[wat0n]

Oh, I bet it's super hard for political committees controlled by countries hostile to Israel to conclude Israel is the worst thing ever

[Rancid]

Genocide doesn't require killing. That is the popular understanding of genocide. However, one could argue that Israel is trying to create conditions that cause Palestinians to vacate the region. That, is actually genocide too.

At the same time, how could you even prove that is one of the goals of Israel? Currently, their only stated goal is to destroy Hamas, not the Palestinian people.

This kind of reminds me of trying to prove discrimination in the work place. It's totally plausible, but often very hard to concretely prove (which is what makes work place discrimination so insidious). The same is true here. Sure, Israel could have the secret goal of displacing all Palestinians, but it being plausible, doesn't mean they are guilty of it. so... round and round we go.

Dunno... just some thoughts.

[Deutschmania]

Mandela never made the comparison, others who fought Apartheid don't either.

From what I have read just now , Nelson Mandela never used the exact term of apartheid to describe the social conditions in Israel . However , both he and even this one Jewish associate of his , Benjamin Progrund[/url , ]have expressed criticism of Israel's treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories. So while they might not have characterized Israeli society as constituting segregation , the way that @KurtFF8 might assert , they have denounced it for its perpetration of occupation of the Palestinian population .

[url]https://www.timesofisrael.com/is-israel-an-apartheid-state-answers-from-someone-whod-know/ , https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2013/12/13/1262588/-Mandela-Israel-Apartheid-Correcting-the-Record ,
https://mondoweiss.net/2013/12/apologists-discredit-apartheid/

[wat0n]

One can criticize Israel and the occupation without thinking it's Apartheid. This all or nothing approach is nonsense.

[KurtFF8]

Interesting opinion piece in the Guardian worth reading
Stakes high as South Africa brings claim of genocidal intent against Israel

Israel’s decision to defend itself at the international court of justice will make it harder for it to brush aside any adverse finding

South Africa’s request for an interim measure by the international court of justice to prevent Israel from committing acts of potential genocide – primarily by calling for a halt to combat operations – has suddenly taken on an urgency and relevance that seemed implausible a fortnight ago.

Crack legal teams are being assembled, countries are issuing statements in support of South Africa, and Israel has said it will defend itself in court, reversing a decades-old policy of boycotting the UN’s top court and its 15 elected judges.

The first hearing in The Hague is set for 11 and 12 January. If precedent is any guide, it is possible the ICJ will issue a provisional ruling within weeks, and certainly while the Israeli attacks on Gaza are likely to be still under way.

The wheels of global justice – at least interim justice – do not always grind slowly.

South Africa’s request for a provisional ruling is in line with a broader trend at the ICJ for such rulings. Parties have been seeking – and obtaining – provisional measures with increasing frequency: in the last decade the court has indicated provisional measures in 11 cases, compared with 10 in the first 50 years of the court’s existence (1945-1995).

...

[QatzelOk]

One can criticize Israel and the occupation without thinking it's Apartheid.
This all or nothing approach is nonsense.

Question: Is Israel going to accuse South Africa of plagiarism?

Will we soon be seeing Israelis screaming "plagiarism" towards the South Africa delegation at the UN ?

"Plagiarists! They stole our apartheid concept without paying royalties to us."

[KurtFF8]

Question: Is Israel going to accuse South Africa of plagiarism?

Will we soon be seeing Israelis screaming "plagiarism" towards the South Africa delegation at the UN ?

"Plagiarists! They stole our apartheid concept without paying royalties to us."

Israel is certainly doing everything they can to reduce their own credibility. There's rumors that they may have Alan Dershowitz represent them in these hearing

[wat0n]

Question: Is Israel going to accuse South Africa of plagiarism?

Will we soon be seeing Israelis screaming "plagiarism" towards the South Africa delegation at the UN ?

"Plagiarists! They stole our apartheid concept without paying royalties to us."

Uh oh, well there have been accusations that South Africa is supporting the Janjaweed militias in Sudan. You know, those that carried out the Darfur genocide.

[QatzelOk]

Uh oh, well there have been accusations that South Africa is supporting the Janjaweed militias in Sudan. You know, those that carried out the Darfur genocide.

Any video footage of Cyril Ramaphosa sleeping with inappropriate sex partners, wat?

Or has he publicly refused to condemnTM the plagiarism of Claudine Gay?

With all the advances in spy software and surveillance hardware, it should be easy for the genocidal Israeli regime (and its true believers) to find some dirt to put on all their loyal media platforms.

[Rancid]

Alan Dershowitz

That's the same guy that visited the Epstein private island? The guy that said he went there and just got a massage?

A "massage".

