Turkey expels US, Canada, France, Germany & more ambassadors - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15195642
The Guardian wrote:A decision by the Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, to declare 10 ambassadors – including those from seven Nato allies – as persona non grata threatens to open the biggest rift with the west during his two decades in power.

Representatives from the US, Canada, Germany, France, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway, and New Zealand issued a joint statement earlier this week demanding the urgent release of Osman Kavala, a prominent businessman and philanthropist who has been held in pre-trial detention for more than four years on charges related to the 2013 Gezi park protests and the 2016 coup attempt.

They were summoned by the foreign ministry and on Saturday the president said he had ordered a declaration of persona non grata for the envoys, which can remove diplomatic status and lead to expulsion.

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Carrying out the expulsions would send Turkey’s relationships with Europe and the US to an all-time low, risk further turmoil for the Turkish lira, and accelerate Ankara’s drift away from the west. Seven of the countries involved are Turkey’s Nato allies.

The ambassadors “cannot dare to come to the Turkish foreign ministry and give orders … I gave the necessary order to our foreign minister and said what must be done: these 10 ambassadors must be declared persona non grata at once,” Erdoğan said in a speech in the north-western city of Eskişehir.

“They will know and understand Turkey. The day they do not know and understand Turkey, they will leave,” he said to cheers from the crowd.

“No instructions have been given to embassies,” a Turkish diplomatic source told Reuters, adding that it was possible a decision may be taken at a cabinet meeting on Monday.

Most of the countries involved have declined to comment until hearing from official Turkish channels, with the US state department saying Washington was aware of the reports and was seeking clarity from the Turkish foreign ministry.

“Our ambassador has not done anything that warrants an expulsion,” Norway’s foreign ministry spokesperson, Trude Maaseide, told Reuters.

The high-profile Kavala case is seen as emblematic of a crackdown on dissent under Erdoğan, and has been closely watched by western diplomats and human rights groups for years.

Kavala and eight other Gezi park activists facing up to 20 years in prison on terror charges were acquitted last year in a surprise ruling, but he was returned to Istanbul’s Silivri prison within hours after a new warrant for his re-arrest as part of an investigation into the failed 2016 coup.

The European court of human rights in 2019 called for his immediate release, saying the democracy campaigner’s extended time in custody was not supported by evidence of an offence and served the ulterior purpose of “reducing him to silence with a chilling effect on civil society”.

The Council of Europe has said it will begin infringement proceedings against Turkey by the end of next month if Kavala is not released. His next hearing is on 26 November, although the 64-year-old said on Friday he would no longer attend as he believed a fair hearing was impossible.

Erdoğan’s dramatic response to the ambassadors’ statement suggests he interpreted it as a personal attack, and reflects his belief that the Gezi park protest movement aimed to violently overthrow his government.

Demonstrations that began over plans to turn the rare green space in central Istanbul into a shopping mall grew into nationwide protests against the then prime minister’s increasingly strong grip on Turkey. The ensuing police crackdown and mass arrests set the scene for the increasingly authoritarian direction in which the government has since travelled.

The president was quoted on Thursday as saying the ambassadors in question would not release “bandits, murderers and terrorists” in their own countries.

The threat to remove the envoys is possibly calibrated for Erdoğan’s base; the show of strength is likely to play well as his Justice and Development party continues to lose popular support over soaring inflation.

De-escalation is also possible given that the diplomatic fallout would come at a particularly awkward time: Erdoğan is expected to meet Joe Biden and other world leaders at both a G20 summit in Rome next week and the UN climate change conference in Glasgow.

The UK, Italy and Spain are among the most prominent countries that did not sign the statement calling for Kavala’s release. It is likely their absence from the statement, which was largely coordinated by the US, would have gone unnoticed but for the persona non grata decision.

The UK has long prided itself on its close relations with Turkey, and was the first country to send a minister to Ankara after the 2016 abortive coup.

There was no immediate statement from the UK condemning the possible expulsions.

The Italian prime minister, Mario Draghi, has already found himself in hot water with Ankara after describing Erdoğan as a dictator, prompting the Turkish president to call him rude.

Spanish banks have more exposure to the plunging Turkish lira than any other European country.
#15199754
Biden won't do it because of the wimp factor but it is time the US expelled all Turkish citizens from the US, booted Turkey from Nato, and sanctioned the dictator.

Turkey is a pariah state. Putin can take care of them.
#15199755
@Drlee

We'd have to think carefully about giving Turkey the boot before acting. The main reason is that they control access to the Black Sea. However, that also depends on Turkey acting in the best interests of NATO too. So, given it's recent behavior of not always acting in NATO's best interest, it might be best to give them the boot because whose to say they would deny Russia access to the Mediterranean Sea from the Black Sea in the event of war between Russia and NATO? We might not have anything to lose by giving Turkey the boot given their behavior which brings into question their reliability as a NATO ally. But then again, they have shot down Russian planes here recently too. So maybe, we might not want to give them the boot. That's a toss up. I would prefer that Turkey act as a reliable ally so we won't have to second guess how they might act in the future in the event of a NATO crisis.
#15199776
Drlee wrote:Why not?


How about having more even more refugees flood into Europe unless the US are happy to take them in for us? Besides, Turkey is an ally due to its geography not because of its government. The US and EU have been happy to keep up with the bullshit until now given that, so why change that habit when clearly war has not worked before?
#15199814
B0ycey wrote:How about having more even more refugees flood into Europe unless the US are happy to take them in for us? Besides, Turkey is an ally due to its geography not because of its government. The US and EU have been happy to keep up with the bullshit until now given that, so why change that habit when clearly war has not worked before?


