The Police Murder of Tyre Nichols - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15263248
This killing exposes the filthy lies of the Cultural Marxist liberal media. These killings have nothing to do with current White Supremacist racism. Of course America has massive social structural problems. The deep problems of every part of the American justice system are a symptom of those massive social structural problems. And undoubtedly America as it is today is a product of its past, its history of slavery, Jim Crow apartheid system and endemic past racism.

The US is arguably the most successful country in the history of the world, but it is also a country that is fundamentally and quite probably irretrievably broken. However The grandiose narratives of Cultural Marxism, political correctness, oppression theory, intersectionality, wokeness, call it what you will, not only will not fix America's problems, they will and do exacerbate them.

In particular the grandiose narrative of endemic White Supremacist racism, needs to be recognised for what it is, narcissism. Just narcissus at the social scale. Fixing America's problems is not glamorous, its far too unglamorous for America's liberal elite who pour out of America's top universities. No they expect to have live lives of immense privilege, but also want a simplistic grandiose moral narrative, in which they can be heroes and heroines.
Last edited by Rich on 28 Jan 2023 11:04, edited 1 time in total.
#15263253
I knew idiots like Istanbuller would have a field day with a black man being murdered by black cops.

The funny thing is, no matter how hard they argue the point that in this one specific case it was a black man being murdrered by other black people, you know they supported the systemic racism that made this possible before. And every time it wasn't a black cop, they thought it was just as cool and good that the police murdered a black person.

Now, let's get off to the races for the next 40 pages where we repeat to our forums' dumbest posters that it's possible for a system to be racist and oppressive through the use of violence, and that people from the group being oppressed will join it because that's how power structures reinforce themselves. Let's really be good faith about this to the dumbest people on these forums who are having a good laugh about black on black violence because they honestly find it funny and good.
#15263258
Only idiots think ones demographic 100% correlates to political and ideological content. It’s why black Americans often say not all skin folk are kin folk, have terms like Uncle Tom and how poor Americans who support policies for the rich and lack a class rationality are made fun of. It’d be like thinking that there isn’t sexism in a society where women practice FGM upon their daughters.

Shit I got a who is half jamaican brother inlaw who specifically talks about almost being killed by cops with no sense of proper gun control because of a vague report of a robbery in the suburb when he was waking home from a party, was right outside his house and the black cop of the group was the biggest asshole about it. He then had to do a massive run around after the rookie cop pointed a gun at his head the whole time after being locked up, contacting his superiors in the military where he went through the insanity of not being allowed to walk to his own house which he was in front of, go to the cop shop be released because he wasn't under arrest and then wake up someone to pick him up from the police station without any police report stating why he was there and all sorts of bullshit.

One leaves implicit the content and norms of an institution by simply focusing on the apparent dissonance that somehow a black person can’t similarly participate in white supremacy because they must automatically hold objective interests for their race as a class and are a monolith.
Last edited by Wellsy on 29 Jan 2023 03:10, edited 2 times in total.
#15263271
Rich wrote:
This killing exposes the filthy lies of the Cultural Marxist liberal media. These killings have nothing to do with current White Supremacist racism.



Incorrect.

Let's go back to before there was police, before European racism justifying slavery. The nobility maintained order, and they did it violently.

Police did the same thing, which is one part of the problem. Police weren't crime solvers, they weren't professionals serving the community. They were there to keep a boot on the neck of anyone that wasn't mid or upper class.

Southern culture (which has spread out of the South) is medieval. It's about the violent maintenance of order.

America has been working to develop policing that is modern, professional, and there to serve everyone for over a century. While there has been a lot of improvement, we're still a long way from done.
#15263292
SpecialOlympian wrote:I knew idiots like Istanbuller would have a field day with a black man being murdered by black cops.

The funny thing is, no matter how hard they argue the point that in this one specific case it was a black man being murdrered by other black people, you know they supported the systemic racism that made this possible before. And every time it wasn't a black cop, they thought it was just as cool and good that the police murdered a black person.

Now, let's get off to the races for the next 40 pages where we repeat to our forums' dumbest posters that it's possible for a system to be racist and oppressive through the use of violence, and that people from the group being oppressed will join it because that's how power structures reinforce themselves. Let's really be good faith about this to the dumbest people on these forums who are having a good laugh about black on black violence because they honestly find it funny and good.


