[Politics_Observer]

@Rancid

Personally, I don't believe capitalism will ever collapse. It certainly needs to be regulated with rules and without that, it is destructive. But, I don't think it will ever 100% truly collapse. In regards to the Taliban, the Taliban are bad people. They are not good people at all (and I know you know that of course). One should also not view the Talban as the "true face of Islam" or the "only face of Islam" because that's simply not true.

Pakistan was simply double dealing us, taking our aid money all while providing safe haven to the Taliban and Bin Laden (and I am sure other members of Al-queda). Pakistan was also providing weapons and arms to the Taliban. So, you can win all the battles you want in Afghanistan, but unless you are willing to invade Pakistan and occupy Pakistan and thus eliminate Pakistan as a safe haven and source of supply for weapons, it's not going to do any good to win all the battles in Afghanistan.

Moreover, Bush's decision to invade Iraq was a strategic error. First and foremost, because we already had a war to fight in Afghanistan. Second, even if we weren't in Afghanistan we should have never invaded Iraq anyway. Invading Iraq was an extremely arrogant and unwise thing to do. I have no idea what Bush and his administration were thinking or what crack pipe they were smoking by deciding to invade Iraq but it was a big mistake.

General Petraeus did an outstanding job of commanding U.S. forces in the Iraq War and without his leadership, it would have been far worse. To me, I regard Petraeus as an American hero. Still, that diverted valuable attention and resources away from the fight that really mattered which was Afghanistan by invading Iraq.

I felt that the Bush administration wasn't doing it's job by not prioritizing protecting the American people when it went adventuring off into left field somewhere in the clouds and starting an un-necessary fight in Iraq. And I think we paid a price in Afghanistan for going into Iraq. That all being said though, we won our battles and fought well in Afghanistan. Winning battles doesn't necessarily win wars.

The Afghan people didn't support the government (one reason might have been because we got distracted in Iraq) and the Taliban has safe haven in Pakistan while getting weapons and arms from Pakistan (and we weren't going to invade and occupy Pakistan to deny that safe haven) then winning all the battles in the world doesn't do any good. That doesn't mean all the Afghan people liked the Taliban though. A lot of them don't. But the Taliban was able to provide some stability and law whereas the Afghan government wasn't able to do so because of corruption. Make sense?

At the end of the day, the military just does what it's told and the civilian politicians decide policy. Sometimes they make bad policy decision that might have costed us the war in Afghanistan. But that's the way it goes sometimes.

[Unthinking Majority]

The major problem here is that this was the inevitable outcome and anyone with any knowledge of the country knew it, and yet they wasted 2 decades trying to nation-build/democratize a state filled with Islamist fundamentalists. So many lives lost or ruined trying to take and hold cities that are now lost.

Why didn't Obama/Biden do this 10 years ago? The servicemen and women who served and their families should be pretty PO'd. Everyone should be.

[Politics_Observer]

@Unthinking Majority

War is a risky business and victory is never guaranteed. Being pissed off isn't going to do any good. You can't win them all. All you can do is simply learn from the mistakes and move on. You hope the politicians will learn, but given it's rare that politicians pay the price this doesn't always happen. When you sign up being a soldier it's a risky business and you have to accept the risks and any consequences that come from it. That's part of being a soldier. If I didn't make it back the most important thing that mattered to me was that the families of the victims of the 9/11 terrorist attack know that I died for them trying to make things right for them. Nobody can win them all and failure and losing is part of life. But that doesn't mean you feel sorry for yourself. You just learn from it and drive on and keep fighting the good fight. That's all you can do. We'll be OK.

[Rancid]

The major problem here is that this was the inevitable outcome and anyone with any knowledge of the country knew it, and yet they wasted 2 decades trying to nation-build/democratize a state filled with Islamist fundamentalists. So many lives lost or ruined trying to take and hold cities that are now lost.

Why didn't Obama/Biden do this 10 years ago? The servicemen and women who served and their families should be pretty PO'd. Everyone should be.

