[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

No, I do not care to repeat myself, thank you.

Anyway, the argument that this is not systemic racism requires that the cops thought about these spousal abuse killings before or when attacking Mr. Nichols, believing that these cases were similar enough to the abuse they were engaged in at the time, reasoning that they would not have institutional support, and then deciding to kill Mr. Nichols anyway.

I find this difficult to believe.

[wat0n]

@Pants-of-dog not really. It is enough for the cops to just have acted disregarding the potential punishment they could face for beating Tyre Nichols up, along with the corresponding response by the DA office and the city, for systemic racism to be a shaky cause (at best). Also, I doubt it would be pointed out as an issue had Tyre Nichols been white (why fool ourselves?)

[Pants-of-dog]

@Pants-of-dog not really. It is enough for the cops to just have acted disregarding the potential punishment they could face for beating Tyre Nichols up, along with the corresponding response by the DA office and the city, for systemic racism to be a shaky cause (at best).

Yes, that would make the argument shaky, but it would not rule out systemic racism.

In order for us to be certain it was not systemic racism, we would need to know that the cops thought they would not receive institutional support.

Likewise, in order for us to be certain it was systemic racism, we would need to know that the cops thought they would receive institutional support because Mr. Nichols was black.

These are unverifiable standards of evidence.

While we can make a logical assumption that they felt they would receive institutional support based on several lines of evidence, we have only historical evidence to indicate that the reason was race.

Also, I doubt it would be pointed out as an issue had Tyre Nichols been white (why fool ourselves?)

If you are saying that systemic racism would not have been pointed out as an issue had Mr. Nichols been white, I completely agree.

[wat0n]

Yes, that would make the argument shaky, but it would not rule out systemic racism.

In order for us to be certain it was not systemic racism, we would need to know that the cops thought they would not receive institutional support.

Likewise, in order for us to be certain it was systemic racism, we would need to know that the cops thought they would receive institutional support because Mr. Nichols was black.

These are unverifiable standards of evidence.

While we can make a logical assumption that they felt they would receive institutional support based on several lines of evidence, we have only historical evidence to indicate that the reason was race.

Yet the recent history, which one would think is the most relevant, doesn't really support that idea either. That's on top of the perpetrators being African Americans themselves.

If you are saying that systemic racism would not have been pointed out as an issue had Mr. Nichols been white, I completely agree.

So, we should assume a different explanation for the same incident under the same circumstances except for the victim's race. Am I correct here?

[Pants-of-dog]

Yet the recent history, which one would think is the most relevant, doesn't really support that idea either.

Actually, the history of the Memphis Police Department (MPD) convicting cops for this kind of intimate partner murder goes back years. It us not a new thing.

So, it is not about the recent nature of this other murder but whether or not the murderers of Mr. Nichols felt their actions were comparable to intimate partner violence.

That's on top of the perpetrators being African Americans themselves.

Do you think the race of the perpetrators has an impact on whether or not this is systemic racism?

So, we should assume a different explanation for the same incident under the same circumstances except for the victim's race. Am I correct here?

Yes, we can assume a different explanation if the target of police violence is white.

[wat0n]

Actually, the history of the Memphis Police Department (MPD) convicting cops for this kind of intimate partner murder goes back years. It us not a new thing.

So, it is not about the recent nature of this other murder but whether or not the murderers of Mr. Nichols felt their actions were comparable to intimate partner violence.

Did these murders happen while the cops were on duty or they were just fired?

Do you think the race of the perpetrators has an impact on whether or not this is systemic racism?

Makes it less likely, a lot less likely actually.

Yes, we can assume a different explanation if the target of police violence is white.

Or maybe there's a good degree of arbitrariness here.

[Pants-of-dog]

Did these murders happen while the cops were on duty or they were just fired?

I have no idea. We know at least one happened while the cop was on duty.

Are you changing your argument? You were arguing that recent cases disprove systemic racism. Now you seem to be arguing that institutional support depends on whether or not the cops were on duty.

Makes it less likely, a lot less likely actually.

No, I do not think systemic racism works that way.

Or maybe there's a good degree of arbitrariness here.

No, there is a lot of historical evidence that blacks and whites have had different experiences with police.

[wat0n]

I have no idea. We know at least one happened while the cop was on duty.

Are you changing your argument? You were arguing that recent cases disprove systemic racism. Now you seem to be arguing that institutional support depends on whether or not the cops were on duty.

No. I'm simply saying that, as far as a police department is concerned, murdering for passional reasons while on duty is not fundamentally different from murdering someone due to an improper use of force.

No, I do not think systemic racism works that way.

This would presuppose individuals have no agency. This is simply not true, and in this case the officers' agency to simply not beat Tyre Nichols up was not limited in any way.

No, there is a lot of historical evidence that blacks and whites have had different experiences with police.

And yet the issue remains, i.e. if a cop uses excessive force and kills a non-hispanic white person as a result the issue is training or culture, if the victim is from some other race/ethnicity we are somehow supposed to presume it's systemic racism. I'd say it's far more likely the issue is the same in both cases, don't you think?

[Pants-of-dog]

No. I'm simply saying that, as far as a police department is concerned, murdering for passional reasons while on duty is not fundamentally different from murdering someone due to an improper use of force.

This seems contradicted by the fact that cases of intimate partner violence regularly led to conviction while the other cases never did.

This is an important distinction to make when looking at institutional support.

This would presuppose individuals have no agency. This is simply not true, and in this case the officers' agency to simply not beat Tyre Nichols up was not limited in any way.

