[wat0n]

Kids, we simply don't know enough.

One of my pet peeves is that the safety and efficacy that is usually required of medical treatments, is incomplete.

The Right wing outrage machine has taken advantage of this. But while it's clear we can't speak authoritatively as to the best ways to proceed with sexual issues, what the Right wants to do is basically the opposite of what a decent human being should consider.

I'm prob the only guy here that has been shot full of girl hormones. It was part of my cancer treatment. It was horrible. But I can't extrapolate out from my experience, a person seeking sex change prob has low T.

This leaves me with a lot of questions for which I don't have answers.

Meanwhile, the rage rolls on, be careful.

Indeed, and that's why I don't think we can make many overarching claims about blocking puberty.

But even if it was safe, why don't we allow the opposite? That is, letting teens take hormones to exacerbate puberty and secondary sex characteristics?

Like, for example, letting scrawny, insecure cisgender male teens take steroids to get ripped.

I think this is a valid question that requires a proper, scientifically grounded answer.

[Pants-of-dog]

I believe there has already been evidence in this thread showing that hormone treatments are still legal for treatments other than gender affirming care.

[Unthinking Majority]

Yes.

Chest binders and private discussions with social workers entail no risks, while a field trip to the local swimming pool does.

Until they get bullied by other kids and put a gun in their mouth.

Please note you are arguing for the right for employees of the government to subvert parents because it aligns with their ideology. Not shady at all. Parents also have rights, but you seem to ignore them when it suits your ideological agenda.

So you seem to be arguing that Desantis is making good policy decisions that should be supported because chest binders and private discussions with social workers are a much greater evil than civil rights violations. Is that correct?

I'm arguing exactly what I'm arguing, I'm not "seeming" to argue anything. To clarify, I don't agree with a bunch of the stuff DeSantis has done. I agree with some of it though. "Woke" folks aren't wrong on every issue either. Everything isn't black and white, these are complex issues we as a society need to work through and be reasonable about them instead of retreating to our culture warrior teams on every issue.

[Pants-of-dog]

Until they get bullied by other kids and put a gun in their mouth.

Then the cause of the negative impacts is not woke, but instead is the transphobia of the bullies.

How does Desantis's support of transphobia help?

Please note you are arguing for the right for employees of the government to subvert parents because it aligns with their ideology. Not shady at all. Parents also have rights, but you seem to ignore them when it suits your ideological agenda.

No, this is a strawman.

Student confidentiality laws protect the student regardless of the ideology of whomever is involved.

If the parents were trying to convince their child that the child is transgender, and the child confided in a social worker that theu did not feel trans, the same confidentiality laws would still apply.

I'm arguing exactly what I'm arguing, I'm not "seeming" to argue anything. To clarify, I don't agree with a bunch of the stuff DeSantis has done. I agree with some of it though. "Woke" folks aren't wrong on every issue either. Everything isn't black and white, these are complex issues we as a society need to work through and be reasonable about them instead of retreating to our culture warrior teams on every issue.

Then clarify why centrists and liberals are not holding Desantis accountable for his actions, thanks.

[wat0n]

I believe there has already been evidence in this thread showing that hormone treatments are still legal for treatments other than gender affirming care.

Pretty sure they aren't if you want to exacerbate puberty for social or psychological reasons.

Steroids themselves are a schedule III drug.

[late]

Pretty sure they aren't if you want to exacerbate puberty for social or psychological reasons.

Steroids themselves are a schedule III drug.

Sex hormones like T aren't steroids. Are steroids used in this way?

[Godstud]

Student confidentiality laws protect the student regardless of the ideology of whomever is involved.

If the parents were trying to convince their child that the child is transgender, and the child confided in a social worker that theu did not feel trans, the same confidentiality laws would still apply.

Teacher and child confidentiality does NOT apply to the legal guardians of said child. Sorry.

Teachers have to share everything important with the parents, who are using teachers only as a proxy guardian while they are in their care. This does not mean that the teachers can hide things from the parents. You're pushing a fascist idea where the state can supercede the parental rights of parents, when they want to. That's dangerous.