I already posted exactly why it didn't happen 10 years ago. It was a political hot potato that no one wanted to deal with. It took geriatric presidents at the twilight of their careers to finally pull the cord on it. Mainly because, they're so old, they don't have much of a career left in their futures. Burning their career on this wouldn't matter all that much.

So what we should have done 10 years ago, is elect a REALLY old president.

That, and there was probably still more money to be made off the dead bodies on all sides of this.

[Patrickov]

Pakistan was simply double dealing us, taking our aid money all while providing safe haven to the Taliban and Bin Laden (and I am sure other members of Al-queda). Pakistan was also providing weapons and arms to the Taliban. So, you can win all the battles you want in Afghanistan, but unless you are willing to invade Pakistan and occupy Pakistan and thus eliminate Pakistan as a safe haven and source of supply for weapons, it's not going to do any good to win all the battles in Afghanistan.

Of course Pakistan is double-crossing the US. It's the biggest ally of China.

Good thing that some people there are starting to come to their senses and act against Chinese presence -- if the recent bombing events are indeed for this purpose.

[Patrickov]

I already posted exactly why it didn't happen 10 years ago. It was a political hot potato that no one wanted to deal with. It took geriatric presidents at the twilight of their careers to finally pull the cord on it. Mainly because, they're so old, they don't have much of a career left in their futures. Burning their career on this wouldn't matter all that much.

So what we should have done 10 years ago, is elect a REALLY old president.

That, and there was probably still more money to be made off the dead bodies on all sides of this.

I somehow suspect 10 years ago is the point of reference simply because bin Laden was killed back then.

And by electing "a really old president", the first to jump into my mind was Trump, although Hillary or Sanders might still qualify had one of them won.

And if the plug has to be pulled one has to wonder whether it is the manner of the unplugging which should be criticized, and if yes, should we blame Trump for this mess-up (as the deal was made before he's overthrown IIRC)?

[Politics_Observer]

@Patrickov

Pakistan is an ally of nobody. They will double cross the Chinese too.

[Patrickov]

@Patrickov

Pakistan is an ally of nobody. They will double cross the Chinese too.

Both of them are treacherous assholes (China did the samd to both USSR and USA) so they certainly get along.

More importantly, though, China is probably the reason that Pakistan still exists. Pakistan would probably be trampled by India had it not for China who takes India as a rival or even enemy to their ambition of hegemony.

[AFAIK]

If I didn't make it back the most important thing that mattered to me was that the families of the victims of the 9/11 terrorist attack know that I died for them trying to make things right for them.

Were you able to pursue that goal? Whenever I meet someone with this attitude I tell them to be a mercenary. The military could deploy you anywhere in the world. As a mercenary you can insist on going to Afghanistan.

[Rancid]

I somehow suspect 10 years ago is the point of reference simply because bin Laden was killed back then.

And by electing "a really old president", the first to jump into my mind was Trump, although Hillary or Sanders might still qualify had one of them won.

And if the plug has to be pulled one has to wonder whether it is the manner of the unplugging which should be criticized, and if yes, should we blame Trump for this mess-up (as the deal was made before he's overthrown IIRC)?

Yea, 10 years ago was a reference to getting Bin Laden. I don't believe the plug could have been pulled any different by anyone on the planet. You could say, the Taliban were always destined to rule the country.

It was certainly a waste of money to bother building schools/roads/hospitals though. Then again, they had find a ways to spend money on contracts.

@Patrickov

Pakistan is an ally of nobody. They will double cross the Chinese too.

They are just play the game. Really. Look at it this way, why should Pakistan ever try to actually stop militant groups within their borders? If they did, they would stop getting money from the US! It's why giving Pakistan aid in return to help fight terrorists or whatever is just fucking stupid. We have no one to blame but ourselves on that one.

