional asphyxia that occurs during the process of subduing and restraining an individual in a manner causing ventilation compromise (Stratton, Rogers, Brickett & Gruzinski, 2001, p. 190). As a consequence of the restraint application, respiration is compromised causing insufficient oxygen in the blood to meet the body’s oxygen needs or demands (hypoxia) which then results in a disturbed heart rhythm (cardiac arrhythmia (Patterson, et al., 1998, p. 62). Ultimately, ventricular tachyarrhythmia may precipitate ventricular fibrillation (uncoordinated flutter or quivering of the heart muscle), cardiac arrest, and death.

Prone restraint and the associated chest immobilization may also directly impact the functioning of the heart. The left side of the heart (left ventricle) pumps oxygenated blood into the body. The right side of the heart receives venous blood back from the body’s tissues and sends it into the lungs to expel carbon dioxide and pick up oxygen. The right atrium of the heart, which receives venous blood back for circulating in the body, is located midway between the vertebral column (or spine) and the sternum (or chest plate). When an individual is restrained prone, the right atrium is compressed. It is sandwiched between the sternum and vertebral column. This limits the heart’s capacity to receive blood return from the body. Meanwhile, the left side of the heart is still working, pumping blood into the brain and body as usual. With the blood not returning to the heart, it begins pooling in the tissues. When the pressure in the venous system builds up, it causes rupture of small venous branches resulting in small hemorrhages. Small purplish hemorrhagic spots (petechiae) have long been considered corroborative evidence of asphyxia. Petechiae appear when blood pools in the small veins (venules) and capillaries, due to an impairment or obstruction in venous blood return in the presence of continued arterial input (Ely & Hirsch, 2000, p. 1276).

Any individual’s respiratory capacity will be compromised when restrained prone for a sufficient duration of time.
Last edited by ingliz on 01 Apr 2021 14:18, edited 1 time in total.
#15164218
Are some of us in this thread actually arguing that Floyd was overdosing and actually on his way out? I just sat through a clip of Ben Shapiro trying to argue the same thing :|

I admire people that can transcend their humanity for the sake of our legal system. I salute you, because if it were left up to me I’d lock Chauvin up and throw away the key, zero fucks given :|
#15164238
ingliz wrote:After an officer pointed his service pistol at his head, he went into panic mode. "Don't shoot me," he said and started hyperventilating.

It's all on bodycam.


Multiple cases of in-custody death by positional asphyxia have been associated with the prone restraint position. So many that the DoJ felt it necessary to publish advice warning law enforcement of the dangers in using this form of restraint.

Restraint asphyxia is a form of positional asphyxia that occurs during the process of subduing and restraining an individual in a manner causing ventilation compromise (Stratton, Rogers, Brickett & Gruzinski, 2001, p. 190). As a consequence of the restraint application, respiration is compromised causing insufficient oxygen in the blood to meet the body’s oxygen needs or demands (hypoxia) which then results in a disturbed heart rhythm (cardiac arrhythmia (Patterson, et al., 1998, p. 62). Ultimately, ventricular tachyarrhythmia may precipitate ventricular fibrillation (uncoordinated flutter or quivering of the heart muscle), cardiac arrest, and death.

Prone restraint and the associated chest immobilization may also directly impact the functioning of the heart. The left side of the heart (left ventricle) pumps oxygenated blood into the body. The right side of the heart receives venous blood back from the body’s tissues and sends it into the lungs to expel carbon dioxide and pick up oxygen. The right atrium of the heart, which receives venous blood back for circulating in the body, is located midway between the vertebral column (or spine) and the sternum (or chest plate). When an individual is restrained prone, the right atrium is compressed. It is sandwiched between the sternum and vertebral column. This limits the heart’s capacity to receive blood return from the body. Meanwhile, the left side of the heart is still working, pumping blood into the brain and body as usual. With the blood not returning to the heart, it begins pooling in the tissues. When the pressure in the venous system builds up, it causes rupture of small venous branches resulting in small hemorrhages. Small purplish hemorrhagic spots (petechiae) have long been considered corroborative evidence of asphyxia. Petechiae appear when blood pools in the small veins (venules) and capillaries, due to an impairment or obstruction in venous blood return in the presence of continued arterial input (Ely & Hirsch, 2000, p. 1276).

