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#15273760
With China not caring about its relationship with Europe and siding with Russia has opened a lot of doors for Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Australia, New Zealand and perhaps others in region. While Taiwan is perhaps far fetched for now but Japan and South Korea definitely can become members within a decade, perhaps two if they wish to indulge themselves and pursue such goals. Which seems to be looking more likely by the way.

Exclusive: Japan is in talks to open a NATO office as Ukraine war makes world less stable, foreign minister says

Tokyo
CNN

Japan is in talks to open a NATO liaison office, the first of its kind in Asia, the country’s foreign minister told CNN in an exclusive interview on Wednesday, saying Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has made the world less stable.

“We are already in discussions, but no details (have been) finalized yet,” Foreign Minister Yoshimasa Hayashi said on Wednesday, speaking a week ahead of the Group of Seven summit, hosted this year by Japan in Hiroshima.

Hayashi specifically cited Russia’s invasion of Ukraine last year as an event with repercussions far beyond Europe’s borders that forced Japan to rethink regional security.

“The reason why we are discussing about this is that since the aggression by Russia to Ukraine, the world (has) become more unstable,” he said.


Ukrainians fleeing war find asylum in unexpected Asian country (June 2022)
02:59 - Source: CNN
“Something happening in East Europe is not only confined to the issue in East Europe, and that affects directly the situation here in the Pacific. That’s why a cooperation between us in East Asia and NATO (is) becoming … increasingly important.”

He added that Japan is not a treaty member of NATO, which stands for the North Atlantic Treaty Organization – but that the move sends a message the bloc’s Asia Pacific partners are “engaging in a very steady manner” with NATO.


The opening of a NATO liaison office in Japan would mark a significant development for the Western alliance amid deepening geopolitical fault lines, and is likely to attract criticism from the Chinese government, which has previously warned against such a move.

The Nikkei Asia first reported plans to open the office in Japan last Wednesday, citing unnamed Japanese and NATO officials.

NATO has similar liaison offices in other places including Ukraine and Vienna. The liaison office in Japan will enable discussions with NATO’s security partners, such as South Korea, Australia and New Zealand, on geopolitical challenges, emerging and disruptive technologies, and cyber threats, Nikkei reported last week.

In a statement to CNN last week, a NATO spokesperson said: “As to plans to open a liaison office in Japan, we won’t go into the details of ongoing deliberations among NATO allies.” She added that NATO and Japan “have a long-standing cooperation.”

CNN reached out to NATO for comment on Wednesday after Hayashi’s remarks.

Complex security situation
Russia’s invasion of Ukraine sent shockwaves through Europe and drove non-aligned Finland and Sweden to abandon their neutrality and seek protection within NATO, with Finland formally joining the bloc last month.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has been invited to participate in the G7 summit next week, said Hayashi, alongside the leaders of Canada, France, Germany, Italy, the United Kingdom, the United States, and the European Union. Zelensky is expected to dial in remotely.

“Since we are hosting it here in Japan, so we have to talk about Asia Pacific, Indo-Pacific issues too,” he said, adding that the summit location in Hiroshima — where atomic bombs were dropped in 1945 — was partly chosen because “we would like to talk about nonproliferation and also disarmament,” topics that have come to the fore during the war in Ukraine.

The war has also seen countries like Japan and South Korea draw closer to their Western partners, while presenting a united front against perceived threats closer to home.

SOUTH CHINA SEA (July 27, 2021) Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 211 (VMFA-211) conducts flight deck operations onboard the Royal Navy aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth (R 08) in the South China Sea on July 27, 2021. VMFA-211 is attached to the United Kingdom's Carrier Strike Group 21, a UK-led international strike group including support from the U.S. Navy Arleigh Burke guided-missile destroyer USS The Sullivans (DDG 68) and The Royal Netherlands Navy HNLMS Evertsen (F 805). A free and open Indo-Pacific region that is peaceful and stable is vital to ensuring greater prosperity for the region and the world.
What China really means when it talks about NATO's eastward expansion
Hayashi highlighted what he described as Japan’s “severe and complex” regional security environment, noting that in addition to increased Russian aggression, Tokyo is also contending with a nuclear-armed North Korea and a rising China.

China has been growing its naval and air forces in areas near Japan while claiming the Senkaku Islands, an uninhabited Japanese-controlled chain in the East China Sea, as its sovereign territory. In the face of growing friction, Japan recently announced plans for its biggest military buildup since World War II.

Tensions between Japan and Russia have also been increasing in recent months, fueled in part by Russian military drills in the waters between the two nations, and joint Chinese-Russian naval patrols in the western Pacific close to Japan.