And the EU, as usual, lacks the backbone to refuse to let Turkey pull this bullshit. Having a hostile government does not an ally make. We have never been at war with Turkey and it would be a hard one to prosecute. It would take several days to unseat that dictator and install the person that the majority of Turks want anyway.

The EU's collection of air forces (10 planes each so they don't have to cancel the air show if one of their planes breaks) is still a match for Turkey. I am not rattling sabres here. Turkey is about to get F35 technology and simply hand it to Russia. The US defense industry wants this and in the US campaign contributions will set any politician to selling their country down the river. But the EU can do better than this. It is time for Erdoğan to go. It really is as simple as that. Ratchet up the pressure and the Turkish military will cave.
#15199824
More free consultancy work from @Drlee, this time in the field of international politics and diplomacy. Your generosity with your time and your encyclopaedic knowledge of medicine, politics, history, indeed every field of human knowledge imaginable, is an inspiration to us all! Keep up the good work, @Drlee! :up:
#15199848
Drlee wrote:And the EU, as usual, lacks the backbone to refuse to let Turkey pull this bullshit. Having a hostile government does not an ally make. We have never been at war with Turkey and it would be a hard one to prosecute. It would take several days to unseat that dictator and install the person that the majority of Turks want anyway.

The EU's collection of air forces (10 planes each so they don't have to cancel the air show if one of their planes breaks) is still a match for Turkey. I am not rattling sabres here. Turkey is about to get F35 technology and simply hand it to Russia. The US defense industry wants this and in the US campaign contributions will set any politician to selling their country down the river. But the EU can do better than this. It is time for Erdoğan to go. It really is as simple as that. Ratchet up the pressure and the Turkish military will cave.


Well I said America shouldn't interfere with Turkey unless you want to take in all the refugees conflict produces and your reply is this is the EUs responsibility? Perhaps the EU is wise enough to not fall for that error given we know the story.

And FYI Turkey is currently holding back hundreds of thousands of refugees. And that isn't including the extra 85 million war would create. We have a few thousand at the border will Belarus causing headaches and a few thousand trying to cross the Mediterranean. And the EU is holding them back. They have a deal with Turkey to barrier it up. What do you think will happen if they declared war? Also Turkey borders Syria, iraq and Iran. They are a pretty useful ally given their geography. Which is why despite their BS, they are still a member of NATO. Saying we should bomb them is not looking at the bigger picture. We need Turkey more than they need us right now. And if that wasn't the case, America no doubt would have already invaded by now given how much of a pain in the ass Erdogan is.
#15200363
Unless that ambassador actually did something bad, declaring an ambassador a person non grata is the act of a clown.

The country will just send a different person. So ... what ? Nothing was archieved.

Frankly I would just make that diplomat make the exact same statement again, just to troll the clown.
#15200368
Unthinking Majority wrote:Let's drop bombs on them.

I'm no fanboi of Turkey but that seems a bit excessive, as far as I'm aware they've never conspired with Al Qaeda in their attacks on America like Saudi and Pakistan have done. There's clear evidence of Saudi officials in the US aiding the 9/11 hijackers. We know the ISI and the Pakistani deep state was totally in bed with the Taliban and Al Qaeda before and after 9/11. When you look at "The Airlift of Evil", you have to give it to those Pakistanis, they've got some balls. I remember the aftermath of 9/11, a lot of Americans were really quite irritated many were, dare I say it, even angry, but neither the Pakistanis nor the Saudis flinched.

Even in Syria, Turkey did support the less extreme factions. It was the Saudis who supported Al Nusra and then ISIS. The Saudis fell out with Al Qaeda when they started bombing Saudi itself. A very stupid move if ever there was one. But a lot of Saudis didn't like Osama Bin Laden for another reason. He wasn't extreme enough. He had an Alawite mother, which meant he was some what squeamish when it came to genociding the Shia.

Turkey is no friend for sure, but in the words of Haymitch Abernathy "katniss remember who the real enemy is"
#15201362
Drlee wrote:Biden won't do it because of the wimp factor but it is time the US expelled all Turkish citizens from the US, booted Turkey from Nato, and sanctioned the dictator.

Turkey is a pariah state. Putin can take care of them.

I agree that it would be much more productive for everyone involved for Turkey to leave NATO and join up with Russia and China, and help create the World Island BRI.

NATO is just a dead weight of a dead colonial empire, which Turkey was never really a full member of anyways.
#15201366
Weird thread.

I just scrolled through the NYT, and there wasn't so much as a mention. Myanamar got a mention, but not Turkey. I did the same with WAPO, same result.

Then I found out why, it's an old story that never amounted to anything.

"Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has backed down from a threat to expel 10 ambassadors – including those from seven Nato allies – over their demands for the release of a prominent pro-democracy activist."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/25/turkey-backs-down-on-threat-to-expel-european-ambassadors
#15201701
late wrote:...it's an old story that never amounted to anything...

Even old stories can amount to something. This one is from October 24 - only a month and a half ago.

And it did amount to something. It created a rift between Turkey and other more orthodox Western colonial nations that might develop into something in the short-to-medium term.

It would make more sense of Turkey (and Germany) to develop close relations with China and Russia instead of continuing to eat crumbs that fall off Goldman Sach's luxurious all-you-can-eat buffet table.

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