[Truth To Power]

@Rich In Quran is written:" Humans without faith are apes without heart."

Yet if we actually observe humans without faith, to determine the truth of the matter, we see that the Qu'ran is objectively incorrect, as usual.

I think in schools should be mandatory religous education for Christians... for Muslims the contrary, we pray the hole day instead to work.

You mean instead of work? One study found that the average amount of time a Saudi employee of the government spends working each day is 23 minutes.

[noemon]

Yet if we actually observe humans without faith, to determine the truth of the matter, we see that the Qu'ran is objectively incorrect, as usual.

I do not think that is the case and I think your sentence makes sense only if you replace human without faith with 'humans that do not confess to a particular creed'.

I submit that all humans profess faith one way or another even those that do not partake to a particular creed or ritual including those that identify as "atheists".

You mean instead of work?

Ofc he does.

One study found that the average amount of time a Saudi employee of the government spends working each day is 23 minutes.

I can attest to that having visited that country over several decades due to my father working there for decades. Saudis are a very particular people.

[Skynet]

I do not think that is the case and I think your sentence makes sense only if you replace human without faith with 'humans that do not confess to a particular creed'.

Lenin is also a mummy...

I can attest to that having visited that country over several decades due to my father working there for decades. Saudis are a very particular people.

Tell me more!

[Truth To Power]

I do not think that is the case and I think your sentence makes sense only if you replace human without faith with 'humans that do not confess to a particular creed'.

I submit that all humans profess faith one way or another even those that do not partake to a particular creed or ritual including those that identify as "atheists".

"No true Scotsman" fallacy.

[Morgan Le Fey]

I don't define humanity by Imperial accomplishments.

Quite the contrary, they are destroying the earth and humanity.

[noemon]

"No true Scotsman" fallacy.

Is your post that I replied to indeed.

You use faith in a generalised manner when in fact your particular usage of religious followers is far more specific.

And from the specific .ie 'religious followers of a creed' you then transpose to make a generalized leap to all 'faith'.

You are attempting to exclude faith from non-denominational credos which quite visibly exist, from the woke to medicine and science. Ergo, your post is a no-true scotsman fallacy.

You are saying:

No true scientist has faith.

No true rationalist has faith.

But you 're wrong.

[Morgan Le Fey]

LOl, you presume hierarchy is the only way we could have gone? Kay' Boo.

[Negotiator]

globohomo

What the hell is that.

establishing a free, clean untainted world.

A world can either be free - or "clean and untained".

A clean and untained world is a prison because you're not free to choose how you want to live. In a free society, different opinion is allowed. In fact, welcomed, because it expands your horizons.

Plus you have no choice about your status. You're declared a terror state by the US empire. Your "freedom", i.e. isolation, was forced upon you. I mean its nice you have a positive attitude about it since you cannot do much about it, not as long as the US empire stands anyways (it seems to be in very big crisis now), but its not actual freedom by any means.

Meanwhile Iran sounds just like the west. You too are ruled by the rich. The only difference is your rich arent complete, hopeless nutjobs yet like ours.

Don't think it has a thing to do with a dictator like Putin,

Russia is a democracy. Putin has high popularity because he more than DOUBLED the income of average russians in his first term.

When FDR did the New Deal, the US americans kept voting for him for president until he was dead. The US americans had never done that before and it was disallowed after - the elites hated FDR. And the New Deal didnt even work.

The exact same effect is whats happening with Putin.

I guess you haven't heard, Russia is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. How do you think Putin became one of the richest men in the world?? It certainly wasn't on his salary.

Lists of corruption are meaningless - because they are by no means objective. They only count corruption thats typical for poor countries. Basically the more poor your country is, the lower it will be on such a list. Russia still is quite poor, so they are quite low on such lists.

The USA is most extremely corrupt, to unbelievable degrees - but doesnt get a low index on such lists.

Putin isnt rich. There is simply no evidence for that. There was this bullshit story he would own some big house at a sea but that was a complete fake.

You really are descending into a fantasy world,

Yeah well thats apparently the theme of this thread.

