US Presidential election 2024 thread. - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15303724
JohnRawls wrote:In a lot of cases your voting participation is heavily depepdent on your subjective opinion of the democratic process. People who constantly say that nothing changes, democracy doesn't exist and corporations rule everything etc are primarily responsible for lower voter turnout actually. Well that and general easiness to vote which is mostly related to basic needs fulfilment which is a 0 problem in Western countries.

The too long don't wanna write more is that people that/who chiefly wine about democracy are the primary factors that persuade people not to vote unless you live in a dictatorship or autocracy where such stance is by default BY DESIGHN like in Russia so its easier to forge elections without much fuss.


@JohnRawls the reality is that most people really do not want to become involved in many things they consider 'controversial'. Authority figures tell them one thing. The media says another thing.

I used to teach government classes to adults. Mostly young people from the ages of 18-24. It was interesting. Many of them never understood government or how it worked in the United States until they took a required class like Government 101. I taught that basic class for a year. I was surprised at the amount of young people entering college for the first time who would tell me, 'I never understood what the purpose of having checks and balances were about in the USA.' They never really understood how their own government worked. There was a piece on Political Action Committees. PACs.

They were fascinated by how that worked. They were interested in why there was a separation between church and state. How it was written into the US Constitution. Why? They wanted to know the whys of it all. Why this or why that?

No one took the time to explain that to them until they took the Government 101 in college. I asked them, 'what did you learn in high school?'. Government and civics is an elective in many high schools. It never used to be. So you have now some electives like 'tennis 101', 'Cheerleading 101', 'Chess Club' and so on that you take instead of Government. Government sounds BORING to these teens. So they choose not to take it in high school. They never learn anything about social science or government as a consequence. In many high schools you do not have to take any foreign languages in high school. In Colorado if you did not take at least three years of a foreign language in high school, you can still get your high school diploma, you can go on to a vocational school or a community college and get an associate's degree or graduate as an auto mechanic, a welder, etc without ever studying either government, civics, history, social studies or a foreign language.

In college you have to take three years of foreign language if you never took any in high school. But high school in the USA for foreign language study is very weak in general. Often you can't get one teacher who is going to teach you three years of say French, Italian or Spanish consecutively. So they wind up taking one semester of French, basic Italian for another semester, one semester of Spanish and so on and never get beyond basic level of any of them. They never practice and it is soon forgotten. Same for civics and government.

I also would give citizenship classes to immigrants in the USA. I would often get questions from immigrants that were really interesting. They often learned about government for the first time in their lives. They came from nations originally in which they often had limited educations. And they often did not really understand the form of government of the nation they came from and much less the nation they were applying to become citizens of.

I would have the most interesting conversations with the immigrants. I remember one Mexican woman asking me in Spanish why January 16th was a holiday that all the banks were closed in the USA? I told her it was MLK, Jr. day. Why was he so important? I said he was a Civil Rights leader. That then became why did a Civil Rights movement become necessary in the USA if the US Constitution said all men were created equal, and had the right to pursue happiness? And the Civil War of the US meant that all people were free. They can vote. I explained history. Jellybean counts, literacy tests, exclusions, Jim Crow laws. Why there was not a Day of Emancipation of Slavery Day like there is in Brazil, Puerto Rico, and other countries who had slavery and got rid of it and made it an official Bank Holiday.

It triggered interesting discussions. One woman from Syria asked me why secular government is such an important part of US citizenship? Isn't being a Christian more important?

So many questions.

We studied the history of the US Flag. Thirteen stripes. Red and White. Why? Each represents the 13 original colonies of the USA and they needed to memorize them. Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Delaware, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Virginia, Maryland, New Hampshire.

Those were the Eastern seaboard states. The Core of the USA. The other states became over time part of the 50 states. From the oldest state.

Delaware(1787) – The First State.

Delaware was the first colony to ratify the U.S. Constitution, and by doing so, became the first state.


To the Youngest state.

Which is Hawaii. Admitted on the 21st day of August 1959.

So the entire process of making the Union happen and completing it? Is a long time.

Delaware December 7th, 1787.

This whole experiment with democracy in the Americas is fairly new. And young.

Ironically, Joe Biden is from Delaware the oldest state. And Barack Obama was from the youngest state. Hawaii. And they were on the ticket together. If Obama had been born in August of 1959 before the incorporation of Hawaii into statehood? Would he have qualified for the presidency? Lol. He was born in August of 1961.

If you study government closely enough and you study all the forms of organizing government closely you do become able to see what is wrong, what is going right, and why something is done in government and why it is also buried or never discussed. But if you are intelligent about a scholarly study of it? You should go to the Library of Congress. All the major political debates that happen in a nation's political life are often discussed on the Record in that place. It is an archive.

What is fascinating are the obvious realities of the reasons behind many policies. It is very interesting. You figure out why so many people remain incredibly ignorant about obvious violations of the Constitution and the reasoning behind it all. It is there. Written down in black and white for all to see. The issue is why so many people in their public school system NEVER STUDY IT.
#15303727
Rugoz wrote:Political power plays within a constitutional framework are not conspiracies.