These teachers are being sued because they over-reached their authority. If a children tells a teacher something important, the teachers are obligated to inform parents. These "confidentiality" rules do NOT apply to the legal guardians of the child, but to others, who may be seeking information. You are very poorly informed, or have misunderstood and mischaracterized what teacher/student confidentiality means.

[Unthinking Majority]

Then the cause of the negative impacts is not woke, but instead is the transphobia of the bullies.

How does Desantis's support of transphobia help?

They also commit suicide because they're confused and depressed about their identity issues The government keeping parents out of the loop of what's going on with their children is not ethical and should not be legal.

Student confidentiality laws protect the student regardless of the ideology of whomever is involved.

Cite the specific laws in the US and Florida.

If the parents were trying to convince their child that the child is transgender, and the child confided in a social worker that theu did not feel trans, the same confidentiality laws would still apply.

A child confiding in a teacher or social worker at school is totally different than purchasing breast bindings for them or allowing them to change their gender/pronouns at school without the parents' knowledge. Government employees shouldn't be allowed to subvert parents.

You only believe they should be able to do so because this example aligns with your ideological biases. Would you support conservative teachers buying MAGA hats and copies of anti-LGBT literature for your kids if they wanted it without your knowledge or consent, hmm?

Then clarify why centrists and liberals are not holding Desantis accountable for his actions, thanks.

Specify evidence this is happening.

[wat0n]

Sex hormones like T aren't steroids. Are steroids used in this way?

??

What are anabolic steroids?
Anabolic steroids are synthetic (man-made) versions of testosterone. Testosterone is the main sex hormone in men. It is needed to develop and maintain male sex characteristics, such as facial hair, deep voice, and muscle growth. Women do have some testosterone in their bodies, but in much smaller amounts.

What are anabolic steroids used for?
Health care providers use anabolic steroids to treat some hormone problems in men, delayed puberty, and muscle loss from some diseases. But some people misuse anabolic steroids.

Why do people misuse anabolic steroids?
Some bodybuilders and athletes use anabolic steroids to build muscles and improve athletic performance. They may take the steroids orally, inject them into muscles, or apply them to the skin as a gel or cream. These doses may be 10 to 100 times higher than doses used to treat medical conditions. Using them this way, without a prescription from a health care provider, is not legal or safe.

What remains legal is using hormones to let minors with some condition that leads to a hormonal disorder experience normal puberty, based on their biological sex, not using them to exacerbate puberty beyond what's normal. Teen bodybuilders who use steroids are essentially doing the latter.

On older people, like in your case, they are used to allow you reach biologically normal levels of testosterone for your sex and age.

[QatzelOk]

Again, all of the people who are claiming woke people are oppressors are supporting Desantis’s removal of rights for Blacks, trans people, gay people, drag queens, and others.

This whole thread has been about why so many people feel Desantis is justified.

No it hasn't.

I can't stand that dummy demogogue but I also find that Woke trends are destroying social capital and making people hate the left - which is a disaster. Woke-ism is what makes a Desantis possible. A real left would sweep these kinds of corporate-financed snake-oil salesmen away.

No risks? You're delusional! This kid attempted suicide two times because of this indoctrination! You have have no morals. You are so far down the Woke rabbit-hole that you've abandoned all sense.

There are no civil rights violations. You're making up lies to push your agenda...

Actually, Woke-ism is NOT pants-of-dog's agenda. It has been created by Big Money. They fund most of our social trends for reasons that they themselves know, but certainly don't reveal. And they don't care about our personal self-fulfillment or life satisfaction. They're just in it for money and control over human cattle.

And if you know anything about the scheming of Big Money... their ultimate aim is to divide the population so that it can be more easily controlled. And by giving their leftist-trend-followers silly and even dangerous "leftist" trends like *chopping off sex organs and giving experimental drugs to teenagers* - they are sure to provoke civil discord.

They also give the rightwingers dangerous trends to follow, like universal gun and SUV ownership.

Civil discord is important for Big Money. Big Money uses Civil Discord (and wars) to avoid paying enough taxes for social programs, to avoid providing compensation for groups who have been marginalized, by destroying any social capital that might be used to create real economic reality.

Pants-of-dog - and millions of others - will fall for these trends every time, but Pants and these millions of others are not the source of them. These trends are from the powers that be. They are literally killing us with trends.