70 year old today. parkinson , ugly face full of botox , he lost the war, and his generals revolting

Well, he's indeed 70.

Supercop of the world is no longer the U.S. -- ?

Haha ! THE EU ?? Supercop ? ROTFL !

I utterly fail to see the point to add even more sanctions on Iran. They wont have any effect. This is pure virtue signaling and nothing else.

Proud public display that they are morons. They literally have no imagination. Sanctions sanctions sanctions is all they can ever do.

If any place in the Middle East is a "shit hole" it's because of over a century of either British, American, or Western Imperial meddling. [...]

QFT

Are you saying Hierarchy is endemic to mankind?

Definitely not.

The natural state is that all human beings are equal, and that leaders are chosen based on who is the best at something, not on any other criterion.

Our brain still assumes that. Which is why people show little empathy for people not their own class. Which is why when people get rich, they turn into psychopaths, with no empathy for average people.

https://www.livescience.com/8978-read-e ... -poor.html

Hierachy lead us from stone age to the moon.

Science and engineering and frankly a lot of recklessness got us to the moon ... for a very short time, very few people, and a lot of money and effort.

I don't define humanity by Imperial accomplishments.

Quite the contrary, they are destroying the earth and humanity.

Agreed.

One study found that the average amount of time a Saudi employee of the government spends working each day is 23 minutes.

That sounds brutally unlikely. Any chance for a source ?

[Rich]

I don't define humanity by Imperial accomplishments.

Quite the contrary, they are destroying the earth and humanity.

You use this forum, an imperial accomplishment. This forum wouldn't exist without the Web, which wouldn't exist without the internet, which wouldn't exist without microprocessors and modern electronics, which wouldn't exist without the second industrial revolutions, which wouldn't exist without the first. All of these required a multitude of hierarchies. If Gordon Moore had not believed in hierarchies, if he'd not specialised, if he'd not relied on lower paid manual workers to do the mundane tasks, we would have no Alder Lake (My desktop is still running on a 9700K just fine, but you get my point).

Now humans may have survived for hundreds of thousands of years without significant human hierarchy, but there was no universal human identity. Without heirachies 99.9% of humanity would be dead. Marxism, Anarchism, Anarcho-Syndaclism, what ever your bag is, may all have fantasies about a future classless, hierarchy-less societies, but the ideologies only exist because of the economic cultural foundations laid by thousands of years of human hierarchies.

[Negotiator]

You use this forum, an imperial accomplishment. This forum wouldn't exist without the Web, which wouldn't exist without the internet, which wouldn't exist without microprocessors and modern electronics, which wouldn't exist without the second industrial revolutions, which wouldn't exist without the first. All of these required a multitude of hierarchies. If Gordon Moore had not believed in hierarchies, if he'd not specialised, if he'd not relied on lower paid manual workers to do the mundane tasks, we would have no Alder Lake (My desktop is still running on a 9700K just fine, but you get my point).

Now humans may have survived for hundreds of thousands of years without significant human hierarchy, but there was no universal human identity. Without heirachies 99.9% of humanity would be dead. Marxism, Anarchism, Anarcho-Syndaclism, what ever your bag is, may all have fantasies about a future classless, hierarchy-less societies, but the ideologies only exist because of the economic cultural foundations laid by thousands of years of human hierarchies.

Nope.

You are deeply confused about a lot of things.

Just because there are scientists and workers doesnt mean there has to be a hierarchy. They can be perfectly seen as equals. People who are good at different things and thus do different things. Especially since scientists not usually command workers in the first place, unless we talk about large engineering projects like for example the large hadron collider.

Just because there are leaders doesnt mean they have to be considered better people. They just have to be the best at what they do, so everyone benefits from them being leaders.

Also, communism, socialism, anarchism etc doesnt mean absence of leaders. Leaders are a natural thing and have always exist and will always exist. They are simply the most efficient way to do things. As long as the leader you have is really the best.

Capitalism, the idea that the rich should rule society, has only existed since about 500 years. It was not required before and it is not required now.