Any individual’s respiratory capacity will be compromised when restrained prone for a sufficient duration of time.



You make good points. Tony Timpa died in 2016 after a cop kneeled on his back for 13 minutes. I don't believe Timpa was on drugs at the time; however he was mentally retarded and acting up. Cops can be ruthless. The Timpa case never made the national news for obvious reasons.

i would love to see the autopsy report.
#15164239
ness31 wrote:Are some of us in this thread actually arguing that Floyd was overdosing and actually on his way out? I just sat through a clip of Ben Shapiro trying to argue the same thing :|

I admire people that can transcend their humanity for the sake of our legal system. I salute you, because if it were left up to me I’d lock Chauvin up and throw away the key, zero fucks given :|

I hear you. But, some of us like to seek wisdom and have escaped the echo chambers.
#15164245
Julian658 wrote:I hear you. But, some of us like to seek wisdom and have escaped the echo chambers.


Share the wisdom *shrugs*

What that man did was indefensible and inhumane. He murdered Floyd. He intentionally incapacitated him and knew that by putting his knee on Floyd’s neck he’d would be greatly diminishing his ability to breath.

Indefensible.
#15164346
ness31 wrote:Share the wisdom *shrugs*

What that man did was indefensible and inhumane. He murdered Floyd. He intentionally incapacitated him and knew that by putting his knee on Floyd’s neck he’d would be greatly diminishing his ability to breath.

Indefensible.

No need for the straw man. I agree 100% that Chauvin is guilty. However, out of curiosity I want to be able to see the toxicology and autopsy report. Does that make sense to you?
#15164347
Pants-of-dog wrote:Has the MPD actually made any systemic changes, or is Chauvin being portrayed as a bad apple?


The chief of police in Minneapolis was black at the time of GF death. I suspect the procedure was blessed by him. That in itself is incredible!
#15164348
Julian658 wrote:No need for the straw man. I agree 100% that Chauvin is guilty. However, out of curiosity I want to be able to see the toxicology and autopsy report. Does that make sense to you?

Let say his BAL is 500, is positive for marijuana, cocaine, metamphetamines, benzos, opoiods, mushrooms, fentanyl, heroine, cough syrup, tobacco, cafeine.
Now what? we can just kill him?
#15164350
XogGyux wrote:Let say his BAL is 500, is positive for marijuana, cocaine, metamphetamines, benzos, opoiods, mushrooms, fentanyl, heroine, cough syrup, tobacco, cafeine.
Now what? we can just kill him?


I want to see what his lungs look like.
Chauvin was an idiot. At the onset GF was calling for his mom and complaining of SOB. After a couple of minutes his cry diminished and yet Chauvin kept the knee on his back. Total idiot move that was likely driven by racism or low IQ.

GF could be 99.9999% on his way out and Chauvin is still guilty by kneeling on him.
#15164358
Julian658 wrote:No need for the straw man. I agree 100% that Chauvin is guilty. However, out of curiosity I want to be able to see the toxicology and autopsy report. Does that make sense to you?


So you agree with an apparent strawman argument? :lol:

It was obvious even without a toxicology report that Floyd was high as a kite on some serious shit. That shouldn’t work in Chauvins favour of getting him off the hook. It should in fact have served as a warning to treat him with caution, not sit on his fucking neck for 9 minutes. Even for Chauvins own legal protection as a police officer- where was his duty of care? He was completely void of any awareness.

He was like a trained dog told to sit who would not move until given the okay. So, yes, I’d have liked to see his colleagues in the dock next to him.

Back to the possibility of Floyd being on the cusp of death via overdose - to be honest I didn’t get the impression that he was dying. Maybe an expert in palliative care can better detect those signs. Even if Chauvin was the actor to speed up that process, by what fucking right? The indignity and inhumanity is intolerable. We already walked past and accepted that standard once. Can we really do it again in a court of law? :hmm:
#15164397
ingliz wrote:Multiple cases of in-custody death by positional asphyxia have been associated with the prone restraint position. So many that the DoJ felt it necessary to publish advice warning law enforcement of the dangers in using this form of restraint.