[ingliz]

@wat0n

Small potatoes.

The US gave ISIS $500 million in Syria.

[wat0n]

Any video footage of Cyril Ramaphosa sleeping with inappropriate sex partners, wat?

Or has he publicly refused to condemnTM the plagiarism of Claudine Gay?

With all the advances in spy software and surveillance hardware, it should be easy for the genocidal Israeli regime (and its true believers) to find some dirt to put on all their loyal media platforms.

It seems you can't deal with the facts here, Qatz. Hemetdi is one of the top commanders of the Janjaweed, you know, those Arab militias that have been murdering as many Black people as possible in Darfur and other parts of Sudan for the last 20 years or so.

[Skynet]

Israeli minister reiterates calls for Palestinians to leave Gaza

Israel’s far-right finance minister says Israelis who would replace the Palestinians would ‘make the desert bloom’.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/ ... leave-gaza

Displacing an group based on ethnicity is genocide by international law.







Offtopic, some pro-palestine music:

[Rich]

That's the same guy that visited the Epstein private island? The guy that said he went there and just got a massage?

A "massage".

Yes a massage, what of it? The fact that Epstein used massage as way to initiate sexual relations and to initiate prostitution doesn't mean that the majority or even the large majority of his guests saw it that way. Remember that the rich and powerful men who made up most of his most coveted guests were rich and powerful. They didn't need Epstein to get sex.

Epstein was obvioulsy just the front man, presumably for Mossad, but I guess its possible he was some kind of CIA black ops. Rich and powerful men can get sex easy, what they can't get so easily is sex with silence. Epstein offered that, and sex with under age girls, with a guarantee of silence afterwards was one of the things that he offered, however I'm sure most of his rich and powerful guests would have no interest in this proposition and had the will power to resist if they did.

Again obviously Epstein's job was to get dirt on people for his Mossad handlers, but he had to be a bit subtle about it.

[ingliz]

@Rich

The English have unwittingly shafted Israel.

They submitted a brief against Myanmar in the ongoing Rohingya genocide inquiry. And it seems the ICJ has accepted their argument that children are special.

So, now South Africa is using that as a precedent and citing the English to bolster their case against Israel.

[QatzelOk]

...Hemetdi is one of the top commanders of the Janjaweed, you know, those Arab militias that have been murdering as many Black people as possible in Darfur and other parts of Sudan for the last 20 years or so...

And do you have video footage of Cyril Ramaphosa sleeping with this Hemetdi person?

Is Hemetdi under age in the country in which the illegal sex occurred?

Was Cyril Ramaphosa using drugs during this encounter? Do we have still images of this drug consumption?

Are there any images at all of this crime of passion, or do we just build our case on lies as usual?

[wat0n]

And do you have video footage of Cyril Ramaphosa sleeping with this Hemetdi person?

Is Hemetdi under age in the country in which the illegal sex occurred?

Was Cyril Ramaphosa using drugs during this encounter? Do we have still images of this drug consumption?

Are there any images at all of this crime of passion, or do we just build our case on lies as usual?

Oh, so meeting with genocidaires is fine in this case?

[Deutschmania]

Here is the latest information on the situation that I just received from my e-mail news updates .

What is the ICJ?
The international court of justice (ICJ) – not to be confused with the international criminal court (ICC), which tries individuals for war crimes – is the UN’s top court. Established in 1945, it is based in The Hague and rules on disputes between countries as well as giving advisory opinions.

It has 15 judges – which will be expanded by an additional judge from each side in the Israel case – elected for nine-year terms by the UN general assembly and the security council.

What is the case that South Africa has brought against Israel?
South Africa has accused Israel of genocide in its campaign against Hamas in Gaza, saying among other things that it has the “specific intent … to destroy Palestinians in Gaza as a part of the broader Palestinian national, racial and ethnical group”.

In its 84-page filing it also says Israel has failed to prevent genocide and failed to prosecute officials who have publicly incited genocide.

While the court decides the case, South Africa also wants it to implement a provisional measure that would oblige Israel “not to engage in genocide, and to prevent and to punish genocide”. Temporary measures such as this are meant to prevent a situation from worsening while the case is decided.

What is the legal definition of genocide?
The genocide convention, which has been ratified by 153 countries including Israel, defines genocide as “any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.”

Those acts include killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, destroying their living conditions so as to bring about their destruction, preventing them from giving birth and forcibly transferring their children to other groups.

The intent to carry out genocide is the “most difficult element to determine”, according to the UN definition.

What has Israel said about the case?
Immediately after the case was launched the Israeli foreign ministry spokesperson Lior Haiat issued a strong rebuke, calling the claims “baseless” and a “blood libel”, a reference to false accusations of murder and ritual sacrifice made against Jews.

