The Vladimir Putin Interview by Tucker Carlson - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15304000
Rugoz wrote:Funny how power-hungry authoritarian leaders always think their country desperately needs them. :roll:

Indeed, and sometimes they are correct, @Rugoz. :)
#15304001
Potemkin wrote:Indeed, and sometimes they are correct, @Rugoz. :)


They are sometimes correct because they devote their entire life to make sure they cannot be replaced easily.

Rich wrote:The contrast between the Russian and the American Presidents couldn't be starker. Can you imagine Joe Biden doing an interview this length? It wouldn't matter how sympathetic the journalist.


As senile Biden is, he would probably still beat Putin in an actual debate.
#15304003
Rugoz wrote:As senile Biden is, he would probably still beat Putin in an actual debate.


The good news is, Biden isn't president for life.

Trump is pretty senile as well. Not sure why he's getting more of a pass with his failing memory (most recent is confusing Pelosi for Nikki Hayley). It's time to get past that noise. We know they are both old pieces of shit... actually.. the 3 of them, including Putin. That said, Trump is the biggest existential threat to the US than the other two. A senile Biden is less of a problem than a senile Trump.
#15304007
noemon wrote:https://tuckercarlson.com/the-vladimir-putin-interview/



I listened to the entire interview. It is a bit over two hours. I admire the interpreter who did that work.
What was interesting to me is what he did not say, but implied.
#15304008
Tainari88 wrote:I listened to the entire interview. It is a bit over two hours. I admire the interpreter who did that work.
What was interesting to me is what he did not say, but implied.


Now imagine hearing this crap for atleast 10 years but realistically a bit longer now from state propaganda tv 24/7. Especially the rurikid/vorjag/prince stuff in almost every semi-serious Putin presentation both public and private. I think that his closest "oligarchs/advisors" who are still sane probably wanna kill themselves by now.
#15304010
JohnRawls wrote:Now imagine hearing this crap for atleast 10 years but realistically a bit longer now from state propaganda tv 24/7. Especially the rurikid/vorjag/prince stuff in almost every semi-serious Putin presentation both public and private. I think that his closest "oligarchs/advisors" who are still sane probably wanna kill themselves by now.


Putin is a nationalist. That much is very clear. And he is an idealistic dude more than what I thought before. He is also ruthless, and incredibly not self reflective.

In that he is similar to Trump. Not reflecting on what he does with any depth.

All this is concerning to me John Rawls, because it means that he does not even worry about what voters do or care about in the least. Not in his own nation and certainly not in the USA.

It is about raw power plays now. And that means the outcome is very unpredictable.
#15304014
Tainari88 wrote:Putin is a nationalist. That much is very clear. And he is an idealistic dude more than what I thought before. He is also ruthless, and incredibly not self reflective.

In that he is similar to Trump. Not reflecting on what he does with any depth.

All this is concerning to me John Rawls, because it means that he does not even worry about what voters do or care about in the least. Not in his own nation and certainly not in the USA.

It is about raw power plays now. And that means the outcome is very unpredictable.

Putin, it seems to me, is cut from the same cloth that Stalin was cut from - idealistic, ruthless, and with a complete lack of self-awareness. Putin is not the genius that Stalin was, and he is living in a more stable international environment, so there is a limit to the damage he can inflict on the international order. Putin is not insane, and he is therefore ultimately self-limiting. He can be contained, he will eventually die or be deposed, and his legacy will eventually fade away. The world has survived worse than him before, and will do so again.
#15304018
Rugoz wrote:How about "I looked it up and you are right"? There's no international law that allows a political entity to secede from a nation state. It's up to the nation state to decide.

I guess you would have half a leg to stand on if Russia was a crusader for self-determination at home and abroad, but it's the opposite. The UK had the Scotland and Canada the Quebec referendum, Russia had Chechnya.


The right of self-determination in international law:

Link 1

Cornell Law wrote:Self-determination denotes the legal right of people to decide their own destiny in the international order. Self-determination is a core principle of international law, arising from customary international law, but also recognized as a general principle of law, and enshrined in a number of international treaties. For instance, self-determination is protected in the United Nations Charter and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as a right of “all peoples.”

