BREAKING "Putin signed a law that allows only wine produced in Muscovy to be called "champagne" - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15179659
Juin wrote:And I suppose Ukraine is not right up there with Russia when it comes to heavy alcohol consumption? One would be easily forgiven if one is let with the impression from your posts that Ukrainians must be Saints when it comes to alcohol abuse. A quick Google on that subject dispels that impression. I am sure if the Donbass problem was to be settled with in a drinking duel, Ukrainian drinkers would hold their own against their Russian counterparts. Your propaganda is tiresome. If you had been born during the Soviet days you would have been propaganda minister. You demonize with great skill.


Litwin only drinks root beer.

Seriously, I am the one who brought it up. I also never claimed Ukrainians don't drink.

Litwin is well known for his biases. He is as open about them as it gets. I think until Russia gets out of Ukraine, you will find a lot of Litwins out there. You'd be surprised. They have deep emotional connections to the holodomor and continuous Russian persecution of that country.

I had part of my family (Jews) shot and thrown in ditches outside Kiev by pro Nazis. I would have a reason to hate certain Ukrainians. I do not. Why? Because their holodomor is studied by we Jews just as Litwin and Ukrainians acknowledge the holocaust-for the same reasons. We do not compare them. We share our common despair. When Ukraine finally liberated itself from Russia it openly made overtures to Israel because it saw Jews in Israel no differently than it sees a nation for Ukrainians. We both get that. Neither of us claim our people are perfect.

Do not read him too literally. He demands equality nothing else for his people.

Your criticism and point is respected by me.
#15179663
@PhantomStranger

PhantomStranger wrote:When Ukraine finally liberated itself from Russia


I would have to disagree to a certain point. The expensive Cold War competition and arms race with the U.S. basically bankrupted the economically inefficient Soviet system. It forced Gorbachev into making political reforms for more openness and more economic reforms so that the Soviet economy could hopefully regain some steam and be able to continue to spend on their military to compete with the U.S. Those economic and political reforms by Gorbachev were put in place because Gorbachev was forced to do it so he could make the Soviet Union economically stronger so it could continue to compete with the U.S.

However, those political reforms set in motion the destruction of the USSR and thus brought about the independence of those Soviet republics. I have no doubt there were protests and such in the Soviet republics, but at the end of the day, without that massive military and economic pressure from the U.S. the Soviet Union might have very well survived much longer or might be in existence today for all we know. A lot of people in the former Soviet republics don't like to acknowledge the U.S. role in setting in motion the destruction of the USSR but it's true whether they like or are willing to acknowledge that truth or not.
#15179664
Patrickov wrote:In some sense, Stalin was immensely fortunate to have Adolf Hitler sitting next to him.

It probably didn't seem like that to him in July 1941....

No such maniacal (mutual) enemy for Putin to exploit.
1. Trump was an idiotic leader elected in a country too democratic to go anywhere near Nazi Germany
2. While Xi Jinping does rule like Nazi Germany he's apparently a friend or even subordinate of Putin

Xi Jinping is unlikely to invade Russia any time soon, if ever. And Hitler wasn't a problem because of the way he ruled over Nazi Germany - neither the West nor Stalin gave a rat's ass about the way he treated German socialists or German Jews. It was when he started invading his neighbours that they sat up and took notice....
#15179666
Potemkin wrote:Xi Jinping is unlikely to invade Russia any time soon, if ever. And Hitler wasn't a problem because of the way he ruled over Nazi Germany - neither the West nor Stalin gave a rat's ass about the way he treated German socialists or German Jews. It was when he started invading his neighbours that they sat up and took notice....


Xi would probably start with Taiwan, and then Vietnam and / or the Philippines.
(South Korea has effectively surrendered despite their people's hatred of China)
The first "big guy" he would flex his muscle against would probably be India, but as we see the conflict is more or less ineffectual.

I see Xi as an effective puppet of Putin, rather than anything else.
I only mentioned him because of him ruling like the Nazis, but as you said, he would NEVER invade Russia unless he's insanely suicidal.
No Chinese regime had launched an offensive against Russia. EVER.
(Note 1: The Qing "recovery" of Xinjiang in the 1880s from Russian Empire was effectively a defense. Same goes for the 1969 Commie-Commie conflict)
(Note 2: In China, 80% of the times it's the north conquering the south. Russia is the northern guy here)

If Putin sees Xi as disposable he would happily join Biden and other good leaders when they all gang up in Beijing, as what happened in 1900.
#15179678
PhantomStranger wrote:Litwin only drinks root beer.