More importantly, capitalism kills us. The reason why we have so many wars and why mankind is currently in danger of WW3 and why the climate collapse is going to happen in some years.

[Skynet]

All pro-regime folks have weapons and ammo at home: The Basiji-militia is about 7 million men and women strong!

[litwin]

What the hell is that.





A world can either be free - or "clean and untained".

A clean and untained world is a prison because you're not free to choose how you want to live. In a free society, different opinion is allowed. In fact, welcomed, because it expands your horizons.

Plus you have no choice about your status. You're declared a terror state by the US empire. Your "freedom", i.e. isolation, was forced upon you. I mean its nice you have a positive attitude about it since you cannot do much about it, not as long as the US empire stands anyways (it seems to be in very big crisis now), but its not actual freedom by any means.

Meanwhile Iran sounds just like the west. You too are ruled by the rich. The only difference is your rich arent complete, hopeless nutjobs yet like ours.




Russia is a democracy. Putin has high popularity because he more than DOUBLED the income of average russians in his first term.

When FDR did the New Deal, the US americans kept voting for him for president until he was dead. The US americans had never done that before and it was disallowed after - the elites hated FDR. And the New Deal didnt even work.

The exact same effect is whats happening with Putin.




Lists of corruption are meaningless - because they are by no means objective. They only count corruption thats typical for poor countries. Basically the more poor your country is, the lower it will be on such a list. Russia still is quite poor, so they are quite low on such lists.

The USA is most extremely corrupt, to unbelievable degrees - but doesnt get a low index on such lists.

Putin isnt rich. There is simply no evidence for that. There was this bullshit story he would own some big house at a sea but that was a complete fake.




Yeah well thats apparently the theme of this thread.




Well, he's indeed 70.




Haha ! THE EU ?? Supercop ? ROTFL !

I utterly fail to see the point to add even more sanctions on Iran. They wont have any effect. This is pure virtue signaling and nothing else.

Proud public display that they are morons. They literally have no imagination. Sanctions sanctions sanctions is all they can ever do.




QFT




Definitely not.

The natural state is that all human beings are equal, and that leaders are chosen based on who is the best at something, not on any other criterion.

Our brain still assumes that. Which is why people show little empathy for people not their own class. Which is why when people get rich, they turn into psychopaths, with no empathy for average people.

https://www.livescience.com/8978-read-e ... -poor.html





Science and engineering and frankly a lot of recklessness got us to the moon ... for a very short time, very few people, and a lot of money and effort.





Agreed.



That sounds brutally unlikely. Any chance for a source ?

1) Moscow RT suggests that they fight homosexual "west"

2) Moscow is a democracy. is a bad joke, only en idiot ´d ever read your crap, you, much all ivan buddies have 0 credibility

[ckaihatsu]

Now humans may have survived for hundreds of thousands of years without significant human hierarchy, but there was no universal human identity. Without heirachies 99.9% of humanity would be dead. Marxism, Anarchism, Anarcho-Syndaclism, what ever your bag is, may all have fantasies about a future classless, hierarchy-less societies, but the ideologies only exist because of the economic cultural foundations laid by thousands of years of human hierarchies.

Yeah, it's called 'post-scarcity economics':

Marxism

Karl Marx, in a section of his Grundrisse that came to be known as the "Fragment on Machines",[24][25] argued that the transition to a post-capitalist society combined with advances in automation would allow for significant reductions in labor needed to produce necessary goods, eventually reaching a point where all people would have significant amounts of leisure time to pursue science, the arts, and creative activities; a state some commentators later labeled as "post-scarcity".[26] Marx argued that capitalism—the dynamic of economic growth based on capital accumulation—depends on exploiting the surplus labor of workers, but a post-capitalist society would allow for:

The free development of individualities, and hence not the reduction of necessary labour time so as to posit surplus labour, but rather the general reduction of the necessary labour of society to a minimum, which then corresponds to the artistic, scientific etc. development of the individuals in the time set free, and with the means created, for all of them.[27]

