BREAKING: Moscow announces END to massive troop buildup near Ukraine - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15169048
Rugoz wrote:It's a menace to the small weak Eastern European countries of the former SU. That's why they want to be members of NATO. I don't want my country to be a NATO member, but if it were located next to Russia, I 100% would.

Yet some people don't get this very trivial truth.


Great post, still

" small weak Eastern European countries of the former SU. "

Ukraine is the biggest European country , size of 7 Germanys
weak ? not really, Ukraine fights Moscow imperialism 7 years non - stop, which European country can fight a war for 7 years ?

we free world need Ukraine (as well as Belarus, Georgia ) in EU and NATO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem as soon as possible

noemon wrote:The problem is that Iran-type sanctions are not even being discussed against Russian aggression in the Ukraine and Georgia and they are not even being discussed for Turkish aggression against EU members Cyprus and Greece. So for non-EU Ukraine and Georgia the future is quite grim as it has been for a while.

In this sense, Russian imperalism has already succeeded as it has imposed a fait accomplis and has created intractable circumstances.

The same way Turkish imperialism has entrenched itself in Cyprus.

Several European countries like Germany, the UK and Spain prefer to coddle up with the aggressors for commercial interests so the main struggle is to convince these countries that invasion in Europe cannot be justified in the service of their petty corporate interests and that the Peace we have enjoyed since 1945 is under grave danger as the principles that hold this peace together are no longer upheld by them.


Not yet, but soon it will be impossible for our elites to ignore violent Muscovite imperialism.

"Czech Senate declares Moscow Putin´s GRU Vrbětice attack an act of state terrorism!!"

viewtopic.php?f=42&t=180281
#15169051
litwin wrote:Ukraine is the biggest European country , size of 7 Germanys
weak ? not really, Ukraine fights Moscow imperialism 7 years non - stop, which European country can fight a war for 7 years ?



I agree with you, I do not think people appreciate what it is like to be at a 7-year war with the Russian army.

The fact that this is happening inside Europe of this century is telling that the post-war peace has already collapsed.
#15169056
Rugoz wrote:It's a menace to the small weak Eastern European countries of the former SU. That's why they want to be members of NATO. I don't want my country to be a NATO member, but if it were located next to Russia, I 100% would.

Yet some people don't get this very trivial truth.

Uh huh. And why does the Anglo-American alliance welcome them with open arms? They're under no obligation to do so. If they had no strategic aims against Russia, it would be much smarter from a realpolitik standpoint to refuse their applications. In this fantasy world where NATO is purely defensive and peaceful, a sworn commitment to come to the full military defence of some tinpot country like Estonia or Latvia is a huge liability with almost no upside.

The truth is these countries' "fear" of Russia is an excuse for America and the UK to do what they already wanted to do anyway. NATO expansion eastwards began very quickly after the collapse of the USSR, and not in response to any new "aggression" by Russia. Casting Russia's subsequent reactions to this expansion as "aggression" or "menace" is absurd.

noemon wrote:The problem is that Iran-type sanctions are not even being discussed against Russian aggression in the Ukraine and Georgia and they are not even being discussed for Turkish aggression against EU members Cyprus and Greece.

Because Turkey is a NATO member in good standing, noemon. :) Why would western countries put crippling sanctions on a country they are sworn to protect?

This is why I find your defence of this obsolete Cold War alliance puzzling. It isn't about any high minded ideals of "maintaining peace in Europe", but about weakening and isolating Russia. American geopolitical strategists openly admit this. Turkey, due to its control of the Bosphorus, is ultimately much more important to America's anti-Russian aims than Greece ever will be.
#15169057
Heisenberg wrote:Because Turkey is a NATO member in good standing, noemon. :) Why would western countries put crippling sanctions on a country they are sworn to protect?

This is why I find your defence of this obsolete Cold War alliance puzzling. It isn't about any high minded ideals of "maintaining peace in Europe", but about weakening and isolating Russia. American geopolitical strategists openly admit this. Turkey, due to its control of the Bosphorus, is ultimately much more important to America's anti-Russian aims than Greece ever will be.


Because Turkey is attacking a fellow NATO member, coveting its national territory and is threatening, occupying and extending that occupation to EU member Cyprus.