So these are self hating Blacks or what?

How are there any Black cops to begin with?

Wellsy wrote:Only idiots think ones demographic 100% correlates to political and ideological content. It’s why black Americans often say not all skin folk are kin folk, have terms like Uncle Tom and how poor Americans who support policies for the rich and lack a class rationality are made fun of. It’d be like thinking that there isn’t sexism in a society where women practice FGM upon their daughters.

Shit I got a brother inlaw who specifically talks about almost being killed by cops with no sense of proper gun control because of a vague report of a robbery in the suburb when he was waking home from a party, was right outside his house and the black cop of the group was the biggest asshole about it.

One leaves implicit the content and norms of an institution by simply focusing on the apparent dissonance that somehow a black person can’t similarly participate in white supremacy because they must automatically hold objective interests for their race as a class and are a monolith.


So then how did these guys become cops in the first place?

That's the part you don't seem to be getting but Istanbuller might.

SpecialOlympian wrote:Cops were and are the dumbest shit heel blue collar morons until they unionized and took over like 75% of every city's budget.


And also explains why it's so hard to keep them in check. One example of many of how unions aren't always good for society at large and how they fundamentally care about their own interests.
#15263299
wat0n wrote:So these are self hating Blacks or what?

How are there any Black cops to begin with?

So then how did these guys become cops in the first place?

That's the part you don't seem to be getting but Istanbuller might.

Why would self hate be required? People can act in a way that isn’t part of some shared interest or even antagonistic to the interest of others if they sense some sort of gain. Everyone sells everyone else down the river, especially as there is no basis to assume blackness requires solidarity by existing.

But somehow the cops being black negates the institutional character and criticism of policing in the US as white supremacist, which is as stupid as thinking a woman can’t similarly maintain sexist standards that hurt women and participate in such institutions. Or somehow a worker can’t be a bootlicker for capitalist hegemony.

The better criticism comes from the concern of a paternalism from those who assert to know best for others, but such a paternalism isn’t necessary but neither is accepting the political or ideological views of a person based on their demographic. Being black doesn’t grant one radical politics nor does being a worker automatically make one anticapitalist. It is also the case that many may not have reflected or engaged with a subject that makes them critical of the status quo such that one does not have to defer to them because bring black means they know better.
https://eprints.leedsbeckett.ac.uk/id/eprint/555/7/Blackledge%20on%20MacIntyre%20for%20ACPQ%20Submitted%20Version.pdf
So while Lukács distanced his ideas from those sectarians who deified the party as ‘the representative of the ‘unconscious’ masses’, he did so without flipping over into the opposite error of embracing a simplistic deification of spontaneity.70 Thus his use of the most contentious term in History and Class Consciousness: ‘imputed consciousness’.71 While often presented as the means through which he did deify the party, this term is best understood as the corollary of Marx’s essentialist model of social class.72 Far from allowing Lukács to slip back towards a form of dualism, it opened a space within which he was able to conceptualise socialist political intervention within the class struggle in a non-emotivist but yet activist way by means of the generalisations about class interests that could be made on the basis of the history of workers’ struggles. For instance, to say that workers have an objective interest in challenging racism even in the absence of an anti-racist movement does not imply imposing the idea of anti-racism onto the working class. Rather, it functions as a generalisation about objective interests made on the basis of previous moments of struggle. This way of thinking about politics opens the door to an interventionist conception of political leadership that escapes the emotivist substitutionism of self-appointed vanguards without liquidating the left into a (retreating) movement.73

https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/SP-talk.htm
Here a little dialectics is necessary. Class consciousness means a social class, sharing common conditions of life, and a social movement organised around a demand for justice and a vision of the future. But these two entities are never actually identical. Class consciousness is the unity of two opposites which are never absolutely identical.

https://www.scienceopen.com/document_file/ea135721-2c5a-4543-bac9-1f941b0f0c41/ScienceOpen/workorgalaboglob.8.1.0069.pdf
However, since classes are aggregations of individuals, these pro-capital and pro-labour rationalisations can exist and become manifest only in and through individuals, i.e. through specific, unique individual conceptualisations. Then, in principle, each individual internalises in his or her own way the rationality and interests of the class to which he or she belongs. But, through interaction with other individuals as carriers
of other, opposite rationalities and interests, each individual can internalise different and opposite rationalities and interests. Thus, individuals give their own specific form to conflicting rationalities. Some of these cognitions can be consistent with, and some can be opposite to, the interests and rationality of the class to which an individual belongs objectively. The outcome is a kaleidoscope of depictions of reality, each with its own contradictory class content.


