Merkel: the Minsk agreements have been a lie - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15256867
https://www.news18.com/news/world/ukrai ... 67083.html

Former German chancellor Angela Merkel in an interview with German news outlet Der Spiegel defended her policy towards Russia and said her stance on Ukraine during the Minsk peace talks bought Kyiv time to fight Russia better.


So the goal of not just the USA and Ukraine, but even Germany and probably all of EU was always - war between Ukraine and Russia.

This was the goal of the coup d'etat of the west controlled "color revolution" in Ukraine in 2014.

They really thought they could destroy Russia this way.



In case you're unaware, Ukraine and Russia had good relations until the coup.

And in case you are unaware, we know for sure that the color revolution of Ukraine was US controlled, because the government official Victoria Nuland[1] made a telephone call to the US ambassador in Ukraine in which she talked what coup regime she wanted to have. She famously said "F*** the EU" in this telephone call and apologized for that - which confirmed the authenticity of this recording.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

So yes we know with certainty that this coup was organized by the USA. And ever since Ukraine has been extremely aggressive towards Russia. Probably because the USA kept being in control, even if we dont know that for sure.



Whow.

As someone who has always opposed Merkel - I'm still very surprised she sank this low.

She too supports the pointless death of thousands of ukrainians and russians in an easily preventable war which Obama already told us in 2016 will reliably end with Russia winning for the simple reason that they have escalatory dominance.

https://www.theatlantic.com/press-relea ... ns/473151/

The unabashed evil of politicians is sometimes extremely astonishing.

Also, Merkel, just like the current german government, violated her oath of office with this, to keep harm from the germans. All our current woes, the exploding gas and food prices, the increasing economic crisis, and the upcoming new wave of ukrainian refugees, are all therefore also caused by her as well.




[1]: Nuland recently also famously leaked that there are biological laboratories in Ukraine. She said at the same time they're harmless and that its a great danger if Russia captures them. The later only makes sense if these labs are developing bioweapons. The russians are saying they tried to create bioweapons explicitly against slaves.
#15256869
Negotiator wrote:https://www.news18.com/news/world/ukraine-war-merkel-says-minsk-talks-helped-kyiv-buy-time-prepare-better-6467083.html



So the goal


It's not a surprise that Merkel is making excuses. That fat pig was always Vladolf Pootler 's latent commie whore.

Fun fact: the horde has a SMALLER economy than South Korea! :lol:
…and with a population smaller than Bangladesh (despite being 100 x times bigger) & a war being fought, I can’t help but think the horde ’s economy getting even worse. :lol:


#15256876
Negotiator wrote:So the goal of not just the USA and Ukraine, but even Germany and probably all of EU was always - war between Ukraine and Russia.

The goal of the USA and the EU was freedom and prosperity for Ukrainian citizens. The kind of freedom and prosperity that exists in Finland, Estonia, Poland and Czechia.
#15256879
Rich wrote:The goal of the USA and the EU was freedom and prosperity for Ukrainian citizens. The kind of freedom and prosperity that exists in Finland, Estonia, Poland and Czechia.

No, actually their goal was to secure cheap energy and a weak but stable Ukraine and a weak but stable Russia. If they could draw Ukraine into their own sphere of influence, then that would be a bonus. Merkel herself almost certainly had no plans to foment a war between Russia and Ukraine, if only because nobody expected Putin to be so reckless as to actually invade Ukraine. Not even Putin's own ambassadors saw that one coming. No, Merkel was just pursuing standard Realpolitik with the East, and is now trying to retrospectively justify her past actions as being good for Ukraine. Lol.
#15256882
Rich wrote:The goal of the USA and the EU was freedom and prosperity for Ukrainian citizens. The kind of freedom and prosperity that exists in Finland, Estonia, Poland and Czechia.


It's what Ukrainians want.

It was a genuine popular uprising, with huge participation over the course of months.

Negotiator is just sour that the FSB-infested parts of the Ukrainian security services couldn't put it down.

Potemkin wrote:No, actually their goal was to secure cheap energy and a weak but stable Ukraine and a weak but stable Russia. If they could draw Ukraine into their own sphere of influence, then that would be a bonus. Merkel herself almost certainly had no plans to foment a war between Russia and Ukraine, if only because nobody expected Putin to be so reckless as to actually invade Ukraine. Not even Putin's own ambassadors saw that one coming. No, Merkel was just pursuing standard Realpolitik with the East, and is now trying to retrospectively justify her past actions as being good for Ukraine. Lol.


Retarded.