This is not being in "good standing" in any sense of the term but the very definition of the opposite.

I find your pro-Russian and pro-Turkish apologies as more than puzzling, you want to justify the suffering of the Ukrainians and the Cypriots and the Georgians and simply sweep them under the rug as if there is nothing to see there. :roll:

You do not want to see sanctions against Russia or Turkey for their aggression and open war activities, it's quite astonishing.

You are basically saying that no action should be taken whatsoever, being born near these aggressors is just something that the unfortunate will have to come to terms with and that not even basic spiritual support(.ie empathy) in a forum should be offered to the people suffering of foreign occupation and aggression.
#15169060
litwin wrote:once U. and Georgia ARE IN NATO , problem will be solved , Moscow empire has to be destroyed




"delenda est Muscovy"? Straight from Cato's playbook. Imperialism 101. Except today's Cato is not garbed in a Roman toga. But the methods remain the same. "Moscow must be destroyed", repeats incessantly to who will listen, the Kievan Comic cum President Volodymyr. A poor Cato imitation. An Impostor! An Impostore! A Fake! A papier mâché Trojan Horse!
#15169063
noemon wrote:I agree with you, I do not think people appreciate what it is like to be at a 7-year war with the Russian army.

The fact that this is happening inside Europe of this century is telling that the post-war peace has already collapsed.

whats interesting here that Ukraine has guts to do fight barbarians on its own, meanwhile EU/NATO states can not do it even with EU/NATO behind , we have to start a thread about Moscow bombings of Czech and Bulgarian states , its pure J Bond story and both Governments hide it for years

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#15169065
Juin wrote:"delenda est Muscovy"? Straight from Cato's playbook. Imperialism 101. Except today's Cato is not garbed in a Roman toga. But the methods remain the same. "Moscow must be destroyed", repeats incessantly to who will listen, the Kievan Comic cum President Volodymyr. A poor Cato imitation. An Impostor! An Impostore! A Fake! A papier mâché Trojan Horse!

why do you guys attack Bulgaria and Czech states? how many Bulgarians did you kill ? 30 , 40? its an act of war do you understand it ?

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-bulgaria ... 17945.html

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#15169068
noemon wrote:Because Turkey is attacking a fellow NATO member, coveting its national territory and is threatening, occupying and extending that occupation to EU member Cyprus.

And? This has been going on since at least 1974. Why would America intervene now, when it is simultaneously ramping up the tension in Ukraine?

noemon wrote:I find your pro-Russian and pro-Turkish apologies as more than puzzling, you want to justify the suffering of the Ukrainians and the Cypriots and the Georgians and simply sweep them under the rug as if there is nothing to see there. :roll:

The fact you think my last post was remotely "pro-Turkish" points to a complete misunderstanding of what I said. I despise Erdogan. I was simply explaining to you why America will not put Iran-style sanctions on Turkey.

noemon wrote:You do not want to see sanctions against Russia or Turkey for their aggression and open war activities, it's quite astonishing.

I don't want to see a war with Russia, because I see no point in it. I also don't want to see British, American and French kids being sent to die in parts of Ukraine they've never heard of, to satisfy liberal interventionists' vanity.

Wars are incredibly easy to start. They are very difficult to end. I would have thought the last 20 years might have demonstrated that quite clearly.

noemon wrote:You are basically saying that no action should be taken whatsoever, being born near these aggressors is just something that the unfortunate will have to come to terms with and that not even basic spiritual support in a forum should be offered to the people suffering of foreign occupation and aggression.

"Basic spiritual support in a forum" is completely meaningless.
Last edited by Heisenberg on 25 Apr 2021 15:32, edited 1 time in total.
#15169071
Heisenberg  wrote:I don't want to see a war with Russia, because I see no point in it. I also don't want to see British, American and French kids being sent to die in parts of Ukraine they've never heard of, to satisfy liberal interventionists' vanity.

Wars are incredibly easy to start. They are very difficult to end. I would have thought the last 20 years might have demonstrated that quite clearly.


