[wat0n]

I'm not sure if you've ever registered to vote, but to register you have to prove your identity and your residence. So proving identity have never been a problem when it comes to voting because by the time you vote... with the form provided to you by mail... you have already proven your identity.

Which makes your argument spurious on it's face.

Voter ID is not about proving identity, it's about adding another way to roadblock voters. It's not a Democracy's job to make voting harder. But in our corrupt system it is the job of the political parties to make sure that the "wrong" people don't vote.

Both sides do this in a variety of ways. Gerrymandering, primary rigging, voter poll purges... and simply refusing votes.

Voter ID is another tool in the tool set used to deny people their lawful vote.

It's only purpose is to be able to turn people away.

The idea of proving identity when you show up to vote is to prove you are who you claim you are when you show up to vote, just as it's done across the West. You are the one who's adopting the abnormal position here, also, in several countries when you register to vote you will also be mailed your voting ID. The same could be done in the US as well.

[PataOneil]

Except to vote you have to register to vote... which is when you prove your identity. So when you walk into vote or vote by mail, you do so with a form that was provided to you in your name, after you've already proven your residence and identity. Did you not read my first post?

[wat0n]

Except to vote you have to register to vote... which is when you prove your identity. So when you walk into vote or vote by mail, you do so with a form that was provided to you in your name, after you've already proven your residence and identity. Did you not read my first post?

What happens if you are not voting by mail?

[PataOneil]

You still have to have a voter registration and they send you the ballot you are going to use. A ballot that is mailed to you after you have already proven your identity.

[PataOneil]

Oh and if you are using voting machines... you still have to present proof of registration. Which you got in the mail, after you have proven your residence and identity.

Voter ID is not just unnecessary, it's a way to deny people the vote. That's it's only purpose.

[wat0n]

You still have to have a voter registration and they send you the ballot you are going to use. A ballot that is mailed to you after you have already proven your identity.

So if there is no ID, you could in theory give your documents to someone else and have that person vote for you? I think that's the issue with not requesting it. The document they send you upon registering could have your photo, too...

[PataOneil]

Yup you sure could if you wanted to risk a felony charge of voter fraud. Not much of that happening. But if you know of a ring of people who are stealing voter registration cards and then using them... that would be a great reason to change the system.

Until then, if it ain't broke... don't fix it.

But Voter ID isn't about fixing anything... it's about breaking the system and denying certain groups their chance to vote. It simply gives those administering the local system the chance to pick and choose who votes. And that IS something that we have historical precedence for.

[wat0n]

Yup you sure could if you wanted to risk a felony charge of voter fraud. Not much of that happening. But if you know of a ring of people who are stealing voter registration cards and then using them... that would be a great reason to change the system.

Until then, if it ain't broke... don't fix it.

But Voter ID isn't about fixing anything... it's about breaking the system and denying certain groups their chance to vote. It simply gives those administering the local system the chance to pick and choose who votes. And that IS something that we have historical precedence for.

I think that's precisely the issue: The possibility that some rings could arise trying to do that, despite it being a felony - and then the usual suspects will show up and start challenging the legitimacy of electoral results.

I agree that it cannot be left to the discretion of local officials either - I think the response should ideally come at the Federal level or (alternatively) the states themselves through legislation.

At last, you're using a very particular definition of "deciding who votes or not" since 1) remedies could be used to deal with people who have trouble getting IDs, including just mailing it upon registration or allowing the use of state and federal IDs (with the feds sending a free ID card to everyone) and 2) ultimately, the voter is responsible for producing the documentation, even when voting by mail as you suggested.

Unfortunately, the debate right now is focused more on "voting IDs are racist" vs "voting IDs help with electoral integrity" when it should be more about "how do we make sure everyone has an ID"?

[PataOneil]

Except there is no evidence that there are any rings of thieves doing that.

Why are you trying to fix a problem that doesn't actually exist?

[wat0n]

Except there is no evidence that there are any rings of thieves doing that.

Why are you trying to fix a problem that doesn't actually exist?

Because the mere questioning of election results is by itself a serious problem. It's why Trump's game of making fraud claims was so damaging, even more so after even the courts rejected them. And we know what happened after that.