In April, Russian warships conducted anti-submarine exercises in the Sea of Japan, also known as the East Sea – and in March, Russian missile boats fired cruise missiles at a mock target in the same waters. And after Japanese Prime Minister Fumio Kishida made a surprise visit to Ukraine in March, two Russian strategic bombers, capable of carrying nuclear weapons, flew over waters off the Japanese coast for more than seven hours, Reuters reported.

Despite the growing regional tensions, Hayashi said the potential opening of the office was not aimed at specific countries. “This is not intended…to be sending a message,” said Hayashi.

He added that Japan and other countries still need to cooperate with China on larger issues such as climate change and the Covid-19 pandemic, and that Tokyo wanted a “constructive and stable relationship” with Beijing.

Members of the Japan Ground Self-Defense Force disembark from a V-22 Osprey aircraft during a live fire exercise in Gotemba, Japan, on May 28, 2022.
Members of the Japan Ground Self-Defense Force disembark from a V-22 Osprey aircraft during a live fire exercise in Gotemba, Japan, on May 28, 2022.
Tomohiro Ohsumi/Getty Images/FILE
China reaction
China has previously warned against NATO expanding its reach into Asia and responded angrily to previous reports on the possible Japan office.

“Asia is a promising land for cooperation and a hotbed for peaceful development. It should not be a platform for those who seek geopolitical fights,” said Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Mao Ning in a briefing last week. “NATO’s eastward push and interference in Asia Pacific matters will definitely undermine regional peace and stability.”

Though Beijing has claimed impartiality in the Ukraine war and no advance knowledge of Russia’s intent, it has refused to condemn Moscow’s actions. Instead, it has parroted Kremlin lines blaming NATO for provoking the conflict – further fracturing relationships with both Europe and the US.

And in March, senior Chinese Foreign Ministry officials and influential Communist Party publications accused the United States of seeking to build a NATO-like bloc in the Indo-Pacific, with one official warning of “unimaginable” consequences.

On Wednesday, Hayashi played down concerns that opening a Tokyo NATO office could further inflame tensions, saying: “I don’t feel that’s the case.”

The country has had a pacifist constitution since World War II – which he argued is reflected in this move.

“We are not offending anyone, we’re defending ourselves from any kind of interference and concerns, and in some cases threats,” he said.


https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/10/asia ... 20a%20move.
#15273794
China recently spoke to your boy Zelenskyy and with that prick that leads France, so things aren't quite how you describe.

Otherwise, this is dumb. The West doing the same shit against Russia resulted in the vast majority of the world siding with Russia. The same will happen with China and its ever-increasing mates in BRICS. :D
#15273812
skinster wrote:China recently spoke to your boy Zelenskyy and with that prick that leads France, so things aren't quite how you describe.

Otherwise, this is dumb. The West doing the same shit against Russia resulted in the vast majority of the world siding with Russia. The same will happen with China and its ever-increasing mates in BRICS. :D


So Ukraine is NATOs fault? You are delusional. It is also the same reason why other countries fear China and that is why Asian states will probably join NATO in the end in a decade or two. Even more so if China behaves like a rogue state while supporting rogue terrorist states.
#15273817
JohnRawls wrote:So Ukraine is NATOs fault?

The biggest share of the blame for this awful war belongs to Russia. However both Ukraine and NATO share responsibility for their refusal to recognise Crimea as part of Russia and for their refusal to recognise the progressive role of Russia in the Caucuses, Central Asia and Syria.

However International Law is a fiction. If we really had an international law with an international police force and real world wide jurisdiction, there wouldn't have been a war in the first place. Hence punishments and compensations can not just be doled out according to our moral preferences, as if we were a judge at sentencing in a a court of Law.
Last edited by Rich on 11 May 2023 12:59, edited 1 time in total.
#15273822
I've been wondering if Asia is ready to bring back SETO.

SETO tried to be the Asian version of NATO, but China lacked the ability to project force back then. So the threat wasn't there. The countries are also quite diverse, so it's like trying to herd cats. We also were doing Vietnam back then, and a lot of countries didn't like the way we handled that conflict, and who could blame them.

Since then we've put together a number of smaller treaties and understandings, but nothing with the heft of NATO.

NATO is the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation... Asia isn't exactly close to the Atlantic. And if NATO has any interest in expanding into other regions, I am not aware of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Asia_Treaty_Organization
#15273824
late wrote:I've been wondering if Asia is ready to bring back SETO.