Seriously, I am the one who brought it up. I also never claimed Ukrainians don't drink.

Litwin is well known for his biases. He is as open about them as it gets. I think until Russia gets out of Ukraine, you will find a lot of Litwins out there. You'd be surprised. They have deep emotional connections to the holodomor and continuous Russian persecution of that country.

I had part of my family (Jews) shot and thrown in ditches outside Kiev by pro Nazis. I would have a reason to hate certain Ukrainians. I do not. Why? Because their holodomor is studied by we Jews just as Litwin and Ukrainians acknowledge the holocaust-for the same reasons. We do not compare them. We share our common despair. When Ukraine finally liberated itself from Russia it openly made overtures to Israel because it saw Jews in Israel no differently than it sees a nation for Ukrainians. We both get that. Neither of us claim our people are perfect.

Do not read him too literally. He demands equality nothing else for his people.

Your criticism and point is respected by me.





I am not so sure it is litwin's advocacy for Ukrainian revendications that I find distasteful. For starters, he is not the only advocate for Ukrainian revendications in the forum; there is also @Politics_Observer. He makes his arguments without resort to caricatures, half truths and misrepresentations of Eastern European history. One can appreciate a clear and rational presentation of the Ukrainian cause even if one might disagree with them.

There is much distaste in many circles on news and opinion pieces emanating from Moscow. As a matter of fact I usually will not cite a Moscow source for in an argument. Not because they may not be making an excellent case. Just because it is never clear if it is a behind the scenes state controlled dissemination. I usually prefer same opinions if it was from sources in the west.

But is the distaste for Kremlin crafted dissemination just a case of Russophobia, or is it more an objection in general to propaganda? Are we to turn a blind eye to litwin if his crusade is as dark a fabrication as any Kremlin operator can dream up?

If two individuals are fighting to the death in a public square, and a bystander keeps yelling that on of the brawlers is an alcoholic and has been constantly drinking, would you not forgive the others if they drew the inference that the other was not an alcoholic? On Googling up the matter, the researched opinion is that alcohol abuse is a legacy of the Soviet Union, and that it is a problem with many of the ex Soviet states.

On the Donbass and Crimea.

Can you explain to me why ethnic Ukrainian Russians are not entitled to the same arguments as ethnic Ukrainian Ukrainians? Ethnic Ukrainians of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic rejected being part of any political entity dominated by Russians and opted for Independence. Fine. So, why would you expect ethnic Russians not to also reject participation in a political entity dominated by ethnic Ukrainians?
#15179682
Patrickov wrote:In some sense, Stalin was immensely fortunate to have Adolf Hitler sitting next to him. No such maniacal (mutual) enemy for Putin to exploit.




Did Stalin, evil as he was, have a choice? History begins to look very different when examined through Russian binoculars. There was great angst at the Molotov Ribbentrop deal; but should it have come as a surprise? What conclusions was the Kremlin to draw from the Czech crisis? If as shinning an example of western aspirants in the Balkans as Czechoslovakia could be thrown to the Nazi wolves by the west, did it make sense for the Kremlin to entertain the fantasy that the Soviet Union, which was hated where Czechoslovakia was loved, could rely on the west to come to her aid against a Nazi attack?
#15179683
I have always preferred the term "Sparkling Wine" over champagne anyway given the name Champagne gives justification for a 50%+ levy on the price of Sparkling Wine just because of the region and country it was produced. Although I don't really see this being an issue outside Russia anyway given they could not export any of it to Europe given they have laws on doing this and no other nation will buy it either due to precieved lack of quality as well.
#15179686
@Juin

Ukraine just wants to be independent. You can't blame them for that. I would want my country to have independence too. They don't want to return to foreign domination under anybody. They have a right to live in a free, open and happy society with the rule of law that is free from foreign domination. Heck, I am sure even Russians would agree with such principles and ideals for any nation. Even though major powers have been guilty in the past of violating the freedom and independence of others because they are stronger.

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