The American Civil War, day by day - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14969534
Your tu quoque fallacy is irrelevant.

You are actually agreeing with me that blacks died unnecessarily because of US racism. And you are simply trying to deflect by bringing up other people who may have been bad.
#14969535
Pants-of-dog wrote:Your tu quoque fallacy is irrelevant.

You are actually agreeing with me that blacks died unnecessarily because of US racism. And you are simply trying to deflect by bringing up other people who may have been bad.


Pointing out the flaw in your reasoning and your disregard of the thinking of the period is not irrelevant or a fallacy. The thread seems intended to give us an understanding of the period. Your misconception needed corrected to adhere to the intent of the thread.
#14969537
It is a fact that black slaves died every day in the US at that time.

If slavery had been outlawed everywhere in the US at the time before the civil war, many of these deaths could have been prevented.

These facts are true and relevent even if you think Hispanics are bad.

So @Doug64 should include an ongoing tally.
#14969538
Pants-of-dog wrote:It is a fact that black slaves died every day in the US at that time.

If slavery had been outlawed everywhere in the US at the time before the civil war, many of these deaths could have been prevented.

These facts are true and relevent even if you think Hispanics are bad.

So @Doug64 should include an ongoing tally.

If you want it done, you should do it. Please include all deaths by race, the race of the assailant, and the cause. I am sure these numbers are readily available from the time on a day to day basis. Lol.
#14969544
Pants-of-dog wrote:You really seem to want to make this personal.


I am just tired of people talking about racism being what the Civil War was about. The people of the time would have no idea what the hell you were on about. The term was first used in 1902.
#14969675
Pants-of-dog wrote:You should keep a running tally of how many slaves died in the south, so that we know how many lives were uselessly lost to racism.

There can be little doubt that European over Black slavery led to a huge increase in the world's Black population. This is the total opposite of Muslim slavery, which genocided there Black slaves out of existence. Black Africa was thousands of years behind Europe, in its development. Population was limited by their technology / economic / social development. If the slaves had stayed in Africa, the population would not have increased. The one thing that Black Africa had was surpless population, it made sense to trade that for manufactured goods, so Africa could start to develop. Note this was very different from Muslim slavery which often just stole the African slaves, castrating the men.
#14970334
December 8, Saturday

Secretary of the Treasury Howell Cobb of Georgia resigns. Formerly a strong unionist, he has come to believe that the election of a Republican justifies secession and had dissented with Buchanan’s message to Congress. “The evil has now passed beyond control, and must be met by each and all of us, under our responsibility to God and our country,” Cobb writes Buchanan. Cobb will be succeeded for about a month by Philip F. Thomas of Maryland. This marks the first break in Buchanan’s Cabinet.

A delegation of South Carolina congressmen call upon President Buchanan and say that if reinforcements are going to Charleston it would be a sure way to bring about what he wants to avoid. They ask for negotiations with South Carolina commissioners to consider the turning over of Federal property to the state. The President asks for a memorandum
Last edited by Doug64 on 08 Dec 2018 15:55, edited 1 time in total.
#14970341
Doug64 wrote:December 8, Saturday

Secretary of the Treasury Howell Cobb of Georgia resigns. Formerly a strong unionist, he has come to believe that the election of a Republican justifies secession and had dissented with Buchanan’s message to Congress. “The evil has now passed beyond control, and must be met by each and all of us, under our responsibility to God and our country,” Cobb writes Buchanan. Cobb will be succeeded for about a month by Philip F. Thomas of Maryland. This marks the first break in Buchanan’s Cabinet.

A delegation of South Carolina congressmen call upon Mr. Buchanan and say that if reinforcements are going to Charleston it would be a sure way to bring about what he wants to avoid. They ask for negotiations with South Carolina commissioners to consider the turning over of Federal property to the state. The President asks for a memorandum

That must have been the moment when the reality of the situation hit home to Buchanan - either there was going to be secession, or there was going to be war. Buchanan had a clear choice - either let the Union break, or fight to save it.
#14970354
Potemkin wrote:That must have been the moment when the reality of the situation hit home to Buchanan - either there was going to be secession, or there was going to be war. Buchanan had a clear choice - either let the Union break, or fight to save it.