Also we mustn’t take policing as an institution too abstractly when it is characterized by white supremacy. This isn’t all policing is as an institution and such a view flattens it out as there can be competing interests to what is implemented in institutional practices.

Think of a state where it might have some policies that seem progressive during a conservative government being in power like say universal healthcare but the public resists strongly any effort to undermine it. They may wish to change something but others stop them. Or in a school admins pushing something and win against the interests of teacher who do not unify against admins policies. Institutions have many actors within them of varying interests and influence. Some join together and some form the dominant force in an institution in setting its norms and practices and are influenced by others as institutions aren’t islands and neither are people within them.

Would policing as an institution which crushes workers or kills members in communities seen as dangerous somehow bar black americans from being hired?
They probably differentiate themselves the same way many cops in general do, criminals are bad. But cops often have terrible ideas of what constitutes a criminal and warrants certain levels of force and end up just legitimized violence not necessarily in defense of the public but often directed against it. I have seen way too many cases of extreme force killing someone and its way out of proportion to the situation and have people defend what looks simply like murder because they’re cops. Police violence is sometimes not even described as violence since it is normative.

All this doesn’t require that police don’t catch messed up criminals, but catching criminals doesn’t negate problems associated with police either where one poses to ideas or qualities abstractly against one another.

And in other news they’re trying to create a cop city in Atlanta which has been creating conflict among the public.
#15263301
Wellsy wrote:Why would self hate be required? People can act in a way that isn’t part of some shared interest or even antagonistic to the interest of others if they sense some sort of gain. Everyone sells everyone else down the river, especially as there is no basis to assume blackness requires solidarity by existing.

But somehow the cops being black negates the institutional character and criticism of policing in the US as white supremacist, which is as stupid as thinking a woman can’t similarly maintain sexist standards that hurt women and participate in such institutions. Or somehow a worker can’t be a bootlicker for capitalist hegemony.


If systemic racism is the most relevant explanation for this incident, why were these Black cops allowed to join the police force to begin with?

Does it make sense to think these cops are individually bigoted against Blacks as a likely cause? Maybe they are, but it seems it would need to be proven.

Wellsy wrote:The better criticism comes from the concern of a paternalism from those who assert to know best for others, but such a paternalism isn’t necessary but neither is accepting the political or ideological views of a person based on their demographic. Being black doesn’t grant one radical politics nor does being a worker automatically make one anticapitalist. It is also the case that many may not have reflected or engaged with a subject that makes them critical of the status quo such that one does not have to defer to them because bring black means they know better.
https://eprints.leedsbeckett.ac.uk/id/eprint/555/7/Blackledge%20on%20MacIntyre%20for%20ACPQ%20Submitted%20Version.pdf

https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/SP-talk.htm

https://www.scienceopen.com/document_file/ea135721-2c5a-4543-bac9-1f941b0f0c41/ScienceOpen/workorgalaboglob.8.1.0069.pdf


Also we mustn’t take policing as an institution too abstractly when it is characterized by white supremacy. This isn’t all policing is as an institution and such a view flattens it out as there can be competing interests to what is implemented in institutional practices.

Think of a state where it might have some policies that seem progressive during a conservative government being in power like say universal healthcare but the public resists strongly any effort to undermine it. They may wish to change something but others stop them. Or in a school admins pushing something and win against the interests of teacher who do not unify against admins policies. Institutions have many actors within them of varying interests and influence. Some join together and some form the dominant force in an institution in setting its norms and practices and are influenced by others as institutions aren’t islands and neither are people within them.

Would policing as an institution which crushes workers or kills members in communities seen as dangerous somehow bar black americans from being hired?
They probably differentiate themselves the same way many cops in general do, criminals are bad. But cops often have terrible ideas of what constitutes a criminal and warrants certain levels of force and end up just legitimized violence not necessarily in defense of the public but often directed against it. I have seen way too many cases of extreme force killing someone and its way out of proportion to the situation and have people defend what looks simply like murder because they’re cops. Police violence is sometimes not even described as violence since it is normative.

