[wat0n]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/transgende ... -1.6426954

Looks like adults are being targeted too.

This is an entirely different game altogether. I don't know whatever the Florida law says, but adults who want to get treatment should be allowed to even (specially) if not funded by the government.

Unlike (arguably) abortion, this clearly doesn't harm anyone else and the only reason for the state to limit those treatments would be to refuse funding if the possible negative financial consequences outweigh positive ones. Insurers wishing to fund them or just people willing to pay out of pocket should still be allowed to do so, always under medical supervision.

You never answered @wat0n’s question about whether or not you support these exact same treatments for kids who want it for reasons other than gender affirming care.

Note that Desantis and other folks banning it for trans folk allow it for cis folk.

@Godstud may confirm, but I doubt he wants to make steroid use for the purpose of exacerbating puberty legal for teens.

What's your take? Should it be legal to allow a 15 year old male with body dysmorphia take steroids to get ripped (i.e. exacerbate secondary male sex characteristics) so he can become confident with his body and maybe with girls too?

[Pants-of-dog]

Most of the political issues that DeSantis has been making policies about are a conflict of rights. Parent rights vs rights of children or teachers. Rights of trans women to use women's bathrooms vs right of cis women to be free from biological men in their washrooms. Same with the trans in women's sports debates.

Anyone can accuse you of wanting to take rights away from parents, or women, or whomever, but that's not a fair way to frame the argument nor is yours, as I've shown above.

I understand that you see it as a conflict of rights, where both parties have a logical argument.

And we could analyze each of these situations and see whether or not it has merit. And most likely, you and the others who see Desantis as just another politician concerned about kids and parents rights and women in sports will continue to support his policies no matter what I say.

Can we agree that Desantis and his policies can be framed in such a way that self declared centrists and liberals would allow him to continue his agenda?

[Godstud]

But do not let reality dissuade you from your firmly held belief that lewd things happen at all drag shows.

Children should not be exposed to ANY drag shows, regardless of who is doing them. The Bill proposed by DeSantis is not aimed at Transgender people but ANYONE(regardless of their sexuality) who would seek to do sexualized acts in front of minors. Why are you offended by this?

I understand that you see it as a conflict of rights, where both parties have a logical argument.

No, they do not. Wanting to give extra rights to minors in order to make them easier to victimize is not logical.

Can we agree that Desantis and his policies can be framed in such a way that self declared centrists and liberals would allow him to continue his agenda?

When taken at face value(and not radicalized), DeSantis policies make sense. You, and others of your ilk, see this as going to extremes, when that's not the goal.

When I read his policies I do not see problems with them, because I am not looking to further a child victimizing ideology.

[Unthinking Majority]

I understand that you see it as a conflict of rights, where both parties have a logical argument.

And we could analyze each of these situations and see whether or not it has merit. And most likely, you and the others who see Desantis as just another politician concerned about kids and parents rights and women in sports will continue to support his policies no matter what I say.

Can we agree that Desantis and his policies can be framed in such a way that self declared centrists and liberals would allow him to continue his agenda?

I mean sure, many are and will. As i've said before, I don't agree with all of his policies, and he seems to go overboard on some of them, using the power of the state too much.

I also don't know a ton about him to be honest, I don't follow him or US politics with a microscope and I don't watch FOX or MSNBC or go on twitter very much. I think some of the zanier woke policies need to be put in check, we need reasonable leaders and not ideological warriors or even "2 sides".

[Unthinking Majority]

Children should not be exposed to ANY drag shows, regardless of who is doing them. The Bill proposed by DeSantis is not aimed at Transgender people but ANYONE(regardless of their sexuality) who would seek to do sexualized acts in front of minors. Why are you offended by this?

I don't agree with sexualized acts in front of minors, it is venturing into the domain of abuse, but there is also parents rights and free speech. Like, should kids be allowed in rated R films if their parents bring them in, as is the case now? They can have graphic violence, profanity, topless women, very sexual situations and crude adult humor etc.

But then there is NC-17, which I believe bans minors even with a parent/guardian. Drag shows shouldn't be exposing children to genitals or whatever. The question is who should be deciding this: the parents or the state? What is age appropriate even talking about trans or sexual issues with minors, even in school?

I think reasonable people can debate and answer these questions fairly well. I think someone in drag is fine in front of a child if they aren't exposing themselves or overly sexualized, but sexualized content is not ok, and teaching pre-teens about drag lifestyle other than maybe "some men like to dress up in women's clothes for fun" in libraries or books is nutters, and even then....why?? Leave it for teenagers at least. The world is confusing enough for them and kids won't understand it anyways.

[Godstud]

What is age appropriate even talking about trans or sexual issues with minors, even in school? it is not a topic that needs to be discussed in schools.

Teachers are not there to teach them about gender politics, unless they are taking a specific course for it. Leave it for Universities and Colleges where they are adults.

I think someone in drag is fine in front of a child if they aren't exposing themselves or overly sexualized, but sexualized content is not ok, and teaching pre-teens about drag lifestyle other than maybe "some men like to dress up in women's clothes for fun" in libraries or books is nutters, and even then....why?? Leave it for teenagers at least. The world is confusing enough for them and kids won't understand it anyways.

Agreed. Children should be referred to their parents if they have questions about this, just as they would for questions about sex.

On the other hand, a person in drag teaching children anything is just an extra distraction.

[Unthinking Majority]

Teachers are not there to teach them about gender politics, unless they are taking a specific course for it. Leave it for Universities and Colleges where they are adults.

