[Rugoz]

Ping pong.

SHUT UP RANCID!!

[Rugoz]

In reality, of course, it's neither.

Clearly civil society was flourishing under Stalin, how could we think otherwise?

[Rancid]

[JohnRawls]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YYmS7NL3Po

What do you think about Chinese "reforms"?

[Rancid]

What do you think about Chinese "reforms"?

Dunno, but let's just hope that the CCP is a socially responsible global citizen.

[Fasces]

Cultural Revolution 2.0

The Cultural Revolution was a bottom-up affair, led by supporters of Mao. A more direct analogue would be January 6th and the MAGA movement.

These social reforms are widely ignored and widely unpopular. They are a bunch of old men in Beijing saying a bunch of nonsense and people half-heartedly enforcing it in cities, and always to the letter, but not the spirit, of the law. They do it for a week, submit their reports, and the matter is quietly dropped.

Training schools still exist. Male students still dress femme. Kiddos still play hours of video games. The internet still shows these tv programs with banned actresses (I think my girlfriend's favorite soap opera was unavailable for a day and a half before the streaming service brought it back), and Douyin is still full of LGBT stuff.

It's generic conservative virtue signaling, essentially. People in China roll their eyes and move on - at least in cities, I can't speak as to what happens in conservative rural villages.

In any case, it appears the thread has moved on anyway to generic typical doom and gloom predictions. Economists may have predicted 54 of the last 8 recessions, but they have nothing on the 'China will crash any day now...' crowd.

[JohnRawls]

The Cultural Revolution was a bottom-up affair, led by supporters of Mao. A more direct analogue would be January 6th and the MAGA movement.

These social reforms are widely ignored and widely unpopular. They are a bunch of old men in Beijing saying a bunch of nonsense and people half-heartedly enforcing it in cities, and always to the letter, but not the spirit, of the law. They do it for a week, submit their reports, and the matter is quietly dropped.

Training schools still exist. Male students still dress femme. Kiddos still play hours of video games. The internet still shows these tv programs with banned actresses (I think my girlfriend's favorite soap opera was unavailable for a day and a half before the streaming service brought it back), and Douyin is still full of LGBT stuff.

It's generic conservative virtue signaling, essentially. People in China roll their eyes and move on - at least in cities, I can't speak as to what happens in conservative rural villages.

In any case, it appears the thread has moved on anyway to generic typical doom and gloom predictions. Economists may have predicted 54 of the last 8 recessions, but they have nothing on the 'China will crash any day now...' crowd.

In communist societies a lot of things are claimed to be bottom up but reality is that both in SU and Mao days, almost every sweeping change was a top to bottom enforcement. Cultural Revolution started because MAO and CPP wanted it/started it and enforced it through the HunWeiBins and so on. HunWeiBins were basically created and controlled by Mao and other government officials. They even had their own particular legislature and regulated autonomous status if I remember correctly.

Bottom Up is something like the French revolution or more recently Occupy or anonymous movements.

[Fasces]

The Cultural revolution was a coup led by Mao against the leadership of the CCP and other elites or organizations who were trying to force him out.

You really know close to nothing about Chinese history, @JohnRawls.

[JohnRawls]

The Cultural revolution was a coup led by Mao against the leadership of the CCP and other elites or organizations who were trying to force him out.

You really know close to nothing about Chinese history, @JohnRawls.

Yeah... Lets pretend that Maos and other Mao party followers didn't start it, organise it, support it and guide the HuiWeiBins

[Fasces]

Who's pretending? Did you even read? Even Trump has a few guys on his side in government on January 6th. It was still a bottom-up movement against the CCP, much like the MAGA movement within the GOP.

[JohnRawls]

Who's pretending? Did you even read? Even Trump has a few guys on his side in government on January 6th. It was still a bottom-up movement against the CCP, much like the MAGA movement within the GOP.

