[wat0n]

@wat0n

I am not discussing the internal motives of the individual officers and why they felt they were entitled to kill a black man. I am discussing systemic racism. If you wish to assume that black cops are immune to racism, feel free, though it seems odd to argue that black people are more moral than other cops.

And we need to address systemic racism in policing, so I want to go back to that.

And yet it is key to understand why is it that they felt entitled to kill this person.

I also do wonder why would you say the system is not punishing this behavior given what I mentioned earlier:

1) Both Whites and Blacks are slightly overrepresented in police, and these guys happen to be Black
2) 64% of the population of Memphis is Black - African Americans are not an isolated subpopulation but the majority of the city
3) Neither the city nor the PD tried to cover the incident up, if anything, they are sharing all the video evidence they have (bodycams or of another kind)
4) The prosecutors are in fact charging them

Of course, they may still be freed by the court system. But if they aren't... What's the problem here?

[Unthinking Majority]

No, I think this is due to more to systemic racism than to individual racism on the part of any one specific cop.

So, while I agree that that there is no instance of individual racism to be seen here, this does seem to be an example of systemic racism.

What evidence do you have that systemic racism occured here?

[Pants-of-dog]

What evidence do you have that systemic racism occured here?

Other than the dead body, the video, and the statistics showing how black men are more likely to deal with lethal police violence?

If that is not good enough evidence for you, please clarify exactly what would constitute good evidence of systemic racism in policing.

—————-

@wat0n

Again, the only reason they are being charged is because the footage clearly shows an unnecessary use of force.

If the film did hot exist or was never seen by anyone outside the force, this would not have happened.

So, the problem of systemic racism still exists.

And it will continue to exist and cause these types of murders as long as people ignore it or refuse to believe in it.

So, what would constitute good evidence of systemic racism in policing?

[wat0n]

@wat0n

Again, the only reason they are being charged is because the footage clearly shows an unnecessary use of force.

If the film did hot exist or was never seen by anyone outside the force, this would not have happened.

So, the problem of systemic racism still exists.

And it will continue to exist and cause these types of murders as long as people ignore it or refuse to believe in it.

So, what would constitute good evidence of systemic racism in policing?

How do you know that's the only reason these cops are being charged? If anything, isn't the fact that a video clearly showing what happened leads to a charge shows the authorities are doing their job? I compare it with other cases where this did not happen and I can tell the difference. You sound a lot like a religious cultist at this point.

I already gave you an example of not merely "good evidence" but of unquestionable systemic racism.

[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

We know that cops will not be charged with a crime unless there is publicly available video evidence as well as public outcry because history provides no counter example.

This shows that authorities sre not doing their job unless forced to by overwhelming public action.

And please clarify what example of systemic racism you mentioned.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

We know that cops will not be charged with a crime unless there is publicly available video evidence as well as public outcry because history provides no counter example.

This shows that authorities sre not doing their job unless forced to by overwhelming public action.

And please clarify what example of systemic racism you mentioned.

What video exactly?

The DA asked the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation to start an inquiry on January 7th, the same night of the incident. Here's a report from January 8th:

https://www.actionnews5.com/2023/01/08/ ... -incident/

What exactly are you talking about?

[MadMonk]

Video evidence is good. Without it, there would be almost no chance that the killers of Ahmaud Arbery been indicted, let alone convicted.

On February 23, 2020, Ahmaud Arbery, a 25-year-old black man, was murdered during a racially motivated hate crime while jogging in Satilla Shores, a neighborhood near Brunswick in Glynn County, Georgia. Erroneously assuming he was a burglar, three white men pursued Arbery in their trucks for several minutes, using the vehicles to block his path as he tried to run away. Two of the men, Travis McMichael and his father, Gregory McMichael, were armed in one vehicle. Their neighbor, William "Roddie" Bryan, was in another vehicle. After overtaking Arbery, Travis McMichael exited his truck and assaulted Arbery with a shotgun. As Arbery attempted to defend himself, Travis McMichael fatally shot him. Bryan recorded this confrontation and Arbery's murder on his cell phone.