I don't have an issue with some LGBT and gender issues being taught at an age-appropriate grade, like 8th or 9th grade or something, and presented in a neutral non-ideological manner where the teacher is not taking a side to sway kids to one side or the other. Teachers should not be moralizing or taking stances on controversial political issues that a bunch of parents may not agree with.

Even with celebrating Pride month in schools, or taking pro-choice stances, schools shouldn't do this in public schools, there are Christian parents etc who have a right to put their kids in public school and not be morally indoctrinated by the government.

[Godstud]

I don't have an issue with some LGBT and gender issues being taught at an age-appropriate grade, like 8th or 9th grade or something, and presented in a neutral non-ideological manner where the teacher is not taking a side to sway kids to one side or the other.

I do have a problem with it. Unless they are taking a gender studies course, there is no place for it in schools. All you have to do is say, "Treat all people, regardless of sex, gender, race, religion, etc. with respect and tolerance.". If children have questions about sex/gender, they have parents who can provide those answers for them. It's not a teacher's place to impose their own opinions of gender/sex on children, when they are most vulnerable and impressionable.

Even with celebrating Pride month in schools, or taking pro-choice stances, schools shouldn't do this in public schools, there are Christian parents etc who have a right to put their kids in public school and not be morally indoctrinated by the government.

Schools should not be celebrating pride month, or being taught to take pro-choice or pro-life views.

Christian parents can put their children in Christian schools if they want to be sure. Schools should not be morally indoctrinating ANYONE. Children are there to learn information(reading/writing/math/history), not ideologies... of ANY kind.

[ingliz]

not ideologies... of ANY kind

Don't be silly.

Education is a mechanism of social control. The whole point of providing a state education is to teach kiddies their place.

"The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them, high or lowly,
And ordered their estate."

Schools should not be celebrating pride month

World LGBTQ annual spending power currently stands at $3.9 trillion (2023).

Pursuing the pink pound

Homosexuality has long been embedded in the history of capitalism and consumer society. According to an Ingenious Group marketing conference in 2006, the pink pound was already worth some £70 billion to British businesses.

[Pants-of-dog]

So we have @Godstud and @Unthinking Majority being openly supportive or at least allowing some sort of tacit consent for his policies.

@wat0n also seems to have clarified his criticism of Desantis and also has support or consent for these policies.

[Godstud]

So we have @Godstud and @Unthinking Majority being openly supportive or at least allowing some sort of tacit consent for his policies.

Yes, I support policies that protect children. You protect policies that groom and victimize children.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes, we are all very clear on the popular perception of LGBTQ+ people and their supporters being promulgated by Desantis and like minded individuals.

Have any of you seen the recent protest in support of Desantis?

[wat0n]

So we have @Godstud and @Unthinking Majority being openly supportive or at least allowing some sort of tacit consent for his policies.

@wat0n also seems to have clarified his criticism of Desantis and also has support or consent for these policies.

Will you finally answer whether you agree with allowing teenagers take steroids to exacerbate puberty?

You are at least OK with letting teens take hormones for blocking puberty so I'd like to know if it's OK to do so for doing the opposite.

[Pants-of-dog]

This entire thread has been about Desantis’s policies targeting supposedly woke people.

Thus, any mention of Desantis’s policies would obviously be referring to those, especially since they are all clearly laid out in the OP.

[wat0n]

This entire thread has been about Desantis’s policies targeting supposedly woke people.

Thus, any mention of Desantis’s policies would obviously be referring to those, especially since they are all clearly laid out in the OP.

I don't think DeSantis or any other governors allow teens to take hormones to exacerbate puberty. Indeed, the most common way to do so for males (taking steroids) is a federal felony.

So why would there be a double standard here?

You have yet to address this question.

[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n now has been provided with many opportunities to condemn Desantis’s policies towards the woke and has expressly chosen not to.

Since that is the case, we can say that he either supports these policies or minimally allows them to happen with his tacit consent.

Anyway, back to my question:

Anyone familiar with the recent pro-Desantis protests?

[wat0n]

@wat0n now has been provided with many opportunities to condemn Desantis’s policies towards the woke and has expressly chosen not to.

Since that is the case, we can say that he either supports these policies or minimally allows them to happen with his tacit consent.

Anyway, back to my question:

Anyone familiar with the recent pro-Desantis protests?

Who cares about you wanting us to condemn things?

Will you finally explain why do you have a double standard on teen bodily autonomy?

Why is it OK for a gender dysphoric teen to get hormones to block puberty but you can't clearly say if it's OK for a body dysmorphic cisgender teen to get hormones to exacerbate it?

[Pants-of-dog]

Unless there is a logical and well supported argument showing how the possible hypocrisy of a random immigrant in Canada relates to and logically justifies Desantis’s policies and their impact on his career and minorities, the question seems irrelevant. Feel free to assume I answer in whichever way best suits whatever argument is supposedly being made.

If the argument is that seeming hypocrisy on the part of people who appear to be woke justifies the support of policies like those of Desantis in the minds of centrists and liberals, I completely understand that this is a real social dynamic.

[wat0n]

Well, at least I am having trouble finding the ethical case for treating cisgender and transgender teens differently when it comes to having access to hormone treatments to address psychological conditions.

So I will ask again: Why is it OK for a gender dysphoric teen to get hormones to block puberty but you can't clearly say if it's OK for a body dysmorphic cisgender teen to get hormones to exacerbate it?

[Godstud]

@wat0n Ideologues don't like to answer or even acknowledge arguments that will destroy their feeble arguments. That is why @Pants-of-dog won't answer the question. It demonstrates clearly that he wants people who FEEL they are trans, to have more rights than other people. He's a worse hypocrite than anyone else.