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#15163986
Saeko wrote:Oh ok, I see you believing ridiculous nonsense without even having any evidence.... and yet you're complaining about religions. Curious!

I don't have the official toxicology report. That will come out in the trial. However, many news outlet, somes of them on the left reported that Floyd had large quantities of Fentanyl on his system.

Floyd was a smoker, and he had spent years using street drugs. On that evening, the autopsies reveal, Floyd had a large amount of fentanyl, a small amount of methamphetamine and THC — the active ingredient in marijuana — in his blood.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/g ... story.html

That this is news to you is astounding. I thought this was common knowledge as it was widely reported.
#15163989
Julian658 wrote:Chauvin is guilty. I cannot overstate that anymore.

However, I believe Floyd was was ill before the knee touched him. Let's wait and see the results of the toxicology. That Floyd was overdosing does not exonerate Chauvin.

Why is this so hard to accept to the left religious anti-racist left?


Sure, let's wait for the toxicology report. But considering he had just gone to the shops the findings are going to be negligible at best. Hardly ODing was he? But rather than make this about politics, if we both agree that Chauvin is guilty, then why are you trying to find an excuse for him? Was the knee to the neck what killed Floyd to you? If the answer is yes, the rest of your points are just waffle.
#15163994
B0ycey wrote:Sure, let's wait for the toxicology report. But considering he had just gone to the shops the findings are going to be negligible at best. Hardly ODing was he? But rather than make this about politics, if we both agree that Chauvin is guilty, then why are you trying to find an excuse for him? Was the knee to the neck what killed Floyd to you? If the answer is yes, the rest of your points are just waffle.


Your ideology does not allow you to evaluate reality. George Floyd likely died from a combination of factors: The knee and the drugs. However, it does not matter because Chauvin is guilty. If Chauvin is not found guilty the Crusaders of the anti-racsim religion will make sure America burns all summer. Nevertheless, that does not prevent a reasonable person to make a more objective analysis of the situation.

This is the problem with those that take their ideology as religion. They can only agree with their side of the echo chamber.

“He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion..."

John Stuart Mill
#15164003
I think the point is while one may be factual in mentioning parts of the toxicology report, the real concern is what motivates such a focus on such facts if they are indeed insignificant in the cause of Floyd's death. Basically one can be speaking about true things while it is used to reinforce false beliefs which give a particular significance to those facts.
To help illustrate, here's Zizek on the reaction after the natural disaster in New Oreleans.
https://inthesetimes.com/article/the-subject-supposed-to-loot-and-rape
And exactly the same goes for the looting in New Orleans: Even if all the reports on violence and rapes had proven to be factually true, the stories circulating about them would still be ​“pathological” and racist, since what motivated these stories were not facts, but racist prejudices, the satisfaction felt by those who would be able to say: ​“You see, Blacks really are like that, violent barbarians under the thin layer of civilization!” In other words, we would be dealing with what could be called lying in the guise of truth: Even if what I am saying is factually true, the motives that make me say it are false.
Or the same structural relaton of a pathology when it comes to Lacans example of the jealous husband.
[URL]https://pure.au.dk/portal/en/activities/the-jealous-husband-or-why-conspiracy-theorists-are-always-wrong-even-when-they-are-right(9e9c6a90-3ec6-11dc-bee9-02004c4f4f50).html[/url
Jacques Lacan said that a husband who is pathologically jealous from suspecting that his wife is sleeping with other men is still to be considered as a pathological case, even though his wife is in fact cheating on him. Regardless of possible factual evidence of the suspicion, it is the fanaticism in looking for it everywhere, which is of interest to psychoanalysis: Why does the guy invest everything into this one question? What are the fears that he avoids confronting through the obsession with every detail of her behaviour?

This doesn't produce a conclusive result but marks one with suspicion.
As such, an appeal merely to objectivity isn't much of a shield in this case as there isn't a purely objective standpoint even while referencing objective data and facts. Facts are always in position to t a theoretical framework which gives them significance.
And the factoring of something as significant in causing a death is a point of how we conceptualize causality.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/spirkin/works/dialectical-materialism/ch02-s06.html
Immediate causes should be distinguished from mediate causes, that is to say, those that evoke and determine an effect through a number of intervening stages. For example, a person gets badly hurt psychologically, but the damage does not take effect at once. Several years may elapse and then in certain circumstances, among which the person's condition at the time has a certain significance, the effect begins to make itself felt in the symptoms of illness. When analysing causality we sometimes speak of a "minor" cause giving rise to major effects. This so-called "minor cause of a major effect" is the cause not of the whole long and ramified chain of phenomena that produces the final result, but only the cause of the first link in the chain. Sometimes the "minor cause" is merely a factor that starts up quite different causal factors. These are "triggering" factors, factors relating to the initial stage of avalanche processes and to a whole system's loss of labile equilibrium.