Members of the Glynn County Police Department (GCPD) arrived on the scene soon after the shooting, but no arrests were made for more than two months. The GCPD said the Brunswick District Attorney's Office first advised them to make no arrests, then Waycross District Attorney George Barnhill twice advised the GCPD to make no arrests, once before he was officially assigned to the case, and once while announcing his intention to recuse due to a conflict of interest. At the behest of Gregory McMichael, a local attorney provided Bryan's video to local radio station WGIG, which published the video on May 5. The video went viral on YouTube and Twitter. The Georgia Bureau of Investigation (GBI) arrested the McMichaels on May 7 and Bryan on May 21, charging them with felony murder and other crimes.

The case was ultimately transferred to the Cobb County District Attorney's Office. On June 24, 2020, a grand jury indicted each of the three men on charges of malice murder, felony murder, and other crimes. Their trial began in November 2021 in the Glynn County Superior Court; all three were convicted on November 24 of felony murder, aggravated assault, false imprisonment and criminal attempt to commit false imprisonment. Travis McMichael was further convicted of malice murder. On January 7, 2022, the McMichaels were sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole plus 20 years, while Bryan was sentenced to life imprisonment with the possibility of parole after 30 years. On February 22, 2022, the three men were found guilty in a federal court of attempted kidnapping and the hate crime of interference with rights, while the McMichaels were also convicted of one count of using firearms during a crime of violence.

The local authorities' handling of the case resulted in nationwide criticism and debates on racial profiling in the United States. Many religious leaders, politicians, athletes, and other celebrities condemned the incident. Georgia Attorney General Christopher M. Carr formally requested the intervention of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the case on May 10, 2020, which was granted the following day. Former Brunswick District Attorney Jackie Johnson was indicted in September 2021 for "showing favor and affection" to Gregory (her former subordinate) during the investigation, and for obstructing law enforcement by directing that Travis not be arrested. In the aftermath of the murder, Georgia enacted hate crimes legislation in June 2020, then repealed and replaced its citizen's arrest law in May 2021.

Murder of Ahmaud Arbery (Wiki)

[Pants-of-dog]

What video exactly?

The DA asked the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation to start an inquiry on January 7th, the same night of the incident. Here's a report from January 8th:

https://www.actionnews5.com/2023/01/08/ ... -incident/

What exactly are you talking about?

The current investigation is atypical, in both its speed and transparency. Do you agree?

Would you also agree that the system usually takes years and makes it difficult for the public to obtain information?

[wat0n]

The current investigation is atypical, in both its speed and transparency. Do you agree?

Would you also agree that the system usually takes years and makes it difficult for the public to obtain information?

So what role did systemic racism play in this incident?

[late]

So what role did systemic racism play in this incident?

It's why it happened.

[Pants-of-dog]

So what role did systemic racism play in this incident?

The cops undoubtedly felt they could get away with this violence and abuse of their power because the vast majority of previous episodes of violence and murder that were targeted at black people led to impunity on the part of the police.

The fact that this did not happen is almost certainly a result of the spotlight on, and discussion about, systemic racism after the murder of Mr. George Floyd.

[wat0n]

It's why it happened.

The cops undoubtedly felt they could get away with this violence and abuse of their power because the vast majority of previous episodes of violence and murder that were targeted at black people led to impunity on the part of the police.

The fact that this did not happen is almost certainly a result of the spotlight on, and discussion about, systemic racism after the murder of Mr. George Floyd.

Prove it.

Go on, prove that was these cops' state of mind.

I'm waiting.

[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

The descriptions of the video include descriptions of the cops fist-bumping and otherwise congratulating each other.

It is not only obvious that they did not feel any chagrin or remorse, but equally obvious that they felt no need to pretend that this violence and abuse was necessary.

This attitude only makes sense if we assume that the cops believed that the people watching the footage would have also approved of their behaviour.

[late]

I'm waiting.

Don't hold your breath.

I have little tolerance for the wilfully ignorant, to put a charitable spin on it.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

The descriptions of the video include descriptions of the cops fist-bumping and otherwise congratulating each other.

It is not only obvious that they did not feel any chagrin or remorse, but equally obvious that they felt no need to pretend that this violence and abuse was necessary.