Not a fan of the EU, but it's absolutely trying to make its members prosperous and democratic and after Euromaidan long-term EU membership was basically a foregone conlusion.
#15256887
Rich wrote:The goal of the USA and the EU was freedom and prosperity for Ukrainian citizens. The kind of freedom and prosperity that exists in Finland, Estonia, Poland and Czechia.



the best ever post, +1
#15257119
Negotiator wrote:...So the goal of not just the USA and Ukraine, but even Germany and probably all of EU was always - war between Ukraine and Russia.

This was the goal of the coup d'etat of the west controlled "color revolution" in Ukraine in 2014.

They really thought they could destroy Russia this way.



In case you're unaware, Ukraine and Russia had good relations until the coup....Victoria Nuland...F*** the EU...


This is the recent history that Westerners are supposed to forget. As sheep, we are supposed to concentrate on making wool and eating grass, and let the farmers go after whoever they wish.

As someone who has always opposed Merkel - I'm still very surprised she sank this low.

We all think that because Germany has a lot of tall blond people, provided an incredible amount of philosophy before WW1, makes expensive cars, and has a national character that resembles Spock on Star Trek, that they are a powerful country.
But like Guam, Niger, Kosovo and Kuwait, Germany is built around USA military bases. So it is an empty vassal that is forced to do whatever it is told.

Same with Canada, which is why most of our politicians are hollow game-show host types with no vision of their own.

Merkel got great press because... she did whatever the press (and Western banks) wanted her to do.

Most recommended question for journalists to ask Angela Merkel and most other Western politicians: "What did Harvey Weinstein's schlong taste like?"
#15257128
Negotiator wrote:


So the goal of not just the USA and Ukraine, but even Germany and probably all of EU was always - war between Ukraine and Russia.




That's idiotic.

The goal is Putin's, to rebuild the empire. He has made no secret of it.

He also stole Crimea.

Everyone paying attention knew it was coming, even if we didn't know the specifics..
#15257139
I see two scenarios here:

A. What @Negotiator has posted is false and Putin is an imperialist fascist bastard.

B. What @Negotiator has said is accurate and Putin is a simple minded dumb shit who has fallen for their trap.

Take your pick. In any case Putin must go because we can’t have fascist dictators in charge of nuclear weapons, nor can we have an idiot street hoodlum in charge of nuclear weapons.

:lol:
Last edited by Szabo on 29 Nov 2022 09:10, edited 1 time in total.
#15257141
@Szabo

You are familiar with the Holodomor, correct? The Ukrainian community in the USA commemorated the Holodomor when Joseph Stalin targeted the Ukrainian population and culture for extermination via starvation. I understand why the Soviet Union wanted Ukraine and why Putin's Russia wants Ukraine. Ukraine is key to building a strong empire. The Soviet Union wanted Ukraine so it could sell its grain to pay for industrialization so that it may build a strong military. This is the same reason why Putin wants Ukraine.

#15257143
Politics_Observer wrote:You are familiar with the Holodomor, correct?

Hehe, you can’t be Ukrainian without knowing about it. It’s like being Jewish without knowing about the Holocaust.

I’ve heard first hand accounts about it. One of my in-laws had to stash food in the attic to survive in those times.

My knowledge on Soviet history is extremely good by the way, far better than most Ukrainians. I was even permitted to skip my history exam in university by my professor. I’m also pretty good on pre-Soviet Ukrainian and Russian history, albeit to a lesser extent.
#15257144
@Szabo

Here in the United States, the Ukrainian community is pushing the U.S. government to recognize Holodomor as an act of genocide. I fully support the position of the Ukrainian community and believe it is the correct policy of the U.S. government to recognize the Holodomor for the genocide that it was.
#15257166
QatzelOk wrote:
But like Guam, Niger, Kosovo and Kuwait, Germany is built around USA military bases. So it is an empty vassal that is forced to do whatever it is told.

Same with Canada, which is why most of our politicians are hollow game-show host types with no vision of their own.

Merkel got great press because... she did whatever the press (and Western banks) wanted her to do.



...And they object when I term this 'machine politics' -- (!)

What am I to *do*, Qatzel -- !


= )
#15257205
I find it hilarious how people here rationalize and virtue signal and worst of all do personal attack and yet clearly havent read the OP.

The civil war in Ukraine had cost 14,400 people their lives, according to the UN, and included a constant bombardement of civilians in the Donbas. A bombardement that Ukraine had massively intensified in the weeks before the invasion.