(Hating Russia is another trend that we dummies are supposed to follow)

[Pants-of-dog]

Teacher and child confidentiality does NOT apply to the legal guardians of said child. Sorry.

Not according to the news articles about this story.

Teachers have to share everything important with the parents, who are using teachers only as a proxy guardian while they are in their care. This does not mean that the teachers can hide things from the parents. You're pushing a fascist idea where the state can supercede the parental rights of parents, when they want to. That's dangerous.

These teachers are being sued because they over-reached their authority. If a children tells a teacher something important, the teachers are obligated to inform parents. These "confidentiality" rules do NOT apply to the legal guardians of the child, but to others, who may be seeking information. You are very poorly informed, or have misunderstood and mischaracterized what teacher/student confidentiality means.

So, Desantis is allowed to strip kids of their confidentiality rights because you think teachers and social workers are child abusers.

———————-

They also commit suicide because they're confused and depressed about their identity issues The government keeping parents out of the loop of what's going on with their children is not ethical and should not be legal.

You did not answer the question.

The fact that Desantis is stopping these kids from getting the help they need for their confusion and depression, so how is Desantis helping the situation?

Cite the specific laws in the US and Florida.

No, it is mentioned in the articles already cited.

Desantis will probably change the law as you want though.

After all, these kids are not fully human according to all of those who are supporting Desantis on this.

A child confiding in a teacher or social worker at school is totally different than purchasing breast bindings for them or allowing them to change their gender/pronouns at school without the parents' knowledge. Government employees shouldn't be allowed to subvert parents.

Again, since none of this is permanent or risks damage, why are you supporting Desantis intruding into the private lives of these kids and their families in order to remove things like medical options, privacy at school, and the other factors that would reduce suicide and promote democracy?

Desantis is right to enact civil rights violations against trans kids because social workers respected a kid’s choices, according to you.

This is why I disagree with the notion that western democracies are somehow better at protecting rights than other countries because of voters holding politicians accountable: because centrists and liberals do not hold politicians accountable.

This thread is a good example.

You only believe they should be able to do so because this example aligns with your ideological biases. Would you support conservative teachers buying MAGA hats and copies of anti-LGBT literature for your kids if they wanted it without your knowledge or consent, hmm?

Who cares? This is an irrelevant accusation of hypocrisy.

Specify evidence this is happening.

Your own words in this thread. As well as @wat0n and @Godstud. None of you have mentioned any critics of Desantis at all.

But you also have @QatzelOk agreeing with you! That should inspire you with confidence that you have a logical and intelligent viewpoint.

[Godstud]

Since when is protecting children seen as undesirable? Only according to you, @Pants-of-dog.

So, Desantis is allowed to strip kids of their confidentiality rights because you think teachers and social workers are child abusers.

There is no confidentiality law pertaining to parents and children. Parents are not to be left out of decisions as they affect the child who is in their care. The laws pertaining to confidentiality, apply to student records. You cite NOTHING and refer to an article that states as much. The reason they CAN sue the school is because the school is not allowed to make decisions on behalf of the child without contacting the child's legal guardians.

A child is incapable of making important decisions, which is why they have parents who are responsible for them, until they can. Why is that seen as bad, to you? I don't get it. Is it because it will contradict the transgender ideology you want to push on children?

In this case, the teachers and social workers ARE child abusers, and were not acting on behalf of the child, but of their ideology.

The fact that Desantis is stopping these kids from getting the help they need for their confusion and depression, so how is Desantis helping the situation?

Stopping children from making potentially life-altering decisions for themselves is what parents are supposed to do, not delusional people, who care only for their transgender ideology, and not the welfare of the child.

But you also have @QatzelOk agreeing with you! That should inspire you with confidence that you have a logical and intelligent viewpoint.

This isn't an argument. It's a fallacy. Has your position gotten so weak that this is what you are left with?

[Pants-of-dog]

Since when is protecting children seen as undesirable? :?: Only according to you, @Pants-of-dog.

There is no confidentiality law pertaining to parents and children. Parents are not to be left out of decisions as they affect the child who is in their care. The laws pertaining to confidentiality, apply to student records. You cite NOTHING and refer to an article that states as much. The reason they CAN sue the school is because the school is not allowed to make decisions on behalf of the child without contacting the child's legal guardians.