SETO tried to be the Asian version of NATO, but China lacked the ability to project force back then. So the threat wasn't there. The countries are also quite diverse, so it's like trying to herd cats. We also were doing Vietnam back then, and a lot of countries didn't like the way we handled that conflict, and who could blame them.

Since then we've put together a number of smaller treaties and understandings, but nothing with the heft of NATO.

NATO is the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation... Asia isn't exactly close to the Atlantic. And if NATO has any interest in expanding into other regions, I am not aware of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Asia_Treaty_Organization


We can always rename ourselves if needed to NAAPTO (North Atlantic Asia Pacific treaty organisation)
#15273825
JohnRawls wrote:
We can always rename ourselves if needed to NAAPTO (North Atlantic Asia Pacific treaty organisation)



Monkeys could fly out my butt..

They have their hands full with what's going on now. There is a less than zero chance of NATO expending outside their region.
#15273827
late wrote:Monkeys could fly out my butt..

They have their hands full with what's going on now. There is a less than zero chance of NATO expending outside their region.


I said a decade or two first. Secondly NATO is not just in Europe. United States and Canada are in North America. Turkey is in Europe/Middle East.
#15273829
JohnRawls wrote:
I said a decade or two first. Secondly NATO is not just in Europe. United States and Canada are in North America. Turkey is in Europe/Middle East.



They would have to build a navy just for Asia. That's very expensive. For the forseeable future, their budgets are going to be tight, and they've just doubled (roughly) military spending between Ukraine and building up their defenses. They would also have to expand their armies.

And then you have to ask why. There simply isn't a compelling reason.
#15273831
late wrote:They would have to build a navy just for Asia. That's very expensive. For the forseeable future, their budgets are going to be tight, and they've just doubled (roughly) military spending between Ukraine and building up their defenses. They would also have to expand their armies.

And then you have to ask why. There simply isn't a compelling reason.


We have our own Navies. American navy is the only larger navy compared to EU NATO navy. Out of world total of 30 in service "Aircraft carriers", 7 belong to non NATO members or NATO allies most of which are not even full aircraft carriers.

The major "powers" are obviously US with 12 and Europe with like 9. US is constructing or undergoing trials for 4 more. Europe is building or undergoing trials for 3 more. God knows how many are planned even.

We have plenty of Navy if we want to project in to Asia as an alliance or with allies of the alliance.
#15273835
late wrote:They would have to build a navy just for Asia. That's very expensive. For the forseeable future, their budgets are going to be tight, and they've just doubled (roughly) military spending between Ukraine and building up their defenses. They would also have to expand their armies.

And then you have to ask why. There simply isn't a compelling reason.


The US isn't the only NATO member with interests in Asia, some European countries have overseas territories in the Pacific too.

But I also don't see NATO expanding to Asia... If China invaded Japan, would France fight WWIII with China to stop it?
#15273844
wat0n wrote:The US isn't the only NATO member with interests in Asia, some European countries have overseas territories in the Pacific too.

But I also don't see NATO expanding to Asia... If China invaded Japan, would France fight WWIII with China to stop it?


The point of joining NATO makes attack on you suicidal at best. So there won't be war. As for fighting to defend Japan, sure we will fight and assist if shit hits the fan.
#15273852
JohnRawls wrote:So Ukraine is NATOs fault? You are delusional. It is also the same reason why other countries fear China and that is why Asian states will probably join NATO in the end in a decade or two. Even more so if China behaves like a rogue state while supporting rogue terrorist states.


How did you read "Ukraine is NATOs fault" from me correcting you on Chinese relations with some European states ( :lol: ) in this case, France, and how similar Western attack on China will most likely, given their relations on all continents, result in the same type of blowback as what happened when the West made war against Russia?

The vast majority of countries don't "fear China" as you claim, the vast majority of the world defends China because China trades and develops based on mutual interests and reciprocation, not in the exploitative way the U.S. Empire does, which you're projecting on China and which is precisely what's caused the majority of the world to lean towards Russia, China, BRICS, multipolarity etc.

wat0n wrote:If China invaded Japan, would France fight WWIII with China to stop it?


Given these recent meetings between the Chinese and French, I doubt it.
#15273854
skinster wrote:How did you read "Ukraine is NATOs fault" from me correcting you on Chinese relations with some European states ( :lol: ) in this case, France, and how similar Western attack on China will most likely, given their relations on all continents, result in the same type of blowback as what happened when the West made war against Russia?

The vast majority of countries don't "fear China" as you claim, the vast majority of the world defends China because China trades and develops based on mutual interests and reciprocation, not in the exploitative way the U.S. Empire does, which you're projecting on China and which is precisely what's caused the majority of the world to lean towards Russia, China, BRICS, multipolarity etc.