Agreed, and his decision wasn’t helped by his own inclinations. There was a good reason he was often called a “doughface” (a Northerner with Southern sympathies)—as president he had been one of slavery’s staunchest defenders, pushing both for Kansas to be admitted as a slave state and for a broad decision in the Dred Scott case, and opposing Douglas’s Popular Sovereignty movement. I have to wonder how much he felt himself betrayed by the deep South’s reaction to Lincoln’s election. His presidency was supposed to be the cap on a distinguished political career (just ignore that little kerfluffle with Utah), and now this.
#14970358
Doug64 wrote:Agreed, and his decision wasn’t helped by his own inclinations. There was a good reason he was often called a “doughface” (a Northerner with Southern sympathies)—as president he had been one of slavery’s staunchest defenders, pushing both for Kansas to be admitted as a slave state and for a broad decision in the Dred Scott case, and opposing Douglas’s Popular Sovereignty movement. I have to wonder how much he felt himself betrayed by the deep South’s reaction to Lincoln’s election. His presidency was supposed to be the cap on a distinguished political career (just ignore that little kerfluffle with Utah), and now this.

Indeed. Buchanan was the Neville Chamberlain of the American Civil War - he staked his political reputation on appeasing the South in order to hold the Union together. But appeasement only works if the person you are trying to appease agrees to be appeased. The South refused to be appeased, so war became inevitable if the Union was to be saved. All of this must have become clear to him after his little chat with those South Carolina congressmen.
#14970371
Potemkin wrote:Indeed. Buchanan was the Neville Chamberlain of the American Civil War - he staked his political reputation on appeasing the South in order to hold the Union together. But appeasement only works if the person you are trying to appease agrees to be appeased.

Neville Chamberlain was the greatest man of the twentieth century, who led his country and France into war with Hitler, while all the pathetic cowards in Ireland, the United States, Belgium, Switzerland, etc, fell over themselves in declaring their neutrality. Note even France only gave Germany their final ultimatum after Chamberlain had declared war. Chamberlain's so called appeasement wasn't a weakness but a strength. It was precisely because, people believed that Chamberlain genuinely wanted peace, that Chamberlain would only resort to war as a last resort, when all other possibilities had been exhausted, that the British people were willing to follow him into the horror of general war barely twenty years after the last great terrible conflict.

This is why I have absolute contempt for the anti Nazi blowhards of the present day. There's nothing brave about opposing Nazism in 2018, particularly as they are often the same people who wanted to run away from Afghanistan and Iraq just because we met a little bit of resistance from the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Iraq.
#14970398
Pants-of-dog wrote:So no tally of unnecessary deaths due to racism?

If you can come up with some way to compute it, feel free to do so.
#14970420
Pants-of-dog wrote:So, US historians never thought that those deathsnwere important enough to tabulate?


That would require records listing deaths due to ‘racism’. A word not yet invented. What is the purpose of demanding figures you know could not have existed? Is America now guilty, in your mind, of not believing as you think they should have?
#14970962
December 10, Monday

The South Carolina delegation in Washington speaks again with the President, presenting a memorandum saying that the state will not attack or molest the United States forts in Charleston Harbor prior to the act of secession and, they hope, until an offer has been made to negotiate for an amicable arrangement between the state and the United States, provided no reinforcements should be sent to the forts. The delegation receives the impression that no change will be made by the Federals in the military situation at Charleston. For their part, state authorities will try to prevent any premature collision. This interview will later become a subject of dispute.

The President also moves to prepare the limited military resources of the nation for possible action.

Major Anderson reports every day or two from Charleston.

Abraham Lincoln, in Springfield, writes Senator Lyman Trumbull, “Let there be no compromise on the question of extending slavery. If there be, all our labor is lost, and, ere long, must be done again.... The tug has come & better now, than any time hereafter.”
#14970963
The South Carolina delegation in Washington speaks again with the President, presenting a memorandum saying that the state will not attack or molest the United States forts in Charleston Harbor prior to the act of secession and, they hope, until an offer has been made to negotiate for an amicable arrangement between the state and the United States, provided no reinforcements should be sent to the forts.

In other words, they were asking the United States to unconditionally surrender before a shot had been fired, and to hand over all Federal property in the Southern states. Who would agree to this? :eh:

The delegation receives the impression that no change will be made by the Federals in the military situation at Charleston. For their part, state authorities will try to prevent any premature collision. This interview will later become a subject of dispute.

More of Buchanan's mealy-mouthed prevarication and appeasement. It was much too late for that. What was needed now was clarity, on both sides. The South Carolina congressmen were being very clear with the President, but it seems Buchanan wasn't being very clear with them.

The President also moves to prepare the limited military resources of the nation for possible action.

Finally! It took him long enough. :roll:

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