This attitude only makes sense if we assume that the cops believed that the people watching the footage would have also approved of their behaviour.

And yet an investigation was started on the same day by the DA, which doesn't quite add up with this narrative. That's leaving aside the question as to why'd they target another Black person specifically.

What makes you believe they were that strategic? They are being charged for 2nd degree murder, implying the prosecution does not believe it is able to prove premeditation. I searched a bit about TN's homicide law and found these:

As used in subdivision (a)(1), “premeditation” is an act done after the exercise of reflection and judgment. “Premeditation” means that the intent to kill must have been formed prior to the act itself. It is not necessary that the purpose to kill preexist in the mind of the accused for any definite period of time. The mental state of the accused at the time the accused allegedly decided to kill must be carefully considered in order to determine whether the accused was sufficiently free from excitement and passion as to be capable of premeditation.

And this is murder, because:

In a prosecution for a violation of this section, if the defendant knowingly engages in multiple incidents of domestic abuse, assault or the infliction of bodily injury against a single victim, the trier of fact may infer that the defendant was aware that the cumulative effect of the conduct was reasonably certain to result in the death of the victim, regardless of whether any single incident would have resulted in the death.

If anything, the video of their conversation after the fact actually shows them trying to manufacture an ex-post excuse for this type of use of force, since one of them starts claiming Nichols tried to reach his gun, and a shit one at that given they know they were being recorded and it's clear it's bogus.

You are giving these guys way too much credit.

@late if you say so, to me, this sounds like religious fanaticism.

[Pants-of-dog]

And yet an investigation was started on the same day by the DA, which doesn't quite add up with this narrative.

It adds up just fine. The cops were simply wrong.

That's leaving aside the question as to why'd they target another Black person specifically.

The explanation of systemic racism directly addresses why they targeted a black man.

What makes you believe they were that strategic? They are being charged for 2nd degree murder, implying the prosecution does not believe it is able to prove premeditation. I searched a bit about TN's homicide law and found these:



And this is murder, because:



If anything, the video of their conversation after the fact actually shows them trying to manufacture an ex-post excuse for this type of use of force, since one of them starts claiming Nichols tried to reach his gun, and a shit one at that given they know they were being recorded and it's clear it's bogus.

You are giving these guys way too much credit.

@late if you say so, to me, this sounds like religious fanaticism.

Since I never claimed premeditation, this is an irrelevant criticism.

All they thought was that whomever watched the film after this would approve of their actions. This requires no premeditation of any sort.

And the fact that they manufactured an excuse while being recorded only reinforces my claim.

[Rich]

Has it never occurred to the average so called White Liberal that these so called Black police officers might actually care about "Black Lives" or at least the law abiding members and children of Black communities. I'm not saying these police officers were right to take the law into their own hands, but when you've got some deranged criminal, high on drugs speeding through your local neighbourhood its not surprising that the rights of the criminal sometimes come second.

Please stop this nonsense about institutional racism, this is the police taking the law into their own hands, as police have tended to do in pretty much every country in the world since the modern police force came into existence. Liberals do you actually believe this drivel you spout? I support, the rule of law, not the rule of the police, I support due process, but lets not pretend that it doesn't have a cost. A minority and it can even be as small minority of criminals can make life a misery for the majority of the community. it can be difficult for the liberal elite in their gated communities to understand why people in poor crime ridden communities would support authoritarian policing, but this is a phenomena we see the world over.

[wat0n]

@Pants-of-dog your claims do indeed imply premeditation.

[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

Please explain how my scenario involves any premeditation. Thank you.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

Please explain how my scenario involves any premeditation. Thank you.

You said it yourself, allow me to focus on the most relevant part:

...they felt no need to pretend that this violence and abuse was necessary.

This attitude only makes sense if we assume that the cops believed that the people watching the footage would have also approved of their behaviour.

This requires, by definition, premeditation.

Also, it is also not true that they did not believe they had to provide a justification. That's why one of them said Nichols was trying to reach for his gun (obviously false). Maybe it was thinking about possible prosecution or maybe it's just about assuaging his own conscience. It doesn't matter, it's clearly an attempted justification.