US Presidential election 2024 thread. - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15303676
It's common knowledge anyway that patricians always manipulate (the institutions of) the republic, which is one of the primary reasons that a republic always goes into crisis sooner or later. If that is a so-called conspiracy theory, then no wonder that Trump is still popular and dangerous and even Geert Wilders can be the next prime minister of the Netherlands.
Last edited by Beren on 06 Feb 2024 19:02, edited 1 time in total.
#15303677
Beren wrote:Is it really a blasphemy on PoFo that politics is very much about conspiracies and power plays within the ruling class? :eh:


In a constitutional regime politics is about procedures. In the US they are not just window-dressing.
#15303679
late wrote:There are a lot of power groups, and they fight with each other, and sometimes they form alliances.

The Military Industrial Complex has a long standing alliance that is prob permanent with Big Ag. For no good reason, the Ag Dept cuts all the payroll checks. So if Congress tried to really audit the military, suddenly there is a technical problem, and everyone in Congress doesn't get their paycheck.

There are a ton of players, Billionaires have an absurd amount of power, they can afford it. Banks, Wall St, manufacturing, mining, and a thousand others have varying degrees of influence.

One of the reasons people that understand this keep hammering on income inequality is that this is corruption, and it's getting worse.


How this is any different compared to history of democracy? The whole idea of democracy is to manage those interests.
#15303680
Rugoz wrote:In a constitutional regime politics is about procedures. In the US they are not just window-dressing.

They're not just window-dressing, so they can't be completely neglected, but those procedures also take place in a political environment defined by a power structure. Or do you actually believe that being constitutional makes a political system that much independent from the actual power relations within society?
#15303681
JohnRawls wrote:
How this is any different compared to history of democracy? The whole idea of democracy is to manage those interests.



Because the tail is wagging the dog.

https://www.amazon.com/Price-Inequality-Divided-Society-Endangers/dp/0393345068/ref=sr_1_4?crid=S239POJUCHL7&keywords=stiglitz&qid=1707246906&sprefix=stiglitz+%2Caps%2C112&sr=8-4
#15303682
#15303684
JohnRawls wrote:
The tail has always been wagging the dog.



TR busted the trusts, and FDR helped the little guy.

We've been here before, the question is whether we are too far gone to fix it.
#15303688
late wrote:TR busted the trusts, and FDR helped the little guy.

We've been here before, the question is whether we are too far gone to fix it.


The little guy is the largest part of the tail.
#15303691
late wrote:"We, the people" are the dog..


We the people are an interest group or more precisely interest groups plural. We are not a monolith.
#15303692
JohnRawls wrote:
We the people are an interest group or more precisely interest groups plural. We are not a monolith.



Take the current mess at the border, most want some sort of reform. We don't want it used by a sleazebag to dupe the gullible.

The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts..
#15303693
late wrote:Take the current mess at the border, most want some sort of reform. We don't want it used by a sleazebag to dupe the gullible.

The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts..


You don't vote on an issue but you vote for a package in US politics. Apparently it is not the most important issue when the votes were cast last time for the senate/congress.
#15303694
Beren wrote:They're not just window-dressing, so they can't be completely neglected, but those procedures also take place in a political environment defined by a power structure. Or do you actually believe that being constitutional makes a political system that much independent from the actual power relations within society?


I certainly do not think "actual power relations within society" can be ignored, but describing it as "conspiracies and power plays within the ruling class" is silly GoT nonsense.
#15303696
I hope to hear of Biden and Trump's deaths so they can get someone who isn't on the cusp of death to be President. Maybe someone who is a bit competent might be nice, too.
#15303698
Rancid wrote:I hope to also hear of Trump's death.

Where are the MAGA morons in this thread?


You love Trump. Admit the truth.

if Trump spoke Arabic his irritating ways would not change much.

Lol.

#15303714
Rugoz wrote:I certainly do not think "actual power relations within society" can be ignored, but describing it as "conspiracies and power plays within the ruling class" is silly GoT nonsense.

GoT means Game of Thrones? Never watched it.

However, where there are people with power and power relations, there always are conspiracies and power plays among them as well by definition, even if it sounds silly GoT nonsense to you. No constitution in the world can spare you from that.
#15303715
Beren wrote:GoT means Game of Thrones? Never watched it.

However, where there are people with power and power relations, there always are conspiracies and power plays among them as well by definition, even if it sounds silly GoT nonsense to you. No constitution in the world can spare you from that.


Political power plays within a constitutional framework are not conspiracies.

Clearly you were insinuating that there are rich people/corporations outside the political system pulling the strings. Basically, like all conspiracy theorists, you want to put a face on things.

Money matters, in particular in the US, and donors have different political preferences than voters, but it matters on aggregate, and small donors aren't necessarily more in line with what voters want. In fact the rise of the small donors probably led to more radicalism on both sides.
#15303719
Rugoz wrote:Political power plays within a constitutional framework are not conspiracies.