“Israel rejects with disgust the blood libel spread by South Africa in its application to the international court of justice,” Haiat said on X. “South Africa’s claim lacks both a factual and a legal basis, and constitutes a despicable and contemptuous exploitation of the court.”

He also accused Pretoria of cooperating with a terrorist organisation in Hamas, and said Israel was “committed to international law”.

How long will the case take?
The full case, which is due to open on Thursday for two days of hearings, is likely to take years. However, an interim measure could be issued within weeks.

In order to gain the temporary measure, South Africa does not need to prove that genocide has taken place. All it needs to prove is that the court would have jurisdiction at first glance, or “prima facie”, and that some of the acts it complains of – in this case including the death toll and forced displacement of Palestinians in Gaza – could fall under the genocide convention.

Even if the court decides not to put in place an interim measure, it may still decide it has jurisdiction and proceed with the case.

Is South Africa’s case supported by other countries?
South Africa’s filing has been welcomed by the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, whose 57 members include many African and Muslim-majority countries such as Turkey and Malaysia, which have also made separate statements of support.

What significance will a ruling have?
The court’s ruling is final and cannot be appealed against. However, it cannot enforce its decisions and it is not clear that Israel would comply with it. But an adverse ruling would be detrimental to Israel’s reputation and set legal precedent. The Guardian

Perhaps the most famous court case in Israeli history was the trial of Adolf Eichmann, one of the architects of the Holocaust. Next week, more than 60 years later, lawyers for the Israeli government will again grapple with an allegation of genocide — but this time as defendants and not as prosecutors.

That grim history helps explain why Israel has chosen to engage with the International Court of Justice, which will weigh a claim by South Africa that Israel is committing genocide in its war against Hamas in Gaza. Israel is furious at the accusation, which it called a perversion of the genocide charge.

The ICJ will base its judgment on the 1948 U.N. Genocide Convention, which Israel joined almost as soon as the state was established because the convention was written in the wake of the Holocaust, in hopes of preventing another genocide.

“Israel decided to send a legal team because this is an outrageous application by South Africa and we will defend ourselves against those lies,” Lior Hayat, the spokesman for Israel’s Foreign Ministry, said in an interview.

An Israeli official on Friday confirmed that Malcolm Shaw, a British barrister with extensive experience in defending countries facing human rights abuse allegations, will be on the team.

Ynet News reported that Shaw, who has represented countries including the United Arab Emirates, Azerbaijan, Malaysia, Ukraine, Serbia, Cameroon, Ireland, Cyprus and Chad, would be one of a team of four people. (Rumors had circulated that Alan Dershowitz, the emeritus Harvard Law professor and Israel advocate with a record of representing controversial high-profile defendants, will be part of Israel’s legal team. His name was not reported alongside Shaw’s, and he did not reply to a request for comment.)

Here’s what’s behind the accusation, how Israel is defending it and what to anticipate.

Who is adjudicating the accusation, and when?

The International Court of Justice, based in The Hague in the Netherlands, adjudicates claims against states. In the past it has considered disputes on everything from maritime border disputes to the United States’ funding of the Contras rebel groups in Nicaragua in the 1980s. The court, first convened in 1946, is the culmination of a series of international conferences that aimed to adjudicate disputes between nations as a means of preventing war.

The court has previously considered cases involving Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians, the moving of the U.S. embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem and an incident in 1955 in which an El Al flight was shot down over Bulgarian airspace.

The International Criminal Court in the same city adjudicates criminal allegations against individuals, such as generals or notorious despots including Libya’s Muammar Ghaddafi and Russian President Vladimir Putin.

The case was initiated late last month by South Africa, and the first hearings are next week, Jan. 11 and 12.

Why is Israel participating?

Israel has a tradition of not engaging with war crimes accusations against its officials, in part because it is not party to the 2002 compact that created the International Criminal Court. In light of the United Nations’ repeated votes and other measures placing blame on Israel, Israel sees the U.N. system as irredeemably biased, and feels that the charges are likely to be loaded.

But Israeli officials say the charge of genocide is too much for a state born in the ashes of the Holocaust to ignore.

“The State of Israel will appear before the International Court of Justice at The Hague to dispel South Africa’s absurd blood libel,” Eylon Levy, a government spokesman, said on Jan. 2.

Beyond seeking to stake a moral defense against a crime it has prosecuted against Nazi war criminals, there are practical reasons for Israel to participate. The ICJ’s process may take years, but if after next week’s hearing it finds enough evidence to go forward, it may call on the parties in the Gaza war to cease hostilities.