Nobody wants to start a war with Russia. Levying sanctions and sending foreign aid as well as military assistance (NOT NATO troops or American troops but instead, weapons and arms as the military assistance) to the Ukrainians is not the same thing as starting a war with Russia. Providing foreign aid and assistance to Ukraine could help to deter Russia though it's not a guarantee.

It could certainly raise the cost of any future Russian intervention or invasion of Ukraine though, which could in turn discourage such Russian behavior in the future. In addition, it could help Ukraine become more democratic and join the rest of Europe.

On the same token, we'll have to be on guard from future Russian aggression given Putin is in power. If somebody else gets into power and it turns out they are not a threat, then we should extend a hand of friendship to the Russians. But you want to make sure they are not another Putin or somebody worse seeking to be aggressive against neighbors or other democratic countries in the world.
Last edited by Politics_Observer on 25 Apr 2021 15:38, edited 5 times in total.
#15169073
Heisenberg wrote:And? This has been going on since at least 1974. Why would America intervene now, when it is simultaneously ramping up the tension in Ukraine?


The fact you think my last post was remotely "pro-Turkish" points to a complete misunderstanding of what I said. I despise Turkey and Erdogan. I was simply explaining to you why America will not put Iran-style sanctions on Turkey.


I don't want to see a war with Russia, because I see no point in it. I also don't want to see British, American and French kids being sent to die in parts of Ukraine they've never heard of, to satisfy liberal interventionists' vanity.

Wars are incredibly easy to start. They are very difficult to end. I would have thought the last 20 years might have demonstrated that quite clearly.


"Basic spiritual support in a forum" is completely meaningless.


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#15169075
Heisenberg wrote:And? This has been going on since at least 1974. Why would America intervene now, when it is simultaneously ramping up the tension in Ukraine?


Turkey has upped the ante of its aggression and imperialism since 1974 in very obvious ways. You claimed that Turkey "is in good standing" in the NATO alliance. Turkey is not in good standing in any way, shape or form. She is attacking a fellow NATO-member, warmongering against another EU member and breaking the statutes of the alliance by purchasing Russian weapon-systems.

Turkey is very openly threatening the security of me, the EU and of NATO, yet no substantial action has been taken and according to you and others like you, that is apparently "correct", so you are basically saying that criminal states threatening the security of others should not be punished in any way, not with sanctions, and not even with a basic denounciation.

Is there even a threshold somewhere?

Heisenberg wrote:]The fact you think my last post was remotely "pro-Turkish" points to a complete misunderstanding of what I said. I despise Turkey and Erdogan. I was simply explaining to you why America will not put Iran-style sanctions on Turkey.


I do not pay any attention to what people claim for themselves, but what they do. You sitting here claiming that Turkey is in "good standing". That is blatant Turkish apologies regardless of what you say. You are also attempting the same line of defense for Russia. Obscurantism, nihilism mixed with "anti-western imperialism".

You were not explaining anything, you simply wish and hope that the US and the west should not put Iran-style sanctions on Turkey and Russia. I hope and argue that they should, you argue that they should not.

Heisenberg wrote:The fact is that you do not want anyone to criticize these countries for their occupation, war and imperialism.

I don't want to see a war with Russia, because I see no point in it. I also don't want to see British, American and French kids being sent to die in parts of Ukraine they've never heard of, to satisfy liberal interventionists' vanity.

Wars are incredibly easy to start. They are very difficult to end. I would have thought the last 20 years might have demonstrated that quite clearly.

"Basic spiritual support in a forum" is completely meaningless.


Basic spiritual support in a forum is the total extent of both of our contributions in here and it is basic empathy for the chosen protagonist, you have no issue with Ukrainian children currently dying, the Armenian and Georgian kids that died very recently and the Cypriot kids that died in a war organised and plotted from start to finish by the British and the Turks.