All this doesn’t require that police don’t catch messed up criminals, but catching criminals doesn’t negate problems associated with police either where one poses to ideas or qualities abstractly against one another.

And in other news they’re trying to create a cop city in Atlanta which has been creating conflict among the public.


None of these have to do anything with the farcical nature of claiming systemic racism as an explanation for any and all societal ills.

In this case, at least, the cops are being charged and will face trial, despite police unions. This is a good thing.
#15263306
wat0n wrote:If systemic racism is the most relevant explanation for this incident, why were these Black cops allowed to join the police force to begin with?

Does it make sense to think these cops are individually bigoted against Blacks as a likely cause? Maybe they are, but it seems it would need to be proven.

Is racism only when its codified into law and leads to segregation? Is that your boundary case? Racism exists institutionally when people of a demographic are entirely barred from said institution. I worry your sense of racism is perhaps reduced the psychological and misses how the culture and practice of policing and frames this as necessarily independent of it. Them being police seems more critical than their race considering many high profile examples of violent policing practices.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/01/27/killing-tyre-nichols-shows-structural-problems-us-policing
Some of the officers charged belonged to the police department’s Street Crime Operation to Restore Peace in our Neighborhoods (SCORPION) unit, which employs saturation or “flood the zone” policing, sending officers into perceived high-crime areas, who engage in aggressive, “zero tolerance,” and pretextual tactics with little oversight or apparent thought to the disruption they cause to communities.

One can abstract crime from race but policing isn’t entirely independent of its society either. If this sounds unconvincing, consider how military forms are often seen as an extension of civil society as it in distinct ways still reflects the norms and values of whence it originates.
[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil–military_relations#:~:text=Civil–military%20relations%20(Civ-,and%20leaders%20and%20the%20military.[/url]
And we know that there isn’t simply disproportion of black american deaths but it seems to be a lower threshold in which they are likely to be killed.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/21533687211047943
In a nationwide database of police killings between 2013 and 2021, I found that Black victims of police killings were overrepresented, and their White peers underrepresented, relative to the general US population. I also found that Black victims were less likely than their White peers to exhibit signs of mental illness or be armed at the scene of their killings, and more likely to flee the scene. Hispanics were less likely than Whites to exhibit signs of mental illness, but no more or less likely to be armed or flee. All the above patterns persisted even after accounting for heterogeneity by state, zip code, and neighborhood type in which fatal encounters occurred.
This study provides rigorous and compelling evidence of systemic racism in police killings across the United States. Data for this study encompassed all 50 states and the Washington, D.C. area; over 4,000 five-digit zip codes; and a mix of suburban, urban, and rural neighborhoods. Despite such geographic heterogeneity, White victims appeared to pose greater threats to the safety of police officers than Black or Hispanic victims, yet also were underrepresented in police killings relative to the general US population. Put another way, the threshold for being perceived as dangerous, and thereby falling victim to lethal police force, appears to be higher for White civilians relative to their Black or Hispanic peers. These findings are consistent with the notion of systemic pro-White/anti-Black racism in policing nationwide.


And what motivates the need to beef up policing? Simply crime or has it often been the framing of an archetype criminal, super predators and the sort. Such anxieties in America consistently reveal themselves with ‘Karens’ calling cops for no reason then assuming blackness in some spaces is a proxy for criminality and danger.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36260362/
In the United States, police are becoming increasingly militarized. Whereas the racialized nature of police militarization has been documented, the relationship between racial prejudice and police militarization is less understood. We assessed the link between racial prejudice against Black and Native Americans and police militarization at individual and regional levels. Study 1 (N = 765) recruited a nationally representative sample of White Americans and found a positive association between racial prejudice and support for police militarization. Study 2 (N = 3,129,343) sourced regional aggregates of prejudice among White Americans from Project Implicit and policing data from the Defense Logistics Agency and found that police departments in states higher in prejudice acquired greater amounts of militarized equipment. Together, these studies demonstrate that, in terms of attitudes and policies, racial prejudice predicts police militarization.

https://crimeandjusticeresearchalliance.org/rsrch/race-and-police-militarization/
Key Findings

Counties with a greater segregation are more likely to request military equipment.
Counties with African American population have an increased probability to acquire military equipment.