A child is incapable of making important decisions, which is why they have parents who are responsible for them, until they can. Why is that seen as bad, to you? I don't get it. Is it because it will contradict the transgender ideology you want to push on children?

In this case, the teachers and social workers ARE child abusers, and were not acting on behalf of the child, but of their ideology.

Stopping children from making potentially life-altering decisions for themselves is what parents are supposed to do, not delusional people, who care only for their transgender ideology, and not the welfare of the child.

This isn't an argument. It's a fallacy. Has your position gotten so weak that this is what you are left with?

Again, you are completely ignoring the topic.

Desantis is using arguments like yours to take away the rights of people. And self declared centrists and liberals are applauding these removals of rights.

I bet you will go for a few more pages without mentioning Desantis at all.

[wat0n]

@Pants-of-dog I think I've said I don't like the fact DeSantis hasn't said anything about whatever he wants to do in any issue that doesn't involve the woke.

I also don't believe him on his record when he served as prosecutor in Guantanamo.

So, do you believe it should be legal to provide hormone treatments to exacerbate puberty in teens if they want that?

[Godstud]

Desantis is using arguments like yours to take away the rights of people. And self declared centrists and liberals are applauding these removals of rights.

He's not taking away any rights. That's hyperbole. He's taking away the ability for an ideological driven cult to exert its influence on children.

NAME the rights he is taking away, specifically.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Godstud

The description of civil rights attacks has already been described in the thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=42&t=183656&start=20#p15275663

[Godstud]

Yeah right... You've said nothing and you thinking that depriving drag queens of giving perverted burlesque dances in front of children is depriving them of rights. Dancing sexually in front of children is not about free speech. It's about protecting children from perverts who seek to infect them with an ideology of confusion and self-delusion.

None of this is an attack on free speech. NO ONE can expose children to sexual acts.

Gender altering care should be left for adults to do to themselves, and not for other people to fuck up the bodies of children so that they can feel better about themselves, and push their ideology.

Children do not need to be exposed to transgender ideology in schools. Period. They need to be taught reading, writing, math and history.

Everything you support is evidence of "Wokeness" gone wrong.

[wat0n]

So, do you believe it should be legal to provide hormone treatments to exacerbate puberty in teens if they want that?

Come on @Pants-of-dog, why would the ethical arguments for giving transgender teens hormones be inapplicable in this case?

If a male teen suffering from body dysmorphic disorder wants to get steroids to lift weights and get ripped, why wouldn't you grant the request?

[Pants-of-dog]

Yeah right... You've said nothing and you thinking that depriving drag queens of giving perverted burlesque dances in front of children is depriving them of rights. Dancing sexually in front of children is not about free speech. It's about protecting children from perverts who seek to infect them with an ideology of confusion and self-delusion.

None of this is an attack on free speech. NO ONE can expose children to sexual acts.

https://www.businessinsider.com/desanti ... ewd-2023-3

Lol.

Even Desantis’s own undercover cops staking out the drag shows hoping to see something stimulating were disappointed.

But do not let reality dissuade you from your firmly held belief that lewd things happen at all drag shows.

Gender altering care should be left for adults to do to themselves, and not for other people to fuck up the bodies of children so that they can feel better about themselves, and push their ideology.

Children do not need to be exposed to transgender ideology in schools. Period. They need to be taught reading, writing, math and history.

Everything you support is evidence of "Wokeness" gone wrong.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/transgende ... -1.6426954

Looks like adults are being targeted too.

You never answered @wat0n’s question about whether or not you support these exact same treatments for kids who want it for reasons other than gender affirming care.

Note that Desantis and other folks banning it for trans folk allow it for cis folk.

[Unthinking Majority]

Desantis is using arguments like yours to take away the rights of people. And self declared centrists and liberals are applauding these removals of rights.

Most of the political issues that DeSantis has been making policies about are a conflict of rights. Parent rights vs rights of children or teachers. Rights of trans women to use women's bathrooms vs right of cis women to be free from biological men in their washrooms. Same with the trans in women's sports debates.

Anyone can accuse you of wanting to take rights away from parents, or women, or whomever, but that's not a fair way to frame the argument nor is yours, as I've shown above.