Any phenomenon depends on a definite diversity of conditions to bring it into existence. While it is only one of the circumstances conducive to a certain effect, the cause is the most active and effective element in this process, it is an interaction that converts necessary and sufficient conditions into a result. We sometimes treat the absence of something as a cause. For example, some illnesses are attributed to lack of resistance in an organism or a lack of vitamins. However, absence should not be regarded as a cause but merely as a condition for disease. For a cause to actually take effect there must be certain conditions, that is to say, phenomena essential for the occurrence of the given event but not in themselves causing it. Conditions cannot in themselves give rise to the effect, but the cause is also powerless without them. No cause can give rise to illness if the organism is not susceptible to it. We know that when a person's organism is infected with certain microbes he may fall ill or he may not. The way a cause takes effect and the nature of the consequence depend on the character of the conditions. Sometimes there is only one direct and immediate cause of death or injury—a bullet. But more often the causes and conditions are intricately combined, some of them being only secondary circumstances.

However, the context of the discussion is interested in the responsibility of Chauvin for Floyd's death, not every little causal factor such as Floyd being in public that day.
[URL]https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/determinism.htm[/url
Words like causality and freedom are meaningful not simply as descriptive of the world, but particularly as tools for our own action: how do we understand the world and how do we change it? How do I understand my own actions? I can understand the rash on my skin as the effect of psoriasis, but if I claim that my opinions or my actions are effects of external or prior causes rather than free acts of my own volition, then I commit a performative contradiction. To take another persons’ consciousness to be the effect of causes, is to regard them as an object to be controlled and manipulated, and not as a rational being. My doctor or psychologist may with good reason regard my actions in this way, as the effect of external causes, but if I am brought before a judge for a crime, I can be committed to prison or a psychiatric ward according to whether I am regarded as a rational human being morally responsible for my action or not. Even when, as a result of reflection, I want to change my own behavior, I do not regard my behavior as caused by external forces – I take moral responsibility for it. If I become aware of how my opinions, actions or habits have been formed by external factors, then I can decide to change them or not. Analysis of consciousness by causality leads, at best, to an infinite regress.

There are legal concepts to denote culpability but in simple terms we are responsible for what is a foreseeable consequence of our actions.
https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/hegel-on-action.htm
The ‘right to (not) know’ is a formal right which turns out to have a limited scope, because when Guy decides to set fire to the grass he has the responsibility to know that the fire could get out of control and could spread to his neighbour’s property. If he meant that the fire should spread or if he did not take the trouble to see if it might or take action to prevent its spread, he is responsible, because the spreading of the fire was implicit in his purpose.

But what if Mrs. Fawkes had secretly hidden her savings in a box in the grass and the money was destroyed by the fire? If Guy had no reason to believe that something of value could be hidden there, he is not responsible for the destruction of what his wife hid in the grass – it was not part of his purpose. Hegel contrasts this with the ancients for whom the agent’s knowledge was not to be taken into account in assigning responsibility – Oedipus was condemned for killing his father, even though he could not have known at the time that King Laius was his father.

Formally, the agent is not responsible for unintended consequences of their action which were not implicit in his purpose
...
The agent’s purpose is realised in the action and the consequences of the action belong to the action, so the subject is responsible for all the consequences of their immediate action. What frees Guy from responsibility for the destruction of the money his wife hid in the grass is that the actions of another subject with another purpose intervened and their action combined with Guy’s action so as to bring about the unfortunate consequence.

Of course there is the specifics of intention also, was Chauvin reckless i.e manslaughter, or did it go so far as to be a degree of murder? while there is some effort to assert a relationship between them, i wonder what motive could arise.
#15164008
Julian658 wrote:Your ideology does not allow you to evaluate reality. George Floyd likely died from a combination of factors:


And what ideology is that? You keep calling me a Capitalist as I have told you numerous times I am a SOCIAL DEMOCRAT. Just because you cannot comprehend that a mandate which is democratically elected cannot by definition be authoritarian doesn't mean much but does show me you are biased when it comes to other discussions we have.

