[Rugoz]

They rather serve each other, but the point rather is that they both serve the same people and interests, they're parts of the same system. They're like chess pieces moving seemingly independently of each other, but they're both parts of the same well-organised and controlled team.

I see all kinds of biases, but certainly no "well-organized and controlled team" .

Being totalitarian means having total control, which is possible to achieve by non-authoritarian ways as well, it's just a matter of indoctrination and conditioning. Would you really argue that American society isn't extremely indoctrinated and conditioned?

Given its status in the world, I don't think so. I've never been there though (i.e. the Americans I talk to are not exactly representative).

It'd look like a true democracy, I guess. Many people would argue it must be an anarchy.

You would have to go back to band level societies. Tribal organization already requires cultural indoctrination.

Then the term is being used falsely, which must be intentional.

Do you really care about political scientists, by the way?

I certainly care more about how political scientists use the term than about how Beren uses the term, yes.

[JohnRawls]

In my opinion they don't need to infiltrate them anymore, and I've never argued the American system is the same or works in the same way as the Chinese is or does. Pretty much the opposite, I rather argue both systems are totalitarian in their own different ways.

However, I wonder if you really try to get my point, dear C-3PO (I guess we could refer to Google Translator, which you happened to use in the OP, like that), or you just keep counter-arguing regardless.

You are trying to equate relatively very Democratic US system to a very Authoritarian Chinese system while stating that both are totalitarian. Either you are honestly clueless or actively trying to lie right now.

[Beren]

I certainly care more about how political scientists use the term than about how Beren uses the term, yes.

It must be good for you, especially if those scientists are also indoctrinated or biased, or simply employed or paid.

Political scientists, really? North Korea, boohoo!


It's interesting you take them so seriously, I still have to digest it.

And no, I don't mean to stand up for North Korea in any way. But still, political scientists!

[Beren]

it is seeking to absorb civil society into the state apparatus which is 'totalitarian'.

Seeking total control over society which is totalitarian, in my view at least, and that's what's going on both in the US and China.

[Potemkin]

Seeking total control over society which is totalitarian, in my view at least, and that's what's going on both in the US and China.

"Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state." - Benito Mussolini. That is what is meant when the word "totalitarianism" is used. That, and nothing else. Every other use of the word is incorrect. This means, of course, that most uses of the word "totalitarian" are incorrect, just as most uses of the word "fascist" are incorrect.

[Beren]

"Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state." - Benito Mussolini. That is what is meant when the word "totalitarianism" is used. That, and nothing else. Every other use of the word is incorrect. This means, of course, that most uses of the word "totalitarian" are incorrect, just as most uses of the word "fascist" are incorrect.

I'd say that is Fascist totalitarianism, which means to reach total control over society through the state. However, Fascists only invented the idea of totalitarianism, but they don't exclusively own it.

[Potemkin]

I'd say that is Fascist totalitarianism, which means to reach total control over society through the state. However, Fascists only invented the idea of totalitarianism, but they don't exclusively own it.

Actually, they do exclusively own it. Just because American propagandists during the Cold War accused the Soviet system of being "totalitarian" doesn't mean that it actually was, or even wanted to be.

[Beren]

Actually, they do exclusively own it. Just because American propagandists during the Cold War accused the Soviet system of being "totalitarian" doesn't mean that it actually was, or even wanted to be.

Well, if they exclusively own it, then all totalitarians are Fascists. Red, brown and black ones especially.

[Potemkin]

Well, if they exclusively own it, then all totalitarians are Fascists. Red, brown and black ones especially.

Now you're using the word "fascist" incorrectly as well as the word "totalitarian". Words have meanings, @Beren.

[Beren]

Now you're using the word "fascist" incorrectly as well as the word "totalitarian". Words have meanings, @Beren.

Sure, they do, and by Mussolini's definition and your notion that totalitarians and Fascists are identical your Big Daddy Josip was both.

[Potemkin]

Sure, they have, and by Mussolini's definition and your notion that totalitarians and Fascists are identical your Big Daddy Josip was both.

I repeat: the idea of absolute state power was first developed by Italian Fascists, and concurrently in Germany by the jurist and Nazi academic Carl Schmitt during the Weimar Republic in the 1920s. The founder of Italian Fascism, Benito Mussolini, defined fascism as: "Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state." Schmitt used the term "Totalstaat" in his 1927 work The Concept of the Political, which described the legal basis of an all-powerful state. None of this had anything to do with Communism, or with Marxism, or even with liberal democracy (which you also incorrectly describe as "totalitarian"). It seems that, to you, everything except utopian anarchism is 'totalitarian'. This is an abuse of words.

[Beren]

None of this had anything to do with Communism, or with Marxism

But they had a lot to do with Stalinism, more than with Nazism or Mussolini's Fascism itself. Stalin's Red Fascism was the perfect one actually.

[Potemkin]

But they had a lot to do with Stalinism, more than with Nazism or Mussolini's Fascism itself. Stalin's Red Fascism was the perfect one actually.

Just a while ago you were claiming that modern America is the perfect 'totalitarian' state. So which is it, @Beren?

[Beren]

Just a while ago you were claiming that modern America is the perfect 'totalitarian' state. So which is it, @Beren?

If we operate in your realm of concepts, then Stalinism.

[Potemkin]

If we operate in your realm of concepts, then Stalinism.

And if we operate in your realm of concepts, then it's liberal democracy. Lol.

In reality, of course, it's neither.

[Beren]

And if we operate in your realm of concepts, then it's liberal democracy. Lol.

In reality, of course, it's neither.

In your reality, of course.

[Potemkin]

In your reality, of course.

Is there any other? Lol.

[Beren]

Is there any other? Lol.

No, there isn't, but there's the truth.

[Potemkin]

No, there isn't, but there's the truth.

Indeed there is.

[AFAIK]

Ping pong.

Can you shut up?