Clearly you were insinuating that there are rich people/corporations outside the political system pulling the strings. Basically, like all conspiracy theorists, you want to put a face on things.

Money matters, in particular in the US, and donors have different political preferences than voters, but it matters on aggregate, and small donors aren't necessarily more in line with what voters want. In fact the rise of the small donors probably led to more radicalism on both sides.

There are people both outside and inside the political system pulling the strings, which is also coordinated and goes way beyond funding political organisations, campaigns, or charities.

However, I wonder if you'd believe Julius Caesar was spontaneously assassinated by angry senators if we didn't know it for a fact that there was a conspiracy to murder him. Or would you believe he was part of a secret triumvirate with two other guys in order to help each other or would you rather think they just always helped each other spontaneously? Do you also believe JFK was assassinated by a lone nut?

Anyway, I'm pretty much tired and disappointed that we always have to discuss the very basics before we'd debate anything relevant or meaningful on PoFo. I actually gave a rather reasonable and fair analysis regarding the upcoming US presidential election, but now the issue is if I'm just a conspiracy theorist just because it may have vindicated Trump to some extent.
#15303728
Beren wrote:There are people both outside and inside the political system pulling the strings, which is also coordinated and goes way beyond funding political organisations, campaigns, or charities.

However, I wonder if you'd believe Julius Caesar was spontaneously assassinated by angry senators if we didn't know it for a fact that there was a conspiracy to murder him. Or would you believe he was part of a secret triumvirate with two other guys in order to help each other or would you rather think they just always helped each other spontaneously? Do you also believe JFK was assassinated by a lone nut?

Anyway, I'm pretty much tired and disappointed that we always have to discuss the very basics before we'd debate anything relevant or meaningful on PoFo. I actually gave a rather reasonable and fair analysis regarding the upcoming US presidential election, but now the issue is if I'm just a conspiracy theorist just because it may have vindicated Trump to some extent.


Ceasars assassination was public and people knew who was behind it after the fact man. Not sure what you are talking about here. All participants were literally members who were known and representatives of different interests.

You are implying that there is some kind of super hidden "The Establishment" that nobody is aware about but somehow manipulating the elections, the elites, and so on... Politics are too chaotic for something like that to happen in the first place. You can't promise A without stepping on toes of B. And it is very impossible to practice this kind of things in private since by default you need many people to realise this and nobody finding out about this is just not possible.

Nobody says that there can't be coordinated efforts but not in a "hidden way" especially for a long time with thousands or tens of thousands participating if not more. Who is the leader or leaders of this "The Establishment"? How are they organised? How are they funded? If you can't answer those questions then it probably doesn't exist with such numbers. Also this grouping has to make sense, you can't say Mitt Romney, Hillary Clinton, Barak Obama and McCain are in charge since they already belong to two seperate power blocks in the first place. This is the whole problem with the Establishment argument.
#15303729
Beren wrote:There are people both outside and inside the political system pulling the strings, which is also coordinated and goes way beyond funding political organisations, campaigns, or charities.


Oh really? Who are those people and how are they pulling the strings?

Beren wrote:However, I wonder if you'd believe Julius Caesar was spontaneously assassinated by angry senators if we didn't know it for a fact that there was a conspiracy to murder him. Or would you believe he was part of a secret triumvirate with two other guys in order to help each other or would you rather think they just always helped each other spontaneously? Do you also believe JFK was assassinated by a lone nut?


I don't believe there's a conspiracy to hide the truth about the JFK assassination.
#15303730
Two authoritarians race for presidency. But i would go with lesser evil one Donald Trump if i had to choose between them.

Democrats nowadays are nothing more than statist and socialist delusionals. People are suffering under Democrats in terms of both socially and economically. Cancel culture directly targets conservative people and economic policies of Democrats hurt all of us.

Global economy and US economy is in favour of a change in US Congress and White House. Thus, global economy and US economy can breathe again. Otherwise, things will likely go from bad to worse in next 5 years.
#15303731
Rugoz wrote:Oh really? Who are those people and how are they pulling the strings?

Wow, Rugoz, what a delicate question indeed! Who are the establishment and how do they pull the strings? Well, who's the governor of Michigan and how does she pull the strings concretely? I guess we should get aware of her complete daily routine to get convinced enough here, right? :lol:

Rugoz wrote:I don't believe there's a conspiracy to hide the truth about the JFK assassination.

I start feeling like I'm in kindergarten. Keep having fun, kids.
#15303732
The best scenario can be a deeply divided government where Democrats keep White House and Republicans control the Congress. America's political system allows that. It is beautiful.

This is the case where we can avoid both Biden and Trump. Republican lawmakers can again make a Democratic president saying things like below:



Make him a powerless president. Take him hostage. :lol:
#15303734
Beren wrote:Wow, Rugoz, what a delicate question indeed! Who are the establishment and how do they pull the strings? Well, who's the governor of Michigan and how does she pull the strings concretely? I guess we should get aware of her complete daily routine to get convinced enough here, right? :lol:


She uses the power vested in her by the constitution.