See, e.g.:

Independence of Kosovo (from Serbia)


ICJ-Accordance with international law of the unilateral declaration of independence in respect of Kosovo

Link 2, Link 3, Link 4, Link 5, Link 6

The right of self-determination according to Rugoz himself:

Rugoz wrote:The belief in human autonomy (the individual’s capacity for self-determination or self-governance, from αὐτο- auto- "self" and νόμος nomos, "law") serves a basis for democratic rights and individual rights in general. They're joined at the hip.


Rugoz wrote:Wtf is this?

Russian-speaking Ukrainians are not Russians. There are tons of English-, German-, French- or Russian-speaking people that are not and do not want to be part of the nation states of England, Germany, France or Russia.


The right of self-determination for the ethnic-Russian people of the Donbass as recognised and signed by Ukraine.


--On the first day after the pullout a dialogue is to start on modalities of conducting local elections in accordance with the Ukrainian legislation and the Law of Ukraine "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts," and also about the future of these districts based on the above-mentioned law.
Without delays, but no later than 30 days from the date of signing of this document, a resolution has to be approved by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, indicating the territory which falls under the special regime in accordance with the law "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts," based in the line set up by the Minsk Memorandum as of 19 September 2014.

Constitutional reform in Ukraine, with a new constitution to come into effect by the end of 2015, the key element of which is decentralisation (taking into account peculiarities of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, agreed with representatives of these districts), and also approval of permanent legislation on the special status of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts in accordance with the measures spelt out in the attached footnote,[note 1] by the end of 2015.


Attached foot note:
The following measures are to be included in the Ukrainian law "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts":
Freedom from punishment, harassment, and discrimination of persons connected with the events that took place in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts
Right of language self-determination
Participation of local self-government in the appointment of the heads of prosecutors' offices and courts in the particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts
The possibility for central executive bodies to conclude agreements with relevant local authorities on economic, social, and cultural development of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts
The state will provide support for the socio-economic development of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts
Assistance from central executive bodies for cross-border cooperation by particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts with regions of the Russian Federation
The freedom to create people's militia units by decision of local councils to maintain public order in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts
The powers of local council deputies and officials, elected in early elections, appointed by the Verkhovna Rada according to this law, cannot be prematurely terminated


Rugoz wrote:This is simply wrong.

Switzerland has custom checks with the EU. Every imported good must be registered beforehand and announced at specific points at the border. Physical checks are performed if necessary to make sure the registration is accurate. This is necessary even with zero tariffs with the EU, since technical regulations can be different and goods from third countries that circulate in the EU and are subject to Swiss-specific tariffs and regulations could enter the border.

Ukraine and Russia had customs check, because Ukraine was not yet part of the customs union. Evidence to the contrary must be provided by you.


I like how you confirm the average superficial person who finds superficiality more important than reality. Who lies about the right of self-determination only when it suits them and for whom hypocricy is a way of life.

Russia-Ukraine custom checks and tarrifs while not subject to a customs unions used to be free and frictionless, EXACTLY the same as Swiss-EU customs, while not subject to a customs union, they are free and tariffless. This allows both pairs, Switzerland-EU and Ukraine-Russia to pretend that superficially there is no customs union, while in reality everything is/was free from checks and tarrifs, exactly like within a customs union. This allows third-parties to dump products(with the exception of steel & meat that are subject to anti-dumping legislation and subject to tarrifs) into these markets by utilising these loopholes that Switzerland has always been an expert of.

Therefore for this pretension to actually work without anyone utilising this freedom to dump third-party products onto the others market a certain level of institutional trust is required between these pretend sets. Putin pulled the plug on the pretension, just like the EU pulled the plug on the pretension for Northern Ireland causing a whole bunch of problems in the process that are yet to be resolved.

Rugoz wrote:I honestly have no idea how you can say this with a straight face.