Given these recent meetings between the Chinese and French, I doubt it.


China betrayed Europe on the Ukranian war and will reap the consequences of its actions in due time. If they don't care that we were neutral in their conflict with the US and just wanted to trade then now there is literally no argument for being neutral while US supports Europe and China doesn't. We will fully allign with US on China after this unless nothing changes. Trade with China will be de-prioritized also probably and go more in direction of India.
#15273857
How did China betray Europe? :eh:

China tried to broker a settlement to the war, which Zelenskyy seems open to and welcomed, but he also has guns directed at his head by his masters in Washington and London.

We will fully allign with US on China after this unless nothing changes. Trade with China will be de-prioritized also probably and go more in direction of India.


I don't think that'll be China's loss :lol:, but our own.

When will dumb Europeans see that the U.S./NATO is our enemy, not China or Russia. Did the destruction of Nord Stream pipelines by the U.S., that was an attack on Germany, teach you fuck all? What about the increase in living costs such as heating? Nothing?

Westerners outside the U.S. who support NATO are the biggest cucks going...even when the org originated it was made clear by the first general secretary that its purpose was “to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down.”

Thankfully not all Europeans are cucks like some ITT. We see that with the many protests against NATO in Britain and mainland Europe over the last year. Those will only grow by the look of things, especially as heating bills expect to explode further this coming winter.
#15273863
Japan is taking a dangerous path towards becoming a military power under the new prime minister. Kishida would raise the nation's defense spending from 1% to 2% of GDP by 2027, the world’s third largest defense budget. The opening of a NATO liaison office in Tokyo suits his militarist agenda. Just as Ukraine is Asia’s problem, Taiwan is Europe’s problem, according to Kishida. NATO would end up defending Taiwan from Chinese aggression in the long run.

Image

Against this backdrop, Kishida in December unveiled Japan’s biggest military buildup since World War II, mirroring upticks in defense spending across Europe, including Germany, which like Japan was humbled by that war. The commitment would raise defense spending to 2% of GDP by 2027, giving Japan the world’s third largest defense budget. And while previous Japanese leaders dithered over imposing international sanctions, Kishida has joined U.S.-led measures with alacrity.

It’s a transformation that had long been touted by Japan’s former Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, who belonged to the same right-leaning Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) and was assassinated during a campaign stop in July. But while Abe’s hawkish reputation was divisive, Kishida’s dovish persona has enabled him to enact security reform without significant pushback.

Still, Japan’s martial resurgence isn’t without controversy. The nation has a pacifist constitution, and critics say its military buildup pours fuel on an already combustive regional security picture. And given that China is Japan’s top trading partner, it’s unclear how Kishida can fund an ambitious domestic agenda while turning the screws on America’s superpower rival, which has proved all too willing to mete out economic retribution. More fundamentally, some believe that Japan’s rearmament chafes with Kishida’s longstanding pledges to work toward a nuclear-free world. The Prime Minister, for his part, says his only goal is to prevent tragedies like Hiroshima unfolding once again: “Today’s Ukraine could be tomorrow’s East Asia.”

https://time.com/6278122/fumio-kishida- ... erview-g7/
#15273868
ThirdTerm wrote:Japan is taking a dangerous path towards becoming a military power under the new prime minister. Kishida would raise the nation's defense spending from 1% to 2% of GDP by 2027, the world’s third largest defense budget. The opening of a NATO liaison office in Tokyo suits his militarist agenda. Just as Ukraine is Asia’s problem, Taiwan is Europe’s problem, according to Kishida. NATO would end up defending Taiwan from Chinese aggression in the long run.


For a long time, that was the calculation. Higher risk and few rewards in upgrading one's armed forces rather than not. Today, everyone sees the opposite. The future will be everyone armed to the teeth, with defence industries under close control by national or regional governments.

You opened Pandora's box, m8. Perhaps we can blame the Americans first for squandering the post-Cold War world so badly, or the Brits before them, or the Romans or the Mongols perhaps. What does it matter? We are all dead soon anyway.
#15273875
ThirdTerm wrote:NATO would end up defending Taiwan from Chinese aggression in the long run.


:lol:

There is no "Chinese aggression" against Taiwan and Taiwan is Chinese territory. Stop meddling, war pigs.
#15273890
skinster wrote::lol:

There is no "Chinese aggression" against Taiwan and Taiwan is Chinese territory. Stop meddling, war pigs.


That could be the case if Taiwan wanted to unify and join China but they don't since they don't like dictatorships and the CCP in particular. Hong Kong made the re-unification impossible under the CCP.

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