- 28 Apr 2021 03:23
#15169671
You are just not seeing things from the Russian side. What is the upside for Russia allowing a Nato presence in Ukraine in exchange for a possible Ukrainian friendship? Was there ever any friendship on the part of ethnic Ukrainians towards Russians? Ukrainians remember the famines inflicted on them during Stalin's collectivisations; and Russians also recall that Ukrainians cozied up to the Nazis and volunteered for the Waffen SS Galicia. Do you consider the possibility that to Russians it is a lose lose situation? Russia allows Nato to roll up from the borders of Ukraine with Poland to the Donbass, on the approaches to Voronezh and Rostov; supposedly in exchange for a friendly Ukraine that never materialises?
How does it make sense, if I may ask, for a Russian to believe it is a good deal to have Nato only a couple of hundred miles from Voronezh, as opposed to much further away on the other side of the border of Ukraine with Poland? And if Ukraine joined Nato how does that not amount to a free gift from Russia to Nato of the naval base at Sevastopol?
And what in the history of Russia since 1991, when the Soviet Union collapsed, should reassure Russians that Nato's chokehold will not tighten? You recall that at the collapse of the Warsaw Pact and Soviet Union the gentlemanly understanding between the leaderships at the time was that Nato will not take advantage of the Russian situations.
As to friendship. In politics there are no permanent friends, only permanent interests. Not everyone is satisfied in Europe/Asia. Greece has its problems with Turkey. If it worsens- and I hope it doesnt- the US may have to chose between one or the other. The one rejected will naturally look towards Moscow.
And it also boils down to how Moscow plays its hand. As long as Moscow can demonstrate that its actions are a line in the sand to Nato approach, and not so much what Ukraine is up to, you can be certain that old Europe of Germany, France, Italy, Greece will not join new Europe of Baltics, Ukraine, ,Georgia to take on Moscow.
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin
Let's not get started with the "whataboutism" here now Juin. What about the US? What about this? What about that? "Whataboutism." You know, Russia's present course is going to leave them all alone with no real friends in the world. Russia needs to change course, otherwise, it's just not going to have any real friends because nobody trusts them and are too busy trying to protect or defend themselves from any Russian designs or aggressive moves. Russia will be judged by it's actions, not it's words and given this is the case, Russia should take actions that show it is a friend and not a foe. Otherwise, Russia is just going to be all alone and isolated in the world.
You are just not seeing things from the Russian side. What is the upside for Russia allowing a Nato presence in Ukraine in exchange for a possible Ukrainian friendship? Was there ever any friendship on the part of ethnic Ukrainians towards Russians? Ukrainians remember the famines inflicted on them during Stalin's collectivisations; and Russians also recall that Ukrainians cozied up to the Nazis and volunteered for the Waffen SS Galicia. Do you consider the possibility that to Russians it is a lose lose situation? Russia allows Nato to roll up from the borders of Ukraine with Poland to the Donbass, on the approaches to Voronezh and Rostov; supposedly in exchange for a friendly Ukraine that never materialises?
How does it make sense, if I may ask, for a Russian to believe it is a good deal to have Nato only a couple of hundred miles from Voronezh, as opposed to much further away on the other side of the border of Ukraine with Poland? And if Ukraine joined Nato how does that not amount to a free gift from Russia to Nato of the naval base at Sevastopol?
And what in the history of Russia since 1991, when the Soviet Union collapsed, should reassure Russians that Nato's chokehold will not tighten? You recall that at the collapse of the Warsaw Pact and Soviet Union the gentlemanly understanding between the leaderships at the time was that Nato will not take advantage of the Russian situations.
As to friendship. In politics there are no permanent friends, only permanent interests. Not everyone is satisfied in Europe/Asia. Greece has its problems with Turkey. If it worsens- and I hope it doesnt- the US may have to chose between one or the other. The one rejected will naturally look towards Moscow.
And it also boils down to how Moscow plays its hand. As long as Moscow can demonstrate that its actions are a line in the sand to Nato approach, and not so much what Ukraine is up to, you can be certain that old Europe of Germany, France, Italy, Greece will not join new Europe of Baltics, Ukraine, ,Georgia to take on Moscow.