That's because your face is permanently crooked.
#15304019
Russia sends in people, to a place they want to conquer. They start with identifying who they need to kill, who can be corrupted, and who can lead the cadres they form.

They then send in killers to take out the ones they can't corrupt. With that as an example, they send a second time to threaten and bribe.

Then they send in yet another team to recruit people into their resistance groups.

Gotta tell ya, when I watched the invasion of Crimea, my jaw just about dropped. Those soldiers in unmarked Russian uniforms were good. They were Spetsnaz... Russia's best.
#15304021
Rugoz wrote:I don't watch staged propaganda shows.

Far more informative:




The Youtuber you referenced just released a commentary on the interview , which I am watching now . I try to get both sides , and weigh the evidence . One should I feel recognize propaganda for what it is and use proof reading discernment in evaluating the respective claims made , as to their veracity . You can rightly realize that this softball interview serves as propaganda for the Putin administration . But can you also acknowledge the propaganda of the Western powers , as represented by NATO member nation states , and its state sponsored media ? It is important to look at an issue from all angles , in order to get the whole story .

#15304022
late wrote:Russia sends in people, to a place they want to conquer. They start with identifying who they need to kill, who can be corrupted, and who can lead the cadres they form.

They then send in killers to take out the ones they can't corrupt. With that as an example, they send a second time to threaten and bribe.

Then they send in yet another team to recruit people into their resistance groups.


Clearly according to our American residents, the US can do that in Iraq under the excuse of WMD's, in Yugoslavia under the excuse of a fake image from a refugee camp and in Ukraine by utilising its proxies.

But god forbid Russia does it in 90% ethnic-Russian land where Russians are being shelled by the stooges of a foreign nation, in this case the US again.

No sir, that is a step too far. Who does Russia think it is, a sovereign counry? right Late?

Gotta tell ya, when I watched the invasion of Crimea, my jaw just about dropped. Those soldiers in unmarked Russian uniforms were good. They were Spetsnaz... Russia's best.


Gotta tell ya, the American mind goes from Russian military the "weakest ever" to "really good Spetsnaz" without even a moment's notice.
#15304024
Tainari88 wrote:Putin is a nationalist. That much is very clear. And he is an idealistic dude more than what I thought before. He is also ruthless, and incredibly not self reflective.

In that he is similar to Trump. Not reflecting on what he does with any depth.

All this is concerning to me John Rawls, because it means that he does not even worry about what voters do or care about in the least. Not in his own nation and certainly not in the USA.

It is about raw power plays now. And that means the outcome is very unpredictable.

That is correct and is down to his KGB background and the late 80s and 90s. The long story short is he will steal, kill and rape until somebody gives a pushback which Ukraine is doing.

Also
#15304025
Potemkin wrote:Putin, it seems to me, is cut from the same cloth that Stalin was cut from - idealistic, ruthless, and with a complete lack of self-awareness. Putin is not the genius that Stalin was, and he is living in a more stable international environment, so there is a limit to the damage he can inflict on the international order. Putin is not insane, and he is therefore ultimately self-limiting. He can be contained, he will eventually die or be deposed, and his legacy will eventually fade away. The world has survived worse than him before, and will do so again.

Putin is not really idealistic, his ideology is corruption and money and his villas and lovers this is the furthest possible position from Stalin who talked the talk and walked the walk regarding communism both publicly and behind closed doors.

The history part just happened in the last 10-12 years when he started reading it all of a sudden with really weird takes. Russian regime doesn't really have an ideology right now.
#15304026
Deutschmania wrote:The Youtuber you referenced just released a commentary on the interview , which I am watching now . I try to get both sides , and weigh the evidence . One should I feel recognize propaganda for what it is and use proof reading discernment in evaluating the respective claims made , as to their veracity . You can rightly realize that this softball interview serves as propaganda for the Putin administration . But can you also acknowledge the propaganda of the Western powers , as represented by NATO member nation states , and its state sponsored media ? It is important to look at an issue from all angles , in order to get the whole story .