Recent events have placed a spotlight on the increasing militarization of local law enforcement. While ample anecdotal evidence suggests a link between race and the militarization of police, empirical analysis has yet to be performed. In this study, I find that, conditional on crime rate, the presence of a large African-American population is negatively correlated to police acquisition of mine-resistant ambush protected (MRAP) vehicles. Conversely, greater residential segregation is positively correlated to MRAP procurement. This result highlights the problem with growing segregation, in suburbs as well as urban centres, in the United States.


In regards to the explanation of this particular incident, I do wonder if there isn’t something personal or if really was just targeting this guy and being pissed off that he ran off. Because its unclear why he was pulled over in the first place. As I at least speculate for clear reasons for such actions even though people may be irrational, or have a disgusting rationality. However the sort of culture and practices police increasingly engage in may present incidents like this as not significantly separate, a shocking extreme to the public but for many modern cops? Probably not.

So while this won’t give you the certainty you want, I think it more farcial to think of the US, a nation still fundamentally divided in its origins of grands ideals of freedom amidst slavery, of slave vs free states culminating in a civil war, of jim crow laws, of high segregation post civil rights and a black lives matter movement specifically about police violence as somehow a racial utopia with policing somehow above its continued problems of race. An assumed neutrality would be more probable in a nation not so fundamentally shaped by race historically and still today.

None of these have to do anything with the farcical nature of claiming systemic racism as an explanation for any and all societal ills.

In this case, at least, the cops are being charged and will face trial, despite police unions. This is a good thing.

Indeed, but still but one successful charge where I wouldn’t consider it a trend and not one reducible to their unions as police have a fundamentally different relationship to the state than everyone else.

#15263308
I think the Tyre Nichols incident and murder is about the training methods of the Memphis Police Department. Many police departments all over the USA are trained to use excessive force even for routine traffic stops. They patrol neighborhoods and get calls about break ins and other types of crime and anyone fitting the description can be a victim of violence via the cops. The problem has to do with the way the culture of policing is done in the USA.

Firearms are a problem.

In Mexico local cops here are not allowed to shoot people committing petty crimes such as theft, traffic violations and burglaries and other types of stuff. You can't even shoot someone coming into your home in Mexico. Only when your life is threatened as a civilian or defending a family member from imminent death or serious injury is it acceptable to use violence in your own self defense. Property crimes are never justified for killing people at all.

The reality that these cops killed Nichols because he ran away from an arrest over a reckless driving allegation is appalling.
I tell my older son the same thing, when stopped by cops use a soft tone of voice, show your hands and do not try to run or argue. Just keep cool and if you can record what happens then it is an advantage. But no running or fighting with cops because in the USA system you can easily be killed or beaten to death if you are Black.
#15263313
wat0n wrote:If systemic racism is the most relevant explanation for this incident, why were these Black cops allowed to join the police force to begin with?


Are you arguing that systemic racism would make it impossible for police to hire black people?

Does it make sense to think these cops are individually bigoted against Blacks as a likely cause? Maybe they are, but it seems it would need to be proven.


Even if these cops hate blacks on an individual level, there is still systemic racism.

None of these have to do anything with the farcical nature of claiming systemic racism as an explanation for any and all societal ills.

In this case, at least, the cops are being charged and will face trial, despite police unions. This is a good thing.


How does systemic racism not provide at least part of the explanation for the disproportionate amount of violence that black people deal with at the hands of police?
#15263315
Tainari88 wrote:I think the Tyre Nichols incident and murder is about the training methods of the Memphis Police Department. Many police departments all over the USA are trained to use excessive force even for routine traffic stops. They patrol neighborhoods and get calls about break ins and other types of crime and anyone fitting the description can be a victim of violence via the cops. The problem has to do with the way the culture of policing is done in the USA.

Firearms are a problem.

In Mexico local cops here are not allowed to shoot people committing petty crimes such as theft, traffic violations and burglaries and other types of stuff. You can't even shoot someone coming into your home in Mexico. Only when your life is threatened as a civilian or defending a family member from imminent death or serious injury is it acceptable to use violence in your own self defense. Property crimes are never justified for killing people at all.

The reality that these cops killed Nichols because he ran away from an arrest over a reckless driving allegation is appalling.
I tell my older son the same thing, when stopped by cops use a soft tone of voice, show your hands and do not try to run or argue. Just keep cool and if you can record what happens then it is an advantage. But no running or fighting with cops because in the USA system you can easily be killed or beaten to death if you are Black.