Your citation is in the context of restraining BOTH hands and feet together in the prone position for persons requiring restraint for excited delirium. This study would not hurt Chauvin, who is clearly not a medical expert. Rather, it hurts authors of police officer standards training guides and lawyers for police departments who suggest that the type of behavior Chauvin was trained to perform was okay. The bigger problem for Chauvin and Thao is that they prevented medical treatment of someone in custody. That's criminal negligence.

ingliz wrote:Any individual’s respiratory capacity will be compromised when restrained prone for a sufficient duration of time.

That depends on the restraint. Patients are routinely placed in the prone position in hospitals during treatment for covid, and blood oxygen levels increase. It's when they sit up straight that O2 levels drop.

ness31 wrote:Are some of us in this thread actually arguing that Floyd was overdosing and actually on his way out? I just sat through a clip of Ben Shapiro trying to argue the same thing :|

I admire people that can transcend their humanity for the sake of our legal system. I salute you, because if it were left up to me I’d lock Chauvin up and throw away the key, zero fucks given :|

I'd lock Chauvin and Thao up, because they denied access to medical care to someone in distress who was in their custody and that person died. However, it's not a clear cut case of first degree murder. They're assholes, no doubt. However, upping the charge because you want to up the punishment isn't how the system is supposed to work. That's how so many winnable cases end up losing or getting reversed on appeals.

Julian658 wrote:Tony Timpa died in 2016 after a cop kneeled on his back for 13 minutes. I don't believe Timpa was on drugs at the time; however he was mentally retarded and acting up.

Timpa had depression and schizophrenia, wasn't taking his medication, and toxicology found cocaine in his system. The cause of death was cardiac arrest, and secondarily stress associated with restraint. It's the Eric Garner case where he was not on any drugs. He was asthmatic.

Julian658 wrote:At the onset GF was calling for his mom and complaining of SOB. After a couple of minutes his cry diminished and yet Chauvin kept the knee on his back. Total idiot move that was likely driven by racism or low IQ.

Yes, and paramedics tried to intervene and the police pushed them back. Chauvin and Thao are clearly culpable for that. I don't think they can be blamed for not knowing what Floyd's pulmonary system looked like, but they can certainly be blamed for hearing the very clear symptoms of medical distress and not rendering care themselves or allowing paramedics to do the same. So I think there's no way they can get passed criminal negligence.

ness31 wrote:Back to the possibility of Floyd being on the cusp of death via overdose - to be honest I didn’t get the impression that he was dying.

There are so many people dying of opioid addiction. His condition was such that if he had lived through that arrest, he'd probably be dead soon enough. People don't last that long at that age when doing heavy drugs.

ness31 wrote:Even if Chauvin was the actor to speed up that process, by what fucking right? The indignity and inhumanity is intolerable.

Yes, but that's the Democrat political machine. It doesn't stop until officials stop telling them to do that sort of thing. People like Chauvin don't think. They follow directions. They do what they're told. This will just keep happening, because people in urban areas can't imagine being ruled by anything but Democrats.
#15164399
I'd lock Chauvin and Thao up, because they denied access to medical care to someone in distress who was in their custody and that person died. However, it's not a clear cut case of first degree murder. They're assholes, no doubt. However, upping the charge because you want to up the punishment isn't how the system is supposed to work. That's how so many winnable cases end up losing or getting reversed on appeals.


Oh, it’s definitely murder...I don’t think there is any question there. Was it premeditated? That’s the point we should be looking at.
I don’t see how a person with authority - like a police officer - could have thought it appropriate to treat the Floyd situation in the manner it was handled.
Ask yourself, if an ambulance had been called instead of cops, what would their course of action have been? First Responders, whose job it is to hold human safety paramount!

Oh no wait...we can’t think like that anymore can we? I’ve deferred to
‘whataboutism’ :roll:

Edit - just to clarify a bit further, it’s murder not simply because they denied him medical attention, they proactively hastened his decline. Was that done on purpose?

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