Instead you have "empathy" for an imagined abstraction that is nothing more than a straw-man. Noone is asking you to go fight for the Ukraine or for Cyprus(even if a case of national moral duty can actually be made for the latter since Britain is a guarantor for its security, had several treaty obligations to hand over the island to Greece for both World Wars and it was also Britain that factually plotted with Turkey for the island's partition) but merely to denounce Russian and Turkish aggression & warmongering. That is the extent of what we can do anyway. You instead take an issue with those denouncing them and your one & only argument being a virtue signal. I be not a liberal interventionist so I support Russian and Turkish imperialism and aggression. :roll:

You have no issue seeing all these real children dying and are here to tell me and the spectators that no support whatsoever should be offered to these countries suffering of occupation and aggression. Instead, you say, all our "understanding" should be directed to the demands of Russia and Turkey who are actually committing the crimes at our expense.
Last edited by noemon on 25 Apr 2021 18:04, edited 1 time in total.
#15169077
Heisenberg wrote:Uh huh. And why does the Anglo-American alliance welcome them with open arms? They're under no obligation to do so. If they had no strategic aims against Russia, it would be much smarter from a realpolitik standpoint to refuse their applications. In this fantasy world where NATO is purely defensive and peaceful, a sworn commitment to come to the full military defence of some tinpot country like Estonia or Latvia is a huge liability with almost no upside.


What a nonsensical argument. Those "tinpot countries" are part of the EU. Solidarity towards them is not just a matter of military strategy. The US doesn't not defend Alaska just because it's right next to Russia. Besides, admitting Eastern European countries moves the frontier from Germany, Italy, Austria to the East.
#15169078
@Heisenberg

Russia has targeted other countries around the world which DO NOT border them. Such as the United States for example and other more democratic countries. Putin views democratic governments as a threat and if you value living under a democratic government you might want to consider how Putin's past actions have sought to attack other democratic governments which DO NOT border Russia. Given this is the case, it's probably a wise investment to send aid to the Ukrainians given they were attacked simply for wanting to choose their own destiny and not because of any supposed threat they posed to Russia. Russia did pose a threat to Ukraine though as their puppet in Ukraine was taken out of power by a popular uprising against him. The whole "Russian separatists" thing that happened afterwards was merely just orchestrated by Russian intelligence services and wasn't some kind of popular uprising against a new Ukrainian government that was formed after Putin's man had to flee Ukraine.
#15169080
litwin wrote:why do you guys attack Bulgaria and Czech states? how many Bulgarians did you kill ? 30 , 40? its an act of war do you understand it ?
]




Maybe they are German collaborators? It is not about the midgets. Bulgars, Slovaks, Czechs, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Georgians are all pawns. Nothing more. Poaching in Russland's near abroad is no more a cost free enterprise. Uncle Sam, John Bull and Bismarck will have to pay a price for each additional pawn they pick up. That, it will seem, is the message from Putin. How long is Putin supposed to put up with poachers?
#15169082
Rugoz wrote:What a nonsensical argument. Those "tinpot countries" are part of the EU.

American discussion of NATO enlargement began under Bush Sr, before the EU even existed.

Rugoz wrote:Solidarity towards them is not just a matter of military strategy.

"Solidarity" :lol:

Rugoz wrote:The US doesn't not defend Alaska just because it's right next to Russia.

Alaska is American territory. Lithuania is not.

Rugoz wrote:Besides, admitting Eastern European countries moves the frontier from Germany, Italy, Austria to the East.

Now you're getting it! Of course, after the collapse of the USSR and the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact, there quite literally was no "frontier" between NATO and Russia at all in continental Europe.

Politics_Observer wrote:Russia has targeted other countries around the world which DO NOT border them.

Yeah, NATO members would never do such a thing. Remind me - which NATO country borders Afghanistan?
Last edited by Heisenberg on 25 Apr 2021 16:05, edited 1 time in total.
#15169084
Juin wrote:Maybe they are German collaborators? It is not about the midgets. Bulgars, Slovaks, Czechs, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Georgians are all pawns. Nothing more. Poaching in Russland's near abroad is no more a cost free enterprise. Uncle Sam, John Bull and Bismarck will have to pay a price for each additional pawn they pick up. That, it will seem, is the message from Putin. How long is Putin supposed to put up with poachers?


This can be said for what Israel is for the west in the Middle-east, in more real ways that it can be said for the Baltic countries. A pawn that has cost the US and the West quite a bit of money poaching on Arab-land as a cost-free enterprise. These countries however are not poaching anything, they just want to live in peace and are not coveting any expansionism, they are suffering from it.

The reality however is different for Israel, isn't it.

As is for these countries that you are hubristically showing no respect for their national security.
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