Indeed indeed, at its core. One of the major problems we have in the US is low quality cops and worse than that; too many of us accept and even defend low quality cops.
#15263316
wat0n wrote:If systemic racism is the most relevant explanation for this incident, why were these Black cops allowed to join the police force to begin with?

Does it make sense to think these cops are individually bigoted against Blacks as a likely cause? Maybe they are, but it seems it would need to be proven.



None of these have to do anything with the farcical nature of claiming systemic racism as an explanation for any and all societal ills.

In this case, at least, the cops are being charged and will face trial, despite police unions. This is a good thing.

Question: would these cops have treated Tyre Nichols the same way if he had been white? If the answer to that question is ‘no’, then there is racism involved here.

The thing about living in a racist society is that it gets inside people’s heads and messes with them. Even African-Americans can internalise the racism, and reproduce it in their own attitudes and behaviour. This is (one aspect of) systemic racism.
#15263319
Potemkin wrote:Question: would these cops have treated Tyre Nichols the same way if he had been white? If the answer to that question is ‘no’, then there is racism involved here.

The thing about living in a racist society is that it gets inside people’s heads and messes with them. Even African-Americans can internalise the racism, and reproduce it in their own attitudes and behaviour. This is (one aspect of) systemic racism.


They internalize racism and since they are police and want to exert authority over the bad guys who are giving them a bad name? And to make sure they exert the power they have as being part of the blue line they beat that poor kid to death. I found it heartbreaking that he called for his mother various times when he was in deep pain. She stated that she felt her stomach churning in pain acutely around the time her son was being beaten. She later made the connection that he was calling for her and she felt terrible about it.

I would never forgive those cops in a million years if it was my son they beat to death.

I watched a documentary on police trainings in many police departments all over the USA and the way the cops are trained is a serious problem. In other countries like the UK and Japan cops are not allowed to be carrying guns for routine police duties. But unfortunately in the USA there are a lot of people who possess firearms and cops often are trained to react violently to any kind of fleeing of suspects or drivers in cars. It is better to let a suspect go than to draw your weapon and wind up killing an innocent civilian or wounding some person who was driving through a stop sign and killing them accidentally.

You got to have extensive appropriate training to be a cop. Many police departments do not get decent amount of trainings. You need to communicate effectively and you need to be good at establishing long term relationships with community leaders and also learn the culture of the communities you serve. You also need long roots in the community you police. Outsiders usually are not the best cops. Long term local based cops are better but more than that? People who are very intelligent, educated, honest and not on power trips. For me the worst cops are people who are in the profession to exert power over others. You can't have that. Also people who are very dedicated to scientific approaches to law enforcement and not into bias and prejudices.

In general, policing culture in the USA is way too violent.
#15263320
Wellsy wrote:Is racism only when its codified into law and leads to segregation? Is that your boundary case? Racism exists institutionally when people of a demographic are entirely barred from said institution. I worry your sense of racism is perhaps reduced the psychological and misses how the culture and practice of policing and frames this as necessarily independent of it. Them being police seems more critical than their race considering many high profile examples of violent policing practices.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/01/27/killing-tyre-nichols-shows-structural-problems-us-policing


But in this case, Blacks are clearly not barred from policing and have not been for decades now. As such, they also participate and help shape the culture of policing.

Wellsy wrote:One can abstract crime from race but policing isn’t entirely independent of its society either. If this sounds unconvincing, consider how military forms are often seen as an extension of civil society as it in distinct ways still reflects the norms and values of whence it originates.
[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil–military_relations#:~:text=Civil–military%20relations%20(Civ-,and%20leaders%20and%20the%20military.[/url]
And we know that there isn’t simply disproportion of black american deaths but it seems to be a lower threshold in which they are likely to be killed.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/21533687211047943


What happens with encounters that did not end with a killing? The study is comparing only those who died, which is not even what you should be comparing.