As for Floyd, people don't just die from drugs unless he was in the process of ODings. Not that Manjuarna is known for people ODing randomly in any case. Which means there is another thing that killed him. Namely the knee. But what I find so bizarre is that we both agree that Chauvin is guilty, but you cannot for some reason bring yourself to say Chauvin was guilty still without bringing drugs into our discussion. The taxonomy report will basically say he had traces of drugs in his system and that it wasn't enough to kill him. Which should be obvious to you considering he went into a shop with counterfeit money. And then you lot will say that is a conspiracy as that is the kind of BS we saw from Charlotteville when trying to deflect the blame from Fields.
#15164011
B0ycey wrote:And what ideology is that? You keep calling me a Capitalist as I have told you numerous times I am a SOCIAL DEMOCRAT. Just because you cannot comprehend that a mandate which is democratically elected cannot by definition be authoritarian doesn't mean much but does show me you are biased when it comes to other discussions we have.

As for Floyd, people don't just die from drugs unless he was in the process of ODings. Not that Manjuarna is known for people ODing randomly in any case. Which means there is another thing that killed him. Namely the knee. But what I find so bizarre is that we both agree that Chauvin is guilty, but you cannot for some reason bring yourself to say Chauvin was guilty still without bringing drugs into our discussion. The taxonomy report will basically say he had traces of drugs in his system and that it wasn't enough to kill him. Which should be obvious to you considering he went into a shop with counterfeit money. And then you lot will say that is a conspiracy as that is the kind of BS we saw from Charlotteville when trying to deflect the blame from Fields.



It is toxicology, not taxonomy. We do not have the formal report, just wait and see before making a firm decision. If the report says the drug levels were not high enough to kill------ Chauvin is guilty. If the report says the drug level was high enough to cause death by OD------- Chauvin is still guilty. This is a moot point, but all evidence has to be presented.

Whatever a democracy votes for is not always the right thing to do. That is why the USA is a Republic that is guided by the constitution. You need to go back and study this.
#15164014
It doesn't matter what the fucking toxicology report says. He didn't die from a drug overdose. He died from a pig cop kneeling on his neck.


You are defending him @Julian658, but I am not surprised. You talk out of the side of your mouth about how the cop should pay and then defend him. make up your racist mind. I know it's hard since the victim was black, for you to even think on his behalf. :knife:

Fuck your anti-racist religion crap. It's lies and bullshit to defend your blatant racist assholery.
#15164016
Godstud wrote:It doesn't matter what the fucking toxicology report says. He didn't die from a drug overdose. He died from a pig cop kneeling on his neck.


You are defending him @Julian658, but I am not surprised. You talk out of the side of your mouth about how the cop should pay and then defend him. make up your racist mind. I know it's hard since the victim was black, for you to even think on his behalf. :knife:

Fuck your anti-racist religion crap. It's lies and bullshit to defend your blatant racist assholery.

This is how a convert of the anti-racism religion generally speaks or sees the world. There is no room for discussion or reason. If you do not agree 100% you are excommunicated (now known as cancel culture).

This is they type of post that demonstrates the profound religious devotion to anti-racism.


This is religion folks.
#15164021
Julian658 wrote:It is toxicology, not taxonomy. We do not have the formal report, just wait and see before making a firm decision. If the report says the drug levels were not high enough to kill------ Chauvin is guilty. If the report says the drug level was high enough to cause death by OD------- Chauvin is still guilty. This is a moot point, but all evidence has to be presented.


Sorry my autocorrect isn't to your liking Julie. I told my phone company they need to do much better because some people on the Internet can't process a conversation without bitching about it. :lol:

Anyway, thanks for the reply. Chauvin to you is guilty whether there was drugs in Floyd's system or not but you want us to debate this anyway? OK. So fucking what. We both think Chauvin is guilty. Why bring this up? Not that it was enough to OD on. I think we both should agree the knee is what killed him. Perhaps you should get a mate of yours to see what 9 and a half minutes with a knee on your neck is like, without drugs of course.
#15164027
B0ycey wrote:Sorry my autocorrect isn't to your liking Julie. I told my phone company they need to do much better because some people on the Internet can't process a conversation without bitching about it. :lol:

Anyway, thanks for the reply. Chauvin to you is guilty whether there was drugs in Floyd's system or not but you want us to debate this anyway? OK. So fucking what. We both think Chauvin is guilty. Why bring this up? Not that it was enough to OD on. I think we both should agree the knee is what killed him. Perhaps you should get a mate of yours to see what 9 and a half minutes with a knee on your neck is like, without drugs of course.

I do not disagree, however, I do not want to engage in discussions that are black and white with no nuance.