[Politics_Observer]

@AFAIK

3,000 Americans were killed in a terrorist attack on 9/11 and the Taliban was providing safe haven to those terrorists responsible. Somebody had to go and perform the duty of national defense. I am an American so it was my duty and my fight. Its my country. Thats just the nature of things.

[AFAIK]

Were you given assurances that you'd be sent to Afghanistan? It would suck if you got deployed to Okinawa instead.

[annatar1914]

I'm not. What I'm saying is, what props the western capitalism, is that as rigged/flawed/corrupt as western capitalism is, there are still no other better places to put money. This fact alone keeps western capitalism from falling. Additionally, China/Russia in particular are helping to keep it propped up with their actions (lot's of Russian/Chinese elite and wealthy keep most/alot of their money in the west, which further helps keep it propped.). The uncertainty around how those nations manage policies as well as the specific flavor of corruption you see in those places, makes the west look/feel more stable from an investment and finance perspective, relatively speaking. It's a mix of faith and the relative certainty in the west that keeps it all propped up. You could even argue that the consistency in corruption in the west is well understood and can thus be mitigated against and worked with, versus the inconsistency and uncertainty in the east.

We're talking about a global system here, you can't ignore non-western players when trying to understand the western players. It's all connected. There's push-pull here.

I'm not trying to say the west is better than the east (in this and my previous post anyway). Not at all. Just pointing out the global dynamic that helps keep western economies going.

SO long as the west appears less risky from an investment perspective, the system will not fall. As shaky as it all is, it will not fall so long as that is true.

@Rancid ;

I might mention that I am of the opinion that a good deal of the flight capital siphoned out of the former Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc in the 1990's to this present day has contributed to the survival of Capitalism in the West too as well, that and Chinese investments. I've heard conflicting numbers on that amount, but it just wouldn't do to emphasize that human tragedy when we have our collective hands full with this one.

Or will have our hands full, I should say.

[Politics_Observer]

@AFAIK

I think you miss a larger and more important point. Even if I never went to Afghanistan while serving, it would not make me any less a man or soldier. What matters is what is in your heart.

[AFAIK]

That's a healthy attitude to have

[Drlee]

Just as in the beginning of the second gulf war, we are forgetting the elephant in the corner. Saudi Arabia.

[annatar1914]

Just as in the beginning of the second gulf war, we are forgetting the elephant in the corner. Saudi Arabia.

@Drlee ;

The noose is tightening for them, and their options are both limited and insanely desperate. Look for a replay of that whole ISIS thing, real soon.

[Igor Antunov]

If the Us had pulled all its collaborators and staff out WHEN they had pulled the troops out, then maybe the situation could be salvaged as just another military industrial complex multi-trillion tax payer funding campaign. But this reeks of total incompetence and miscalculation:


In more than one video US troops at the airport have been firing into the air to keep the crowds from swarming the planes.

[Fasces]

The US took the important bits and high tech bits. Everything else, is ok to leave to them. Again, the US doesn't care about them anyway.

It's a bad faith criticism anyway. The equipment lost isn't US equipment - it's ANA equipment. If Biden had ordered its removal, @colliric would be yelling about Biden deliberately handicapping the Afghan Army that Trump bravely built and trained.

[Heisenberg]

I won't lie, watching a 20-year, multi-trillion dollar nation building project fall apart in days has been darkly hilarious, and the fact it was entirely predictable doesn't change that one bit.

On a more serious note, there is a special place in Hell reserved for the deluded politicians and media freaks who pushed for this war, and cheerfully sent other people's children to die or have limbs blown off by IEDs.

Of course, I'm sure they'll learn absolutely nothing from it, will lose absolutely no sleep over what they've done, and will be back on our TV screens in no time being treated as experts on foreign policy and the "international community".

Just as in the beginning of the second gulf war, we are forgetting the elephant in the corner. Saudi Arabia.

I'm afraid no one is forgetting Saudi Arabia. As ever, the western powers are simply covering for them. As long as the oil keeps flowing, this will never change.