Furthermore, I ignore if that DB has information on why the encounter even happened, which is connected to this point below:

Wellsy wrote:And what motivates the need to beef up policing? Simply crime or has it often been the framing of an archetype criminal, super predators and the sort. Such anxieties in America consistently reveal themselves with ‘Karens’ calling cops for no reason then assuming blackness in some spaces is a proxy for criminality and danger.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36260362/

https://crimeandjusticeresearchalliance.org/rsrch/race-and-police-militarization/


Yes, it is possible that for the same presumably illegal action someone may be more likely to call the cops if the alleged perpetrator is not white. It is also more likely that the caller will say the person more aggressive in that event, and if that happens the cops will already be primed to prepare for a confrontation. Yet I would not say this is the police's fault, and I would also not blame the cop if the call was misleading about the level of danger posed by the victim.

Wellsy wrote:In regards to the explanation of this particular incident, I do wonder if there isn’t something personal or if really was just targeting this guy and being pissed off that he ran off. Because its unclear why he was pulled over in the first place. As I at least speculate for clear reasons for such actions even though people may be irrational, or have a disgusting rationality. However the sort of culture and practices police increasingly engage in may present incidents like this as not significantly separate, a shocking extreme to the public but for many modern cops? Probably not.


It's hard to know, we'll find out in the trial.

Wellsy wrote:So while this won’t give you the certainty you want, I think it more farcial to think of the US, a nation still fundamentally divided in its origins of grands ideals of freedom amidst slavery, of slave vs free states culminating in a civil war, of jim crow laws, of high segregation post civil rights and a black lives matter movement specifically about police violence as somehow a racial utopia with policing somehow above its continued problems of race. An assumed neutrality would be more probable in a nation not so fundamentally shaped by race historically and still today.


Tell me, why is it that these incidents are as likely to happen in zip codes in areas that weren't even US territories in the 19th century as in the Deep South?

One of the studies you cited claims so. This explanation sounds suspect, unless you think all the US is the same as far as race relations go (clearly false).

Wellsy wrote:Indeed, but still but one successful charge where I wouldn’t consider it a trend and not one reducible to their unions as police have a fundamentally different relationship to the state than everyone else.



But the unions play a major role, we know that because they have the actual power to lead to chaos if the cops refuse to work.

Experiences both within and outside the US show police strikes are chaotic and costly.

@Pants-of-dog sounds like the explanation by a religious fanatic. Why don't you prove so yourself?

@Potemkin who knows? Ask them. I don't see why it couldn't have happened to a white person without connections for whom it's unlikely there would be anyone to complain.
#15263321
@wat0n

I have no idea how that is a reply to anything I have said.

Let us address one issue at a time:

Are you arguing that systemic racism would make it impossible for police to hire black people?

Yes or no?
#15263324
wat0n wrote:But in this case, Blacks are clearly not barred from policing and have not been for decades now. As such, they also participate and help shape the culture of policing.

Agreed, they aren’t barred from becoming cops but I don’t see the significance of this other than the extreme case of overt discrimination in law which largely gets eroded or reframed in more abstract laws.
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/exclusive-lee-atwaters-infamous-1981-interview-southern-strategy/tnamp/
You start out in 1954 by saying, “N*****, N*****, N*****.” By 1968 you can’t say “N*****”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “N*****, N*****.”

But such presence doesn’t negate the point that practices and institutions can tend towards white supremacy.
To try and drive home how an increase in a demographic doesn’t automatically promote their interests against dominant norms.
https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/sen-critical-voice.pdf
In India: Development as Participation (2002), Sen goes one step further as a result of his study of ‘son preference’. Son preference is the tendency of people in certain cultures to prefer a son to a daughter, resorting to abortion of female foetuses or simply neglecting the health of young girls. As a result of these practices, India and China are each ‘missing’ about 40 million women in their current populations. Sen observed that this tendency not only increases with industrialisation and rising real incomes, but increased even in those societies where women had a voice. Even educated women and women who have full control over the decision whether or not to abort a female foetus, may be active participants in exercising son-preference because they share their husband’s preference for a son.