Such a court order would establish a legal basis for countries to boycott and isolate Israel and to restrict the movement of its officials if Israel does not comply.

Two years ago, Ukraine sought and received a similar order from the court in its efforts to repel Russia’s invasion. But while both cases involve genocide, the Russia and Israel trials differ: Ukraine is not accusing Russia of genocide. Rather, it went to the ICJ to contest Russia’s accusation that Ukraine is committing genocide — which Putin has cited as a pretext for the war.

Russia, which is massive and has built an insular economy, ignored the order. But Israel, a small country allied with the West, can’t afford to make the same choice, said Orde Kittrie, a senior fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, a research institute focusing on national security and foreign policy.

“If Israel is ordered to do what Russia [was] ordered to do, which would be to immediately suspend its military operations, it would certainly be bad for Israel from a PR perspective,” said Kittrie, who is a law professor at Arizona State University. “You don’t want to be violating international law. You don’t want to be fighting when you’ve been told to stop.”

The Biden administration has indicated that it will not honor any injunctions targeting Israel as a result of the genocide charges. “We find this submission meritless, counterproductive, and completely without any basis in fact whatsoever,” National Security Council spokesman John Kirby said on Wednesday. Why is South Africa making the charge?

South Africa’s government sees itself as a bulwark against what it casts as western imperialism. It also wants to push back against perceptions in the West that, since the end of apartheid in the early 1990s, it has devolved into corruption, authoritarianism and alliances with repressive regimes.

In 2017, it ignored an ICC warrant for the arrest of then-Sudanese president Omar al-Bashir on genocide charges, allowing him to enter the country.

In addition to the genocide accusation, it has embraced charges that Israel is guilty of apartheid, the crime of institutionalized racial discrimination that was South Africa’s hallmark under white minority rule for decades. Its leaders have never forgiven Israel for cozying up to the apartheid regime. Its parliament in November, in a non-binding vote, said the government should expel Israeli diplomats.

“South Africa has been engaged on the Palestinian issue since really the end of apartheid and the founding of the state,” Michael Walsh, a visiting scholar at the University of California Berkeley, told Vox. “It’s been a prominent issue in South African politics and among South African leaders.” .... What will Israel’s case be?

Kittrie said Israel will be able to show it has instituted mitigation measures in its military campaign.

“Israel’s extensive advance warning and other measures to mitigate harm to Gaza civilians make clear that Israel’s goal is not to commit genocide but, far from it, to instead minimize Palestinian civilian casualties while lawfully exercising Israel’s rights to rescue its hostages, apprehend the Oct. 7 perpetrators, and ensure that Israel’s population is secure from further attacks,” he said.

Israeli spokespeople have also suggested that Israel will seek to turn the tables, and level charges of genocide against Hamas.

“The Hamas terrorist organization — which is committing war crimes, crimes against humanity and sought to commit genocide on 7 October — is responsible for the suffering of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip by using them as human shields and stealing humanitarian aid from them,” the Foreign Ministry’s Hayat said in a statement. Jewish Telegraphic Agency

[wat0n]

So the ICJ will respond on whether it will issue provisional measures against Israel on Friday.

Any takers? Honestly, I thought the ICJ would try to stall as much as possible. But now that it won't, I can imagine the Court ordering Israel to at least send more aid, by airdrops if necessary. I don't know if it will order Israel to do more than that, like ceasing all offensive operations or withdrawing from Gaza, or if it would do so but only if Hamas ceases hostilities, or if it would order Israel to cease offensive operations in some parts of Gaza and not others or if it would order Israel to prepare the return of the population from Gaza City since it's under its control.

I don't think the ICJ will say no provisional measures are necessary, though.

I also have no idea of what will the vote be. When the ICJ ordered Russia to stop military operations in Ukraine on March 2022, the vote was 13-2 but then again this situation isn't really the same.

[QatzelOk]

...“The Hamas terrorist organization — which is committing war crimes, crimes against humanity and sought to commit genocide on 7 October — is responsible for the suffering of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip by using them as human shields and stealing humanitarian aid from them,” the Foreign Ministry’s Hayat said in a statement. Jewish Telegraphic Agency...

The lies are bold and huge from many commercial news sources. "Hamas trying to commit genocide" with rockets and a few commandos? Genocide requires a sustained military violence over the course of years and years. And it requires up-to-date military hardware and thousands upon thousands of hate-filled colonists with modern weapons.

Israel has possessed the hardware and the "social narrative" to commit genocide against the Palestinians for the last 75 years, but it also possesses enough media to control the narrative with blatant lies and thus "get away" with genocide by keeping it out of the public eye.

Internet killed Israeli PR