When you treat trolls with respect, they do not just ignore you, they also use your goodwill against you, like JohnRawls just did by spamming the Ukranian youtuber you brought forward who says:

"Russia's foreign policy is entirely focused on the threat by NATO". He finds this totally wrong because as we know the west & NATO are so friendly and lovable towards Russia they have expanded 5 times in the space Russia unilaterally demilitarised and have set up further ad-hoc missile defense systems even though Russia has wanted to become a member of the western defense infrastructure. Poor arguments for even poorer trolls.

Now we see the trolls saying nothing while spamming the same videos over and over again because they have nothing else to actually say.
#15304035
noemon wrote:The right of self-determination in international law:


From the ruling:

"It also concluded that it was not required by the question posed to decide whether international law conferred a positive entitlement upon Kosovo to declare independence ; rather, it had to determine whether a rule of international law prohibited such a declaration."

As far as I can tell, territorial integrity almost always trumps the right of self-determination. A people can declare independence, but if nobody intervenes on its behalf it is more or less irrelevant. That said, I should not have said it does not exist in international law.

noemon wrote:The right of self-determination according to Rugoz himself:


Oh I'm absolutely in favor of it. I do also acknowledge however that almost no country respects it. Russia certainly doesn't. It doesn't even respect the democratic rules that are a necessary part of it. Hence Russia pretending to enforce that right is the joke of the century. At least China pays respect to principles by rejecting them. Russia turns them into a KGB joke. Fuck that reactionary shithole gangster regime.

noemon wrote:Russia-Ukraine custom checks and tarrifs while not subject to a customs unions used to be free and frictionless, EXACTLY the same as Swiss-EU customs, while not subject to a customs union, they are free and tariffless. This allows both pairs, Switzerland-EU and Ukraine-Russia to pretend that superficially there is no customs union, while in reality everything is/was free from checks and tarrifs, exactly like within a customs union. This allows third-parties to dump products(with the exception of steel & meat that are subject to anti-dumping legislation and subject to tarrifs) into these markets by utilising these loopholes that Switzerland has always been an expert of.

Therefore for this pretension to actually work without anyone utilising this freedom to dump third-party products onto the others market a certain level of institutional trust is required between these pretend sets. Putin pulled the plug on the pretension, just like the EU pulled the plug on the pretension for Northern Ireland causing a whole bunch of problems in the process that are yet to be resolved.


Customs checks are not meant to hinder trade, they're meant to enforce the law. It's akin to policing. Just because they're organized efficiently (i.e. frictionless) at the Swiss-EU border doesn't mean they don't enforce the law or provide "loopholes".

Fact remains, Ukraine joining the Eurasian customs union would have made economic rapprochement with the EU impossible, at least independently of Russia. Just as the UK could not have a trade deal with the US or China if it were a member of the EU customs union. Legally and factually it matters.
#15304036
noemon wrote:
Clearly according to our American residents, the US can do that in Iraq under the excuse of WMD's, in Yugoslavia under the excuse of a fake image from a refugee camp and in Ukraine by utilising its proxies.

But god forbid Russia does it in 90% ethnic-Russian land where Russians are being shelled by the stooges of a foreign nation, in this case the US again.

No sir, that is a step too far. Who does Russia think it is, a sovereign counry? right Late?





PNAC ran the government, and they love war. Iraq was a nightmarish failure opposed by most.

The war was starting to spread to NATO countries. The people fighting weren't mostly doing a war, either. They were slaughtering civilians. Somebody had to clean up the mess before the fighting spread even further.

Russia is doing what it has done before, trying to secure the country by conquering or undermining it's neighbors. Since 5 of those countries are in NATO, we're trying to prevent WW3.

You're welcome.
#15304038
Rugoz wrote:From the ruling:

As far as I can tell, territorial integrity almost always trumps the right of self-determination. A people can declare independence, but if nobody intervenes on its behalf it is more or less irrelevant. That said, I should not have said it does not exist in international law.
Oh I'm absolutely in favor of it. I do also acknowledge however that almost no country respects it. Russia certainly doesn't. It doesn't even respect the democratic rules that are a necessary part of it. Hence Russia pretending to enforce that right is the joke of the century. At least China pays respect to principles by rejecting them. Russia turns them into a KGB joke. Fuck that reactionary shithole gangster regime.