This type of gender inequality [son preference] cannot be removed, at least in the short run, by the enhancement of women’s empowerment and agency, since that agency is itself an integral part of the cause of natality inequality. This recognition demands an important modification ‒ and indeed an extension ‒ of our understanding of the role of women’s agency in eliminating gender inequality in India. The enhancement of women’s agency which does so much to eliminate sex differentials in mortality rates (and also in reducing fertility and mortality rates in general) cannot be expected, on its own, to produce a similar elimination of sex differentials at birth and abortion, and correspondingly in the population of children. What is needed is not merely freedom and power to act, but also freedom and power to question and reassess the prevailing norms and values. The pivotal issue is critical agency. Strengthening women’s agency will not, by itself, solve the problem of ‘son preference’ when that works through the desires of the mothers themselves. (Sen 2002, p. 258.)
... the agency of women is effective in promoting those goals which women tend to value. When those values are distorted by centuries of inequality, for example yielding the perception that boys are to be welcomed more than girls, then the empowerment of women can go hand in hand with persistent inequality and discrimination in some fields, in particular ‘boy preference’ in births (with possibly brutal results in the form of sex-specific abortions). Indeed, the agency of women can never be adequately free if traditionally discriminatory values remain unexamined and unscrutinised. While values may be culturally influenced (we have provided some evidence corroborating this presumption), it is possible to overcome the barriers of inequality imposed by tradition through greater freedom to question, doubt, and ‒ if convinced ‒ reject. An adequate realisation of women’s agency relates not only to the freedom to act but also to the freedom to question and reassess. Critical agency is a great ally of development. (Sen, 2002, p. 274.)

To reflect the fact that recognition as an equal participant in the social and political life of a society still leaves the person trapped within dominant customs, beliefs and modes of living, which for example, may include misrecognition of their personality or unjust constraints on their activity, Sen introduced the term ‘critical voice’.


And I would even give the example that a black american raised predominantly among whites tends to have a complex with themselves as they do not have the community support and resources against racist bullshit that pops up. A great example in the new Bel Air show is how Will is confused and offended with Carlton being okay with some white kids he goes to school with saying the n word. Will doesn’t tolerate that shit but what Will doesn’t understand about his cousin is that he likely accepts it as an adaption to that environment. He might’ve learned that he can’t effectively challenge it or that he doesn’t have the means to change it as one person.

What happens with encounters that did not end with a killing? The study is comparing only those who died, which is not even what you should be comparing.

Furthermore, I ignore if that DB has information on why the encounter even happened, which is connected to this point below:

As in to give a picture of how often people aren’t killed by police when they’re unarmed, without a mental health crisis and such. Disproportionally I imagine many encounters don’t escalate to death but they do attract attention because its quite a severe outcome and police are given the authority to act in such a manner, and often there isn’t mere tragic circumstances but excessive force and recklessness which harkens back to concerns of what underpins such violent practices among the US police resulting in higher deaths relative to most industrialized nations.



Yes, it is possible that for the same presumably illegal action someone may be more likely to call the cops if the alleged perpetrator is not white. It is also more likely that the caller will say the person more aggressive in that event, and if that happens the cops will already be primed to prepare for a confrontation. Yet I would not say this is the police's fault, and I would also not blame the cop if the call was misleading about the level of danger posed by the victim.
even with that priming though we expect a level of professionalism in how a threat is detained and there are examples of dangerous shooters who have been successfully detained without killing them. Makes one curious why unarmed blacks might be killed relative to those who are armed.



It's hard to know, we'll find out in the trial.

It could simply be them aggro and they escalated their own situation and he ran and they just amped up en more. But such aggression still seems tied the culture of policing which has to deal with violence but increasingly examples show a lack of professionalism and deescalation tactics.



Tell me, why is it that these incidents are as likely to happen in zip codes in areas that weren't even US territories in the 19th century as in the Deep South?

One of the studies you cited claims so. This explanation sounds suspect, unless you think all the US is the same as far as race relations go (clearly false).

Why assume racism is less in the north these days? Because they were the free states? More blacks live in the south and grow up along side whites. In the north they are so segregated that they may not know any black people except the stereotypes. It’s not like you go north and its a racial utopia, shit was still nasty when the black diaspora had people moving for new opportunities and got redlined and shit.
There may be differences around racial relations, like my example above of actually knowing black people. But neither undermines the issue of racism as the south can still get ugly.

But the unions play a major role, we know that because they have the actual power to lead to chaos if the cops refuse to work.

Experiences both within and outside the US show police strikes are chaotic and costly.

Yes, unions are a means of propelling the cops to out severe political pressure on local governments as is seen with a lot of black mayors having to concede to them and even pander a little after BLM anti police sentiments snd protests. On another subject, coo city in Atlanta is such an issue of huge contention for Georgians there.
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