[late]

@late I wonder if Biden is realizing that not having strings attached to the money he sends to the Netayahu government is going to cost him the election in the US? Once he makes Netanyahu play nice do you think he might go back to the old US and Israel relationship? That the ceasefire is only for his electoral ambitions?

He has to try to finesse the situation, he can't afford to piss off the Zionists, or the Moralists (sorry, that was the best name I could come up with).

I doubt you can count on Netanyahu to do anything that would help us. He's already slow walking aid...

What you (and that other guy) haven't realised yet is that there has been a seismic shift. The Zionists were able to freeze policy, and control the discussion, and the opposing pressure has built up over the decades, and there's no going back.

That means there will be a political fight out in the open. Probably... Biden will try to keep a lid on it, but I doubt that will be possible for long. I expect the Zionists to decamp, and become Republicans, but that's down the road a ways, assuming it comes to that.

If they do, they picked about the worst possible time to do it.

Interesting times, as the Chinese curse goes..

[wat0n]

The "moralists" as labeled by @late

https://original.newsbreak.com/@viral-n ... 7766155274

It is not simply Zionists who will eventually go Republican if the Dems don't disassociate from these people.

[Pants-of-dog]

The argument that any militant who happens to be Muslim is also a radical religious type whose sole motivation is Allah has been put forth for many terrorist organizations and attacks. 9/11 is a good example. This argument is favoured by those who wish to ignore the stated reasons of these groups as well as historical facts.

If Hamas follows the same profile hierarchy as other Muslim “terror” groups, the foot soldiers may be deeply religious, but the people who plan the complicated attacks (like October 7) are almost always educated and secular professionals. These leaders are people who have experience running complicated long term projects that have a lot of moving parts.

Think about it: Mossad is one of the best intelligence agencies in the world. They were watching Hamas. Carefully. And yet the people running Hamas were able to organize and execute a large scale attack under their noses. Are we supposed to assume some religious zealot just happened to do that by accident?

[wat0n]

The Branch Davidians also managed to gather firearms, hole themselves up in a compound in Waco under the FBI's nose and fighti them, going as far as to self-immolate when the FBI stormed the compound.

Also, there is no contradiction between being deeply religious and a well-educated professional. Osama Bin Laden himself attended elite schools, got a degree in engineering and his family was and still is well-connected with the House of Saud itself. I don't doubt for a second that the political leaders of Hamas currently living in Qatar are devout Muslims, even if unwilling to become martyrs like the members of the military wing.

[Pants-of-dog]

If the Branch Davidians are being used as a contrasting example, then yes, we can see that the Branch Davidians were unable to leave their homes and stage an attack on their target while being surrounded by government forces. Hamas, in contrast, was able to do so. This shows that deep religious faith is not a replacement for intelligent planning.

Bin Laden’s book shelves contained far more books on international politics, economics, and warfare than the few religious texts. And even the few texts dealing with Islam were often about the political history thereof. If Bin Laden was as religious as (for example) the terrorists who flew the planes, then he got lap dances from strippers and ate pork.

But yes, religious faith can coexist with rational and intellectual thought. So it is irrational to assume that Hamas cannot have rational reasons (such as foreign occupation) for militant action, and that deep religious faith does not exclude that.

[wat0n]

Or Hamas can have many reasons, among them, religious fundamentalism.

Even more so since Hamas did its best to derail the peace process of the 1990s, and did not even try to achieve an unity position with the PLO back then and also afterwards.

I will also note that pressures by patrons like Qatar are also quite rational.

[Pants-of-dog]

None of this contradicts the claim that Hamas attacked (at least partly) on October 7 as a reaction to an ongoing occupation.

[wat0n]

Yet since there are other reasons for Hamas struggle, even leaving the West Bank would not magically lead it to stop.

[late]

The "moralists" as labeled by @late

https://original.newsbreak.com/@viral-n ... 7766155274

It is not simply Zionists who will eventually go Republican if the Dems don't disassociate from these people.

A mistake was made, and now there is a price to be paid.

Everybody makes mistakes, but keep lying if it makes you feel better.

[late]

Even more so since Hamas did its best to derail the peace process of the 1990s

You mean when they assassinated Rabin..

Oh wait, that was Israel's extreme Right...

[wat0n]

You mean when they assassinated Rabin..

Oh wait, that was Israel's extreme Right...

And the suicide bombings from before the Israeli far-right murdered Rabin.

A mistake was made, and now there is a price to be paid.

Everybody makes mistakes, but keep lying if it makes you feel better.

Yes, I know you don't mind racism when it is directed against American Jews.

But what do you think the lack of condemnation of left-wing antisemitism will do to Jewish voters, one of the most Dem-leaning groups in the US? People don't like being thrown under the bus.

[late]

Yes, I know you don't mind racism when it is directed against American Jews.

I'm a member of the ACLU...

There are so many things I don't like...

But near the top of the list?

Mass murder, never again, sport.

[wat0n]

I'm a member of the ACLU...

There are so many things I don't like...

But near the top of the list?

Mass murder, never again, sport.

As if being a member of ACLU was an argument

This war started over the mass murder committed by Hamas on October 7th yet I'm pretty sure you condemn Islamophobia and Arabophobia directed at Americans.

The only question is if American Jews will punish the Dems only in Congress or in the POTUS election too.

[late]

As if being a member of ACLU was an argument

This war started over the mass murder committed by Hamas on October 7th yet I'm pretty sure you condemn Islamophobia and Arabophobia directed at Americans.

The only question is if American Jews will punish the Dems only in Congress or in the POTUS election too.

Correct, not an argument. I'll try to slow things down for you.

This slaughter began before you were born.

Roughly half aren't Zionists. Politics gets complicated fast, and this one is a doozy. But I find your threat... an interesting reveal of your priorities, and your willingness to destroy....

[wat0n]

Correct, not an argument. I'll try to slow things down for you.

This slaughter began before you were born.

Roughly half aren't Zionists. Politics gets complicated fast, and this one is a doozy. But I find your threat... an interesting reveal of your priorities, and your willingness to destroy....

In fact, the slaughter began long before the founding of Israel and the victims were Jews. That's beside the point.

Dem silence over antisemitic attacks by the left wing of their own party won't do them any favors, this isn't about Israel anymore but a domestic issue. A domestic test, one the party is clearly failing at.

Last time I checked, the ones that were harassing Jews and screaming "kike!!" at them were the far-right wing of the GOP.

[Pants-of-dog]

If the goal is to stop Hamas or similar groups from wanting to attack Israel, the IDF and the Israeli government should provide an end to the hostilities and violence that is part of “peacetime” in Palestine. This requires radical changes in Israeli society and politics.

[wat0n]

There is no "peacetime" as long as Hamas rules Gaza, and it along with other groups are able to carry out attacks against Israel.

The fact that the current Israeli government doesn't help with this does not really change the above fact.

[Pants-of-dog]

Note that the hostilities did not begin in 2005 with the rise of Hamas. Nor did they begin with the creation of Hamas in 1987. Since the hostilities between Israel and Palestine began long before 1987, Hamas seems more like an effect of the violence than a cause of it.

[wat0n]

Indeed, in fact, they predate the establishment of Israel itself. So if we want to discuss that, it won't end well for you.

[late]

In fact, the slaughter began long before the founding of Israel and the victims were Jews. That's beside the point.

Dem silence over antisemitic attacks by the left wing of their own party won't do them any favors, this isn't about Israel anymore but a domestic issue. A domestic test, one the party is clearly failing at.

Jon Stewart is Jewish, and actually understands ethics. You know, that moment we all have to learn that morality applies to us...