Marx's concept of a post-capitalist communist society involves the free distribution of goods made possible by the abundance provided by automation.[28] The fully developed communist economic system is postulated to develop from a preceding socialist system. Marx held the view that socialism—a system based on social ownership of the means of production—would enable progress toward the development of fully developed communism by further advancing productive technology. Under socialism, with its increasing levels of automation, an increasing proportion of goods would be distributed freely.[29]

Marx did not believe in the elimination of most physical labor through technological advancements alone in a capitalist society, because he believed capitalism contained within it certain tendencies which countered increasing automation and prevented it from developing beyond a limited point, so that manual industrial labor could not be eliminated until the overthrow of capitalism.[30] Some commentators on Marx have argued that at the time he wrote the Grundrisse, he thought that the collapse of capitalism due to advancing automation was inevitable despite these counter-tendencies, but that by the time of his major work Capital: Critique of Political Economy he had abandoned this view, and came to believe that capitalism could continually renew itself unless overthrown.[31][32][33]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scar ... my#Marxism

[ckaihatsu]

Leaders are a natural thing and have always exist and will always exist. They are simply the most efficient way to do things. As long as the leader you have is really the best.

I'll juxtapose / add that, with Internet / world media and the 2003 emergence of the 'second superpower', I think the global public now has had its own 'presence' on the world stage for a couple of decades now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_superpower

[late]

Russia is a democracy.




Lists of corruption are meaningless

We don't throw political opponents in jail, or out windows. Sure, Russia has a vote, but Putin makes sure he wins...

Actually, they aren't meaningless. Russia was fabulously corrupt before Putin, and the Economist estimates Putin increased that by 20%. You can see it in the Ukraine conflict quite easily.

[Negotiator]

is a bad joke, only en idiot

An idiot is somebody who, when faced with reality, can only react with insults, not with counterarguments.

We don't throw political opponents in jail,

OMG you didnt just said that.

Who the frak is Julian Assange -- if not a political prisoner of the west ?

And they're torturing him with increasingly awful living conditions for how long now ? A decade ?

Seriously ? THAT is your counterargument ? The west has no political prisoners ???

Not to mention all the other whistleblowers the west has thrown in jail.

Or the case of Edward Snowden, who cant go back to the USA despite doing the public a huge service.

Assange, Snowden etc should be highly regarded, not persecuted.



But since you are apparently under the impression - I'm far from claiming Russia is the ideal democracy. I know they aint. I'm just saying they are one, even if not great and full of obvious manipulation.

And I know that Putin IS so popular with enough people that he can get reelected since 20 years.

And from people who have been there I know that russia media isnt all monopolized like in the USA and in Germany, but is much more like our media was in the 1970s. For example there is no problem to find media in Russia who are anti-Putin. And a solid 25% or so of russians are strictly anti-Putin. I would be, too, since I'm a christian and communist.



And by the way, show me any country that has elections that has worse elections than the USA. The election system itself is completely manipulated, they use voting machines, black people are systematically excluded from voting, you have to wait for days for the results, the constitution doesnt actually explicitly give people a right to vote, etc. I dont think any other democracy has such a bad voting system.



Germany btw is also a really bad democracy, but thats for another thread. Its far more subtle than the USA, but in the end we germans have no real sovereignty anyway, as was just proven again. Guess what the russians have. Despite the USA trying their best to take it from them.



P.s.: And by the way, as far as I am aware, the only political opposition thats actually in jail in Russia is Nawalny, and he is there because he broke the law. He didnt get a harsh sentence either.

Plus he polls in the single digits. The main opposition in Russia are the communists.

The russians cared so little about Nawalny, when Germany asked for the guy to treat him, they said sure. Would they have done that if Nawalny was actually a political opponent they tried to suppress ?!?

And Nawalnys poisoning was never independently confirmed. His russian doctors had not found anything. The whole story stinks to heaven.