Or you could consider what happened during the 1876 election and its aftermath.

One should not want to open the door to that again, in the slightest.

[PataOneil]

Well then this questioning of election results is rather surprisingly focused. Our elections are really crappy, because of gerrymandering, primary shenanigans, legalized bribery, voter roll purges...

But sure focus on the problem that no one can even prove exists.

[wat0n]

Well then this questioning of election results is rather surprisingly focused. Our elections are really crappy, because of gerrymandering, primary shenanigans, legalized bribery, voter roll purges...

But sure focus on the problem that no one can even prove exists.

Those are also questionable but they are not necessarily fraud. Gerrymandering for instance is so widespread that it's regulated by the law and courts, and it's basically part of the rules of the game at this point.

But the issue with proving identity is a different game as you cannot vote in someone else's name.

[PataOneil]

Saying that gerrymandering is regulated by courts is deceiving... There are certain isolated cases where the courts step in; however, it's the legislature's who set up districts.

You've also simply ignored all the other examples of proven problems with our voting system.

To focus on a problem that isn't even a problem.

Now why would you do that?

[wat0n]

Saying that gerrymandering is regulated by courts is deceiving... There are certain isolated cases where the courts step in; however, it's the legislature's who set up districts.

Right, my point is that there are also laws regulating how gerrymandering is to be done. Starting by the Constitution itself.

If you wanted to get rid of it, then you'd need to change the Constitution and mandate all states will use a D'Hont system with no districts.

You've also simply ignored all the other examples of proven problems with our voting system.

To focus on a problem that isn't even a problem.

Now why would you do that?

No, those other problems are also similar in the sense that they are regulated by the law. Again, voter and election fraud in general are a different game, one that needs to be dealt with even if you change the rest.

[PataOneil]

Would you mind quoting the part of the Constitution that mentions how gerrymandering is to be done?



Seems to me that you are kind of just making stuff up at this point. Primary stuff is not legislated by law... it's regulated by party.

And you simply can't get by the fact that there is no proven problem with the current way of registering voters... nor any significant voter fraud that occurs because of people stealing identities.

I really am interested in why you think it's such a problem. When you can't actually point to a real problem. Instead you seem less concerned about the real problems... in fact justify them.

So it makes it hard to believe that you are really interested in election integrity.

[wat0n]

Would you mind quoting the part of the Constitution that mentions how gerrymandering is to be done?



Seems to me that you are kind of just making stuff up at this point. Primary stuff is not legislated by law... it's regulated by party.

You could check some case law, e.g.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomillion_v._Lightfoot
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_v._Carr
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wesberry_v._Sanders
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v._Sims
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunt_v._Cromartie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easley_v._Cromartie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis_v._Bandemer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vieth_v._Jubelirer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gill_v._Whitford
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benisek_v._Lamone
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornburg_v._Gingles

Etc...

And you simply can't get by the fact that there is no proven problem with the current way of registering voters... nor any significant voter fraud that occurs because of people stealing identities.

I really am interested in why you think it's such a problem. When you can't actually point to a real problem. Instead you seem less concerned about the real problems... in fact justify them.

So it makes it hard to believe that you are really interested in election integrity.

It's a problem in the same sense that refusing to wear a seatbelt while driving is a problem.

[PataOneil]

Not at all. It's a proven fact that seat belts save lives. That is why insurance companies lobbied to get lawmakers to pass that law.

There is no significant proof that voters are stealing identities to vote.

So why are you so worried about it?

[wat0n]

Not at all. It's a proven fact that seat belts save lives. That is why insurance companies lobbied to get lawmakers to pass that law.

There is no significant proof that voters are stealing identities to vote.

So why are you so worried about it?

Why do other countries have voter ID laws?

[PataOneil]

Why do other countries have gun bans?



Are you going to explain to me why you are so fearful about this fictitious problem?

[wat0n]

Why do other countries have gun bans?



Are you going to explain to me why you are so fearful about this fictitious problem?

Actually, guns are another possible example you can use if you want. Although other countries don't usually ban them altogether, they are just harsher and more effective in regulating them than the US is (and it's not like the US has no gun laws anyway).