Maga movement is not guided directly by Trump but by overall ideology of alt-right ideas to put it simple that Trump is an embodiment of. There are relatively few evidence that anybody from the politicians actually organised them and put them up to it behind closed dores.

In cultural revolution case it was organised by top to bottom directly and then HunWeiBins were unleashed. That is the difference. In a communist society you use the government and party apparatus to crush your enemies.

[Fasces]

[JohnRawls]

:lol:

Do you deny that the movement started after Maos speach?

Do you deny that a decree was issues by CCP central committee on 8th of august 1966?

So do you deny that the government created a 6 month break from school and universities for this?

Do you deny that HunWeiBin were given special trains to exchange "expertise" in different regions of the country?

Do you deny that the minister of interior I think said that "The revolution can't rely only on the law and it is basically shameful and anti-communist to arrest people who beat others to half death"?

[Fasces]

No. Just like the January 6th movement was also instigated by Trump. Yes, Mao had loyalists in key positions in government. So did Trump. Trump also provided funds to the organizations bussing in followers to DC.

The entire government was reorganized in 1966 on the back of it.

The Cultural revolution was a successful MAGA uprising. None of what you said contradicts that fact.

The current Xi program is not the Cultural Revolution 2.0.

[JohnRawls]

No. Just like the January 6th movement was also instigated by Trump. Yes, Mao had loyalists in key positions in government. So did Trump.

The entire government was reorganized in 1966. The Cultural revolution was a successful MAGA uprising. None of what you said contradicts that fact.

The current Xi program is not.

Trump didn't use the government apparatus to organise and so on. Otherwise he would be in jail already along with a lot of republicans.

Mao did.

That is the difference between top to bottom and bottom to top at its core.

[Fasces]

Yes, he did. The Trump campaign directly donated money to facilitate groups moving into DC. Trump deliberately delayed the response by the National Guard.

Trump's chief difference is that US institutions and division of power didn't enable a complete government takeover, and he didn't have enough loyalists in the military structure, unlike Mao. Ultimately, thats basically it.

[JohnRawls]

Yes, he did. The Trump campaign directly donated money to facilitate groups moving into DC. Trump deliberately delayed the response by the National Guard.

Trump's chief difference is that US institutions and division of power didn't enable a complete government takeover, and he didn't have enough loyalists in the military structure, unlike Mao. Ultimately, thats basically it.

First of all Trump campaign is not a government institutions so you are trying to mix things in. I am also not aware of direct campaign donations for this purpose and considering Trump or his staff are not in jail after the "coup" attempt then this means that the evidence doesn't exist. Trump didn't deliberately delay the National Guard because otherwise he would be in jail right now.

But I see you basically came to the acknowledgement that cultural revolution is a top to bottom affair as 99% of situations like this in any communist society. Good to hear. (You just said that the amount of loyalists in different government positions was the reason for the success, what is that if not acknowledgement of top to bottom ?)

[Fasces]

The only thing that this current reform movement has in common with the Cultural revolution is that it's happening in China.

The reason for those loyalists was pressure from the bottom, mate. The Red Guard existed outside the traditional CCP and PLA structure. They were not government entities, they were a Mao-run personality cullt that he and certain supporters wielded against the CCP and government.

[Rugoz]

It was similar to MAGA in the sense that the Red Guards were fanatical Mao followers whom Mao instigated but didn't control directly.

But Mao controlled the PLA and when it went to far (for his purposes) he used the PLA to disband the Red Guards (and sent 10m urban students to the countryside, aka the "lost generation").

Also, Mao used the state apparatus to build a personality cult around him (little red book).

[JohnRawls]

The only thing that this current reform movement has in common with the Cultural revolution is that it's happening in China.

The reason for those loyalists was pressure from the bottom, mate. The Red Guard existed outside the traditional CCP and PLA structure. They were not government entities, they were a Mao-run personality cullt that he and certain supporters wielded against the CCP and government.

And how did Mao achieve all that? With the tools of the state and government. Even his personality cult was basically created top to bottom.