Customs checks are not meant to hinder trade, they're meant to enforce the law. It's akin to policing. Just because they're organized efficiently (i.e. frictionless) at the Swiss-EU border doesn't mean they don't enforce the law or provide "loopholes".

Fact remains, Ukraine joining the Eurasian customs union would have made economic rapprochement with the EU impossible, at least independently of Russia. Just as the UK could not have a trade deal with the US or China if it were a member of the EU customs union. Legally and factually it matters.


"Absolutely in favor" he said, except for ethnic-Russians for whom this right has already been recognised internationally as such. :roll:

All irrelevent nonsense totally unrelated to the original points you tried to argue. The most relevant one you ignored entirely.

Rugoz wrote:A people can declare independence, but if nobody intervenes on its behalf it is more or less irrelevant.


Like Russia intervened on their behalf. Did you just justify Russian intervention?

late wrote:Russia is doing what it has done before, trying to secure the country by conquering or undermining it's neighbors. Since 5 of those countries are in NATO, we're trying to prevent WW3.

You're welcome.


Trying to secure majority ethnic-Russian areas it gifted Ukraine on condition of the Treaty of Friendship that stipulated common defense and foreign policy.

You started WW3 by breaking up all the international treaties between Russia-Ukraine and now you want to be thanked as well.

1) Ukraine is NOT in NATO.
2) Putin just wanted a declaration of neutrality in a country that is MAJORITY ethnic-Russian.
3) Putin took over areas that have already been recognised by international treaty as ethnic-Russia by self-determination.

You have attacked Russia inside ethnic-Russian territory, have literally started WW3 and now you posture as saving the day?

No wonder Trump is going to steamroll you hypocrites like there is no tomorrow.

Nobody trusts you for anything, not a single one of your allies, not the Ukrainians whom you give just enough so they can play on your behalf but neither win or lose, not the Kurds whom you played against the Turks, not the Armenians whom you also played against the Turks, not even the Israelis, not the Greeks whom you sold down the line to Turkey, not the Turks whom you played against the Kurds, not the French or Germans or Italians or Spanish, and not even the Brits.

You have destroyed international institutions like the UN by bypassing them and bombing whoever you please with bullshit excuses and propaganda. You have caused great carnage in Syria, Libya, Iraq, Yugoslavia, Ukraine, Afghanistan, Vietnam and have left with your tails between your legs leaving a total mess behind and others to pick up the bill.

The Europeans are looking to Chinese markets, everyone is de-dollarising while you are sitting here begging for thanks for a war you started.

:knife:
#15304041
noemon wrote:


You have attacked Russia inside ethnic-Russian territory, have literally started WW3 and now you posture as saving the day?




Is that mess attempting to describe the 2nd invasion of Ukraine?

Revanchism is a fancy name for failure...
#15304042
late wrote:Is that mess attempting to describe the 2nd invasion of Ukraine?
Revanchism is a fancy name for failure...


Bullshit is another name for lack of argument.

Minsk is an international treaty and it is quite clear on what Ukraine needs to do to prevent military hostilities. All the things it did not do:

Minsk Agreements wrote:Immediate and full ceasefire in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts of Ukraine and its strict fulfilment as of 00:00 midnight EET on 15 February 2015.
Pull-out of all heavy weapons by both sides to equal distance with the aim of creation of a security zone on minimum 50 kilometres (31 mi) apart for artillery of 100mm calibre or more, and a security zone of 70 kilometres (43 mi) for multiple rocket launchers (MRLS) and 140 kilometres (87 mi) for MLRS Tornado-S, Uragan, Smerch, and Tochka U tactical missile systems:
for Ukrainian troops, from actual line of contact;
for armed formations of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts of Ukraine, from the contact line in accordance with the Minsk Memorandum as of 19 September 2014
The pullout of the above-mentioned heavy weapons must start no later than the second day after the start of the ceasefire and finish within 14 days.
This process will be assisted by OSCE with the support of the Trilateral Contact Group.
Effective monitoring and verification of ceasefire regime and pullout of heavy weapons by OSCE will be provided from the first day of pullout, using all necessary technical means such as satellites, drones, radio-location systems etc.
On the first day after the pullout a dialogue is to start on modalities of conducting local elections in accordance with the Ukrainian legislation and the Law of Ukraine "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts," and also about the future of these districts based on the above-mentioned law.
Without delays, but no later than 30 days from the date of signing of this document, a resolution has to be approved by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, indicating the territory which falls under the special regime in accordance with the law "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts," based in the line set up by the Minsk Memorandum as of 19 September 2014.

Attached foot note:
The following measures are to be included in the Ukrainian law "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts":
Freedom from punishment, harassment, and discrimination of persons connected with the events that took place in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts
Right of language self-determination
Participation of local self-government in the appointment of the heads of prosecutors' offices and courts in the particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts
The possibility for central executive bodies to conclude agreements with relevant local authorities on economic, social, and cultural development of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts
The state will provide support for the socio-economic development of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts
Assistance from central executive bodies for cross-border cooperation by particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts with regions of the Russian Federation
The freedom to create people's militia units by decision of local councils to maintain public order in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts
The powers of local council deputies and officials, elected in early elections, appointed by the Verkhovna Rada according to this law, cannot be prematurely terminated


Revanchism against Russia is a fancy name for failure indeed.

What has you policy of pressure, spitting on international agreement and "isolating" Russia has achieved exactly?

The deaths of thousands of Ukrainians and the loss of these territories stipulated in Minsk regardless?

Russia has overtaken Germany to become the largest economy in Europe in PPP during your sanctions. It has minimal debt and a healthy balance of accounts. It has taken over all the territory stipulated in Minsk as ethnic-Russian.

And what is your future plan to resolve this issue? Maintaining a drip feed where Ukraine can neither win or lose so you bog down the entire European continent in permanent war?

What's your solution here exactly?
#15304052
noemon wrote:Clearly according to our American residents, the US can do that in Iraq under the excuse of WMD's, in Yugoslavia under the excuse of a fake image from a refugee camp and in Ukraine by utilising its proxies.

But god forbid Russia does it in 90% ethnic-Russian land where Russians are being shelled by the stooges of a foreign nation, in this case the US again.

No sir, that is a step too far. Who does Russia think it is, a sovereign counry? right Late?



Gotta tell ya, the American mind goes from Russian military the "weakest ever" to "really good Spetsnaz" without even a moment's notice.


This made me laugh hard. I had to take a laugh break.

That is the issue I have with American political people like Late. I like late. But they fail to see their own hypocrisy because they really think the US government and people are exceptions to the rule.

Got to get over that to see what international politics boils down to Noemon. It is about interests. National interests, business interests and political interests. You need independence and you need to have control over your own territories. Land, resources and people. If you fail at any one of those? You will become vulnerable to other actors always like sharks waiting for a misstep to see if they can get an opening into what you failed to secure.

The truth is very simple. Building a secure society has to do with a set of consistent principles you live by. If you fail to do so? You will wind up the victim of being unprepared and being surprised politically, economically and strategically by other governments and other nations.

The big threat to the government is having too many sellout politicians without any kind of real principles. They just sell off everything in some individualistic ego-fueled shit thoughts to be comfortable. Fuck the Motherland or Fatherland. Or the nation. Or anything collective in nature. It is about ego and them. And the world can go to hell in a handbasket. If you have too many of those types running around in a power-concentrated body? Your nation has serious internal rot. The characteristic of internal rot is nothing getting done, neglect of basic infrastructure, no real planning or long-term goals for many other foreign policies and detrimental stagnant situations within the domestic policy that the electorate wants to have done but are never done because it is not self-serving to the sellouts.
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