No, it does not presuppose a lack of agency.

We agreed on this when we looked at whether or not systemic racism requires premeditation.

And yet the issue remains, i.e. if a cop uses excessive force and kills a non-hispanic white person as a result the issue is training or culture, if the victim is from some other race/ethnicity we are somehow supposed to presume it's systemic racism. I'd say it's far more likely the issue is the same in both cases, don't you think?

No, I do not think it is likely that the issue is the same in both cases.

If it had been a white man, the issue is training or culture.

If it is a black man who was killed, then it is probably the issue is training or culture as well as systemic racism.

[wat0n]

This seems contradicted by the fact that cases of intimate partner violence regularly led to conviction while the other cases never did.

This is an important distinction to make when looking at institutional support.

How many of these other cases happened, how many of them were tried and what was the outcome of each trial?

What institutional support are you exactly talking about when cops use force against their employer's policy?

No, it does not presuppose a lack of agency.

We agreed on this when we looked at whether or not systemic racism requires premeditation.

But it does in this case, since the cops acted against their employer's policy.

Tyre Nichols would be alive had the officers simply stuck by MPD policy on the use of force.

No, I do not think it is likely that the issue is the same in both cases.

If it had been a white man, the issue is training or culture.

If it is a black man who was killed, then it is probably the issue is training or culture as well as systemic racism.

Yes, it's likely systemic racism even when the perpetrators are Black, the police department is headed by an African American woman and the perpetrators acted against the department's policy. Right?

[Pants-of-dog]

How many of these other cases happened, how many of them were tried and what was the outcome of each trial?

I am not sure. I read these cases on another computer, so I cannot bring up the information right now.

What institutional support are you exactly talking about when cops use force against their employer's policy?

I have no idea what you are referring to.

I am discussing police not charging or convicting ome of their own when they engage in lethal abuse against black people while performing their duties.

But it does in this case, since the cops acted against their employer's policy.

Tyre Nichols would be alive had the officers simply stuck by MPD policy on the use of force.

and the perpetrators acted against the department's policy. Right?

I am not discussing the formal policy.

Instead, I am talking about the systemically racist custom of providing impunity for cops who kill black people.

Yes, it's likely systemic racism even when the perpetrators are Black, the police department is headed by an African American woman ....

Yes.

[wat0n]

I am not sure. I read these cases on another computer, so I cannot bring up the information right now.

OK

I have no idea what you are referring to.

I am discussing police not charging or convicting ome of their own when they engage in lethal abuse against black people while performing their duties.

The use of force against Tyre Nichols was against department policy, as I cited earlier. Hence it's not surprising the department isn't supporting the responsible cops.

I am not discussing the formal policy.

Instead, I am talking about the systemically racist custom of providing impunity for cops who kill black people.

Irrelevant tangent. Using force against department policy can and indeed got these officers fired.

Yes.

Quote the whole thing.

[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

Please note that the MPD never convicted an officer of killing someone while disregarding that policy prior to the death if Mr. Nichols. In effect, the MPD never enforced that policy, as far as I can tell.

[wat0n]

@Pants-of-dog do you have any evidence that the MPD decided to overlook its own policy on the use of force in a similar case of an unjustified beating in recent years?

I've seen the MPD firing cops for not keeping their bodycams on even when all available evidence suggested the use of force was in fact according to policy. I'd be surprised if the same standard hadn't been applied for an even more serious violation of department policy.

[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

Well, ai have looked through pages and pages of Google searches looking for any convictions of cops who used too much violence while working. I did not find any.

Copy and paste this into Google and you will see:

memphis police officer covicted killing -nichols

Instead, it seems that the MPD did not even keep track of these things until 2019.

https://www.tn.gov/tbi/crime-issues/cri ... tings.html

[wat0n]

@Pants-of-dog it's possible that information simply wasn't public before 2019. It's hard to know, really.

But what one can say is that those cops should have expected to be scrutinized for their use of force. There was a previous Memorandum of Understanding between the TBI and Memphis/Shelby County where such investigation would start automatically if a person died as a result of police use of force while on duty.

https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/tbi/d ... 202018.pdf

[Pants-of-dog]

@Pants-of-dog it's possible that information simply wasn't public before 2019. It's hard to know, really.

But what one can say is that those cops should have expected to be scrutinized for their use of force. There was a previous Memorandum of Understanding between the TBI and Memphis/Shelby County where such investigation would start automatically if a person died as a result of police use of force while on duty.

https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/tbi/d ... 202018.pdf

It seems that there is no certain evidence either way.

I think the explanation of systemic racism provides a better explanation for more observed events than the lack of systemic racism.

Your proverbial mileage may vary.

[wat0n]

Indeed, that MOU also explains why the DA and the PD moved so quickly to request the state authorities to investigate. Interestingly, that agreement was signed by the previous DA, a Republican.

[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

That memo seems to indicate that the TBI did not even investigate deaths at the hands of police officers until late 2018.

This dovetails with the theory that systemic racism and police brutality are only recently being addressed.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

That memo seems to indicate that the TBI did not even investigate deaths at the hands of police officers until late 2018.

This dovetails with the theory that systemic racism and police brutality are only recently being addressed.

That's not what it says. What the MOU says is that the DA's office commits to automatically ask the TBI to investigate, before that it was up to the DA's discretion.

It seems that even when DAs do what you proposed (commit to investigate deaths at the hand of police) you've got a problem with it. Also, it's unlikely these cops were unaware of this agreement.