Clearly you were insinuating that there are rich people/corporations outside the political system pulling the strings. Basically, like all conspiracy theorists, you want to put a face on things.

Money matters, particularly in the US, and donors have different political preferences than voters, but it matters on aggregate, and small donors aren't necessarily more in line with what voters want. The rise of the small donors probably led to more radicalism on both sides.


@Rugoz You might think small donors or corporations just create more radicalism. It does not. What is problematic is INDIFFERENCE. People who never register to vote. People who are eligible to vote can make a difference and do not ever take either the time, the effort, or the money to put their political desires into action. The vast majority of people are good people. They get up in the morning and work hard all day. They take care of their children, their spouses, and their families. They contribute to their native societies all day and for years. The big mistake they make is sitting on their ass politically. They say, 'One vote won't make a difference. My vote does not count. My voice is shit. I do not have money. I am an average grunt. I do not have any role to play in this thing called democracy or this thing called civic government. My voice is one among millions. It won't matter. I don't matter. It is too much work to fight with registration documents, and going and pulling a lever. I am tired. Another damn task in my day I have to do. Who cares?'

Those are the people that doom it all. Indifference is what most of the problem is about. Because I am certain that most people have an innate sense of justice. Most human beings are not radically dedicated to hating anyone in particular, nor are they into being racist, or any of that. What they are? Are indifferent.

That KILLS it all. You can't be indifferent to politics. It will make the majority of humanity lose out on what the true nature of life in politics is about. Most people want what is fair and just. The criminals, the powerfully greedy, the egomaniacs in politics, they all are MINORITIES. But they tend to step into spaces that are not occupied by the people who are affected the most by the bad policies. Lack of action is the problem. It always has been.

So many people are good people. But as that old saying goes, 'in order for evil to triumph, all it takes is a lot of good people to not take action.' That is the truth. Sit on your ass. Let evil triumph. Because a bunch of people all taking action in solidarity and with love and caring behind them? The evil does not have a chance at all. It never did. Inaction. Indifference.

That is true in war, true in life. Remain on the sidelines and the power vacuum is occupied by the worst of humanity. Who do have the will to impose their evil shit on the rest. The ones who are just indifferent? Give it all up to those type of people by their neglect and inability to mobilize.
#15303722
Tainari88 wrote:@Rugoz You might think small donors or corporations just create more radicalism. It does not. What is problematic is INDIFFERENCE. People who never register to vote. People who are eligible to vote can make a difference and do not ever take either the time, the effort, or the money to put their political desires into action. The vast majority of people are good people. They get up in the morning and work hard all day. They take care of their children, their spouses, and their families. They contribute to their native societies all day and for years. The big mistake they make is sitting on their ass politically. They say, 'One vote won't make a difference. My vote does not count. My voice is shit. I do not have money. I am an average grunt. I do not have any role to play in this thing called democracy or this thing called civic government. My voice is one among millions. It won't matter. I don't matter. It is too much work to fight with registration documents, and going and pulling a lever. I am tired. Another damn task in my day I have to do. Who cares?'

Those are the people that doom it all. Indifference is what most of the problem is about. Because I am certain that most people have an innate sense of justice. Most human beings are not radically dedicated to hating anyone in particular, nor are they into being racist, or any of that. What they are? Are indifferent.

That KILLS it all. You can't be indifferent to politics. It will make the majority of humanity lose out on what the true nature of life in politics is about. Most people want what is fair and just. The criminals, the powerfully greedy, the egomaniacs in politics, they all are MINORITIES. But they tend to step into spaces that are not occupied by the people who are affected the most by the bad policies. Lack of action is the problem. It always has been.

So many people are good people. But as that old saying goes, 'in order for evil to triumph, all it takes is a lot of good people to not take action.' That is the truth. Sit on your ass. Let evil triumph. Because a bunch of people all taking action in solidarity and with love and caring behind them? The evil does not have a chance at all. It never did. Inaction. Indifference.

That is true in war, true in life. Remain on the sidelines and the power vacuum is occupied by the worst of humanity. Who do have the will to impose their evil shit on the rest. The ones who are just indifferent? Give it all up to those type of people by their neglect and inability to mobilize.


In a lot of cases your voting participation is heavily depepdent on your subjective opinion of the democratic process. People who constantly say that nothing changes, democracy doesn't exist and corporations rule everything etc are primarily responsible for lower voter turnout actually. Well that and general easiness to vote which is mostly related to basic needs fulfilment which is a 0 problem in Western countries.

The too long don't wanna write more is that people that/who chiefly wine about democracy are the primary factors that persuade people not to vote unless you live in a dictatorship or autocracy where such stance is by default BY DESIGHN like in Russia so its easier to forge elections without much fuss.
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