[Morgan Le Fey]

You use this forum, an imperial accomplishment. This forum wouldn't exist without the Web, which wouldn't exist without the internet, which wouldn't exist without microprocessors and modern electronics, which wouldn't exist without the second industrial revolutions, which wouldn't exist without the first. All of these required a multitude of hierarchies. If Gordon Moore had not believed in hierarchies, if he'd not specialised, if he'd not relied on lower paid manual workers to do the mundane tasks, we would have no Alder Lake (My desktop is still running on a 9700K just fine, but you get my point).

Now humans may have survived for hundreds of thousands of years without significant human hierarchy, but there was no universal human identity. Without heirachies 99.9% of humanity would be dead. Marxism, Anarchism, Anarcho-Syndaclism, what ever your bag is, may all have fantasies about a future classless, hierarchy-less societies, but the ideologies only exist because of the economic cultural foundations laid by thousands of years of human hierarchies.

It's a little funny you think you're going to talk me out of the position I hold but ok.

1. Are you presuming this was the only way to have the internet?
2. Your chain of technology is useless as I'm not a Luddite. It's sort of like singing the song from The Big Bang Theory. It all started with the Big Bang!
3. You know nothing of "universal human identity" and neither do I because I'm not making any kind of argument based on something so spurious.
4. Humanity would not be dead without human Hierarchy. That's absolutely absurd and flies in the face of what we do know of "pre-civilized humans" quite the contrary, Without a measurable hierarchy (Its inevitable humans will have soft hierarchies) humans "descend" into a state of Anarchy ( ) and with common sense can mold that into personal and communal Autonomy.
5. Your moon mission did squat for the personal Autonomy of the humans cheering it on. As if a Space Race is more meaningful than raising our families and enriching our communities.

[late]

Who the frak is Julian Assange -- if not a political prisoner of the west ?

Russia kills guys like Assange.

While Trump wanted to throw his political opponents in jail, didn't happen.

The discussion is almost academic, at this point, the Russian economy is imploding.

[Truth To Power]

Is your post that I replied to indeed.

Garbage.

You use faith in a generalised manner when in fact your particular usage of religious followers is far more specific.

It's true whichever interpretation you use. The Qu'ran obviously intended it to mean religious faith.

And from the specific .ie 'religious followers of a creed' you then transpose to make a generalized leap to all 'faith'.

If there is no one who does not have faith, then the Qu'ran's claim is meaningless.

You are attempting to exclude faith from non-denominational credos which quite visibly exist, from the woke to medicine and science.

Maybe woke culture has an element of faith. It makes so little sense, I suppose it probably does. But medicine and science do not.

Ergo, your post is a no-true scotsman fallacy.

Refuted above.

You are saying:

No true scientist has faith.

No, I am saying scientists who do not have faith have no less heart and are no more apes than scientists who do.

No true rationalist has faith.

No, I am saying that a rationalist can lack faith and be no more an ape, and have no less heart, than someone who does have faith.

But you 're wrong.

I am of course objectively correct and you are objectively incorrect. OBJECTIVELY.

[noemon]

It's true whichever interpretation you use. The Qu'ran obviously intended it to mean religious faith.

If there is no one who does not have faith, then the Qu'ran's claim is meaningless.

Your ignorance is not an argument. And here you are engaging(rather doubling down) on yet another no-true-scotsman fallacy.

You are now saying:

No true Mohammed would consider faithfull non-Muslims or non-Abrahamics or non-religious people.

Again, a fallacy.

But medicine and science do not.

LOL, doctors prescribing medicines even for skin problems is a purely faith-based process of elimination.

Have that antibiotic and let's see if anything happens, if not we'll try another one and then another one.

No, I am saying scientists who do not have faith have no less heart and are no more apes than scientists who do.

Rephrasing your no-true-scotsman fallacy will not render it a non-fallacy no matter how much you try to obfuscate it. It's pointless.

I am of course objectively correct and you are objectively incorrect. OBJECTIVELY.

Your argument has been demonstrated for what it is, accept your loss and move on.
Doctors can have faith denominational or non and still be good doctors.
Scientists the same.

If people have no faith on anything not even their own selves, then they are sub-par.