Actually I do not disagree with the fact that the knee could be the only sole cause of death. Tony Timpa a white man with Nordic looks died in the same manner with a knee to his back in 2016. I recall he had the knee on his back for 13 minutes. You would not know this as the media has no interest in reporting white on white police brutality.

So yes, it is possible. If you make a good statement I will let you know about it.
#15164031
Julian658 wrote:I do not disagree, however, I do not want to engage in discussions that are black and white with no nuance.

Actually I do not disagree with the fact that the knee could be the only sole cause of death. Tony Timpa a white man with Nordic looks died in the same manner with a knee to his back in 2016. I recall he had the knee on his back for 13 minutes. You would not know this as the media has no interest in reporting white on white police brutality.

So yes, it is possible. If you make a good statement I will let you know about it.


I don't think BLM was ever a movement about black vs White. I see it as a movement about black people being treated differently to white people. And to be frank, this case shouldn't be about race politics either. Chauvin was guilty of Floyds death and I don't want any white supremacist thinking this is a conspiracy about drugs and deep state. Floyd wasn't about to OD and that is the end of the matter.
#15164038
The trouble is that a significant number of people will support (or at least, find a way to excuse) police brutality. There also seems to be a significant overlap between these people and people who excuse or support racism against non-whites.

So, they automatically defend any cop who assaults a person of colour and end up defending police brutality, despite the obvious drawback this has for everyone regardless of colour.
#15164039
B0ycey wrote:I don't think BLM was ever a movement about black vs White. I see it as a movement about black people being treated differently to white people. And to be frank, this case shouldn't be about race politics either. Chauvin was guilty of Floyds death and I don't want any white supremacist thinking this is a conspiracy about drugs and deep state. Floyd wasn't about to OD and that is the end of the matter.


As a Latin American I am not familiar with the term white supremacist. What does that mean to you? Do you think white people are supreme?
#15164041
Julian658 wrote:As a Latin American I am not familiar with the term white supremacist. What does that mean to you?


Simple. Anyone who thinks the white race is superior to any other race and acts in accordance to that belief. But I did say this case should not be about race so please don't make me debate this issue on this thread with you. Just call up PoD. He loves debating this kind of shit on any thread.
Last edited by B0ycey on 31 Mar 2021 17:25, edited 1 time in total.
#15164042
Pants-of-dog wrote:The trouble is that a significant number of people will support (or at least, find a way to excuse) police brutality. There also seems to be a significant overlap between these people and people who excuse or support racism against non-whites.

So, they automatically defend any cop who assaults a person of colour and end up defending police brutality, despite the obvious drawback this has for everyone regardless of colour.

POD

American cops are poorly trained and they have killed both white and black people on a regular basis. The police brutality has lessened over the years, but in an area of social media and where the news media only puts emphasis on racism things appear to be worse.

American cops are trained in such a way that they will return alive to their homes once thew shift is over. That is how they are trained. They will shoot to kill without hesitation, that is the training they have. They are instructed to fire multiple times. I am saddened that blacks chief of police have not altered this training. I suspect the unions are behind this.
#15164044
B0ycey wrote:Simple. Anyone who thinks the white race is superior to any other race and acts in accordance to that belief. But I did say this case should not be about race so please don't make me debate this issue on this thread with you. Just call up PoD. He loves debating this kind of shit on any thread.

The term makes no sense to me. They could think they are God for all I care.
#15164074
Julian658 wrote:I am not familiar with the term

white supremacist

noun

a person who believes that white people constitute a superior race and should therefore dominate society, typically to the exclusion or detriment of other racial and ethnic groups, in particular black or Jewish people.
#15164076
ingliz wrote:white supremacist

noun

a person who believes that white people constitute a superior race and should therefore dominate society, typically to the exclusion or detriment of other racial and ethnic groups, in particular black or Jewish people.

Yes, it is about what a person believes about himself. How do you control thoughts? Why not concentrate on actual discrimination?
#15164090
@Julian658

Your thoughts determine your actions.

We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts, we make the world.
Speak or act with an impure mind
And trouble will follow you
As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart.


— The Dhammapada: The Sayings of the Buddha


:lol:
Last edited by ingliz on 31 Mar 2021 19:09, edited 1 time in total.
#15164092
ingliz wrote:@Julian658

Your thoughts determine your actions.


:lol:

I do not think you can reduce racism by trying to manipulate the thoughts of others.

The best way to reduce discrimination based on racial group is to change the negative stereotypes into positive stereotypes.

The second best way is by mixing and hence destroying the dominant racial group. However, racism would be replaced by classism.

The best solution is to change the negative stereotypes.

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