That's not whom I asked for and you know it.

Beren wrote:I start feeling like I'm in kindergarten. Keep having fun, kids.


JFK assassination theories are money making machines for grifters. Roger Stone wrote a book on one.
#15303758
@Rugoz So are JFK Conspiracists like the "Conspiracy Theorists" who believe that Epstein didn't commit suicide? :hmm:
#15303771
Rugoz wrote:She uses the power vested in her by the constitution.

That's not whom I asked for and you know it.

She ab/uses whatever she can (power, connections, etc.) to prevent a Trump victory.

All I know, by the way, is that your only intent here is to portray me as a tinfoil-hat conspiracy theorist just because I dared to try to have a somewhat meaningful political discussion here. You and JohnRawls are the same as skinster and QatzelOk, the only difference is that you call people different names. Your most meaningful contribution to this thread has been so far as follows:

Rugoz wrote:Turnout is arguably more important than winning over centrists/independents.

Trump can certainly win this. As experience from other countries shows, people are oblivious to democratic backsliding in a highly partisan political environment.

If the economy gets a lot worse before November for example, I wouldn't bet on Biden.

Which is as deep and meaningful as saying that although team work is more important than individual performance in soccer, Argentina can win the World Cup only if Messi's in good shape and plays well, otherwise I wouldn't bet on them.

Image

Rugoz wrote:JFK assassination theories are money making machines for grifters. Roger Stone wrote a book on one.

Wow, people make money on JFK assassination theories and Roger Stone wrote a book on that? Really? And how much did he make with it? :lol:
#15303773
Beren wrote:She ab/uses whatever she can (power, connections, etc.) to prevent a Trump victory.


What does she do? How is it conspiratorial? How does she abuse her power in the process?

Beren wrote:All I know, by the way, is that your only intent here is to portray me as a tinfoil-hat conspiracy theorist


Actually I'm still trying to find out what you mean by "conspiracies and power plays within the ruling class".
#15303774
Rugoz wrote:What does she do? How is it conspiratorial? How does she abuse her power in the process?

Would you really expect me to share insider info I wouldn't discuss publicly even if I were aware of it? I hope Roger Stone will write a book on it sometime if you can't get a clue by yourself. :lol:

Rugoz wrote:Actually I'm still trying to find out what you mean by "conspiracies and power plays within the ruling class".

Good luck with trying, I actually prefer people doing their homework. :up:
#15303775
Beren wrote:Would you really expect me to share insider info I wouldn't discuss publicly even if I were aware of it? I hope Roger Stone will write a book on it sometime if you can't get a clue by yourself. :lol:


What?? :eh:

I'm not asking for specifics about the governor of Michigan, I'm asking how these conspiracies and powerplays actually look like in your opinion.

Godstud wrote:@Rugoz So are JFK Conspiracists like the "Conspiracy Theorists" who believe that Epstein didn't commit suicide? :hmm:


As I said, I don't claim there was no conspiracy to murder JFK or Epstein, I simply don't think anybody knows, including POTUS, FBI, CIA. Personally I don't find the reasons given for a conspiracy very convincing. Such as Epstein had to be stopped from telling the truth.
#15303780


In 90 minutes, the Supreme Court will hear oral arguments on the former President's 14th Amendment case.
#15303796
Rancid wrote:Do we think Trump is going to win?


The polls think that Trump is slightly ahead though :excited: MAGA, MAGA, MAGA :lol:
#15303797
Donald Trump won in 2016 because few people knew him for what he was, and because his opponent gave him a gift with her "deplorables" comment.

Now his supporters have been confirmed as deplorables, to say the least, and Trump has been exposed as the narcissistic crybaby that he is, I can't imagine there will be enough cultists voting in November to put him back in the WH.

Even if Joe Biden tells everyone he spoke to Winston Churchill yesterday on the phone.

I can imagine there will be enough people horrified by the thought of a second Trump term, and equally horrified by the chaos and the cowardice currently on display from the Republican party, that a Democrat sweep might occur.

Of course, it is well within the capabilities of the Democrats to screw it up.
#15303799
Pewty wrote:Donald Trump won in 2016 because few people knew him for what he was, and because his opponent gave him a gift with her "deplorables" comment.

Now his supporters have been confirmed as deplorables, to say the least, and Trump has been exposed as the narcissistic crybaby that he is, I can't imagine there will be enough cultists voting in November to put him back in the WH.

Even if Joe Biden tells everyone he spoke to Winston Churchill yesterday on the phone.

I can imagine there will be enough people horrified by the thought of a second Trump term, and equally horrified by the chaos and the cowardice currently on display from the Republican party, that a Democrat sweep might occur.

Of course, it is well within the capabilities of the Democrats to screw it up.


Anything might happen but the chances of that are very low.
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