But who cares. Those are just ukrainians. Their lifes dont matter, right ? Just as little as the lifes of the millions of muslim civilians that the USA has bombed over the past decades.

The Minsk agreements have been supposed to stop this civil war, but instead Ukraine prepared for war.




Rich wrote:The goal of the USA and the EU was freedom and prosperity for Ukrainian citizens. [...]


Projections when Ukraine would have been fit to join the EU have been in decades.

And Russia opposes Ukraine joining NATO, not joining the EU.
#15257207
Negotiator wrote:The civil war in Ukraine had cost 14,400 people their lives, according to the UN, and included a constant bombardment of civilians in the Donbas.


The losses were on both sides. The separatists were bombing the other side just as much. How do you think Germany would react if Bavaria wanted to violently separate, with sweets and chocolates?

Also, care to share why the cities of Donetsk and Luhansk hardly have any damage to them if Ukraine were indeed bombing them to oblivion?

Why on the other hand were other cities in the Donbass which were invaded by Russia like Mariupol, Severodonetsk and Lysychansk flattened?

And why did the majority of refugees from Donbass flee to Ukraine instead of to Russia?

Stop talking about things you have no idea about.

A bombardement that Ukraine had massively intensified in the weeks before the invasion.


As much a fantasy as Lukashenko claiming that Ukraine were about to invade Belarus before a preemptive invasion was launched by their Russian masters.

Tell your fantasies to the bums and alcoholics in the Moscow train stations. They'll sympathise.

#15257210
Negotiator wrote:I find it hilarious how people here rationalize and virtue signal and worst of all do personal attack and yet clearly havent read the OP.

The civil war in Ukraine had cost 14,400 people their lives, according to the UN, and included a constant bombardement of civilians in the Donbas. A bombardement that Ukraine had massively intensified in the weeks before the invasion.

But who cares. Those are just ukrainians. Their lifes dont matter, right ?

I always argued that Ukraine and the West should accept that Crimea and what remained of the Republics after the Ukrainian counter offensive in 2014 as part of Russia. I never said that Putin had no legitimate grievances against Ukraine, or against the West for example over Southern Serbia. Just that those grievances were no where near enough to justify his open ended invasion and thinly veiled threats of nuclear war. If he'd made modest territorial demands and was willing to give up Transnistria and accept EU and NATO membership for Ukraine then I would have pushed for acceptance of his demands.

The Minsk agreements have been supposed to stop this civil war, but instead Ukraine prepared for war.

The Minsk agreements were not reasonable good faith agreements. I always argued they should be treated with total and utter contempt. Territorial concessions to Russia were one thing, but permanent interference by Russia in Ukrainian affairs is not something that should have been accepted in my view.

Just as little as the lifes of the millions of muslim civilians that the USA has bombed over the past decades.

Nearly all of the bombing of Muslims has been at the request of other Muslims. the US should make no apologies for bombing Muslim terrorists or anyone that voluntarily gives them support.
#15257227
Negotiator wrote:I find it hilarious how people here rationalize and virtue signal and worst of all do personal attack and yet clearly havent read the OP.

The civil war in Ukraine had cost 14,400 people their lives, according to the UN, and included a constant bombardement of civilians in the Donbas. A bombardement that Ukraine had massively intensified in the weeks before the invasion.

But who cares. Those are just ukrainians. Their lifes dont matter, right ? Just as little as the lifes of the millions of muslim civilians that the USA has bombed over the past decades.


For the owners of mainstream media, slavic lives really don't matter. Mainstream media has been using Slavic "bad guys" in their movies and TV shows for decades in order to get viewers to develop a racism against these people. So it's not that *people* don't care, it's that *media viewers* have been trained not to care. That's an important precision.

***

Rich wrote:I never said that Putin had no legitimate grievances against Ukraine, or against the West for example over Southern Serbia. Just that those grievances were no where near enough to justify his open ended invasion and thinly veiled threats of nuclear war.

Well, if the Russians had overthrown Canada's government and installed an American-hating Anglo-bashing coke head actor, I think the USA would have done the exact same thing. As would any country faced with this kind of obvious interference. Also, bio-labs run by neo-cons on your border? How would the USA respond to Russian bio-labs on its border? Answer: exactly the same way.

***

Szabo wrote:The losses were on both sides. The separatists were bombing the other side just as much. How do you think Germany would react if Bavaria wanted to violently separate...?

Well, if the German government had been overthrown by China and had become Bavarian-haters.... same. They would react with hatred towards Bavaria, and there would be no end in sight for the misery of Bavarians.

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