[Piano Red]

Hollywood and History just don't match most of the time guys, it's a fact of nature.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

So I'll ask you again, if we have sooo much control over Venezuela, why haven't they agreed to SAFTA pronto? It's what we want (not me, our administration), and yet they say no.

If we have so much control over them, why didn't we just send in troops during the strike? That's where a lot of our oil comes from and not intervening in the strike costs us tons of money. And yet we didn't. Hmmm

Where have you been living these past year Clown?? Iraq??

US orchestrated a coup which arrested Chaves...and they put in a new presdient. What stopped you?? The fact that 500,000 people just marched to the jail...and the soldiers put their guns down...and they said release Chavez or we'll raise hell!!

You couldn't do it...becasue there were half a million pissed off Venezuelans and the soldiers were ready to turn their guns around too. Thats why you couldn't do it...not for lack of trying

[Crazy Brown Guy]

This is how US establishes its Imperialist agenda
1.US overthrows a government of a country
2.Installs a puppet government
3.While this government is in power, US based companies establish base of operation and starts to suck the resources out of the country and blends in with the economy of the country.
4.Many moons pass people get pissed the revolt or elect new leader that they want. By this time US companies are already embedded in the countries economy and any attempt to take over would result in an economical disaster for the country, therefore the don’t even try
This Ends the Imperialist agenda of the US in other countries

You left out Canada on the list. So funny they tried to invade us but we marched down to their white house and burned it down. Haha€¦ take that dumb assess.

[clownboy]

Where have you been living these past year Clown?? Iraq??

US orchestrated a coup which arrested Chaves...and they put in a new presdient. What stopped you?? The fact that 500,000 people just marched to the jail...and the soldiers put their guns down...and they said release Chavez or we'll raise hell!!

You couldn't do it...becasue there were half a million pissed off Venezuelans and the soldiers were ready to turn their guns around too. Thats why you couldn't do it...not for lack of trying

Source? I'd prefer one of the non-ufo sites, but hey, whatever you got.

[Piano Red]

You left out Canada on the list. So funny they tried to invade us but we marched down to their white house and burned it down. Haha… take that dumb assess.

Shows how much you know about history Jina, the original President's mansion aka. The White House was burned down along with the rest of Washington D.C. by the British Army in the War of 1812. Canada played almost no major role in that war except as a base of operations and staging area for the Brits to invade the U.S.

[Crazy Brown Guy]

Hmmm... I was forced to study this in grade 7 and 8, so I know my history. It was the Canadians who burned it down, you should review your notes. Do you know that the British Army was made up of mostly Canadian Loyalists in this war?

[fastspawn]

Where have you been living these past year Clown?? Iraq??

US orchestrated a coup which arrested Chaves...and they put in a new presdient. What stopped you?? The fact that 500,000 people just marched to the jail...and the soldiers put their guns down...and they said release Chavez or we'll raise hell!!

You couldn't do it...becasue there were half a million pissed off Venezuelans and the soldiers were ready to turn their guns around too. Thats why you couldn't do it...not for lack of trying

Source? I'd prefer one of the non-ufo sites, but hey, whatever you got.

go to www.americas.org

Pull down country lists and go to venezuela.

Don't worry no ufos there.

Here's a link straight to Venezuela's site for Americas.org

http://www.americas.org/index.php?cp=region&co=43

The coup occured in April-May 2002. It failed because of popular support for President Chavez, who may I add, was democratically elected. US papers (starting with San Francisco Times) reported 100,000 people who
demostrated against Chavez. This figure was inflated and exaggerated till when it reached NYT, the same demostrations held on April 12-13 swelled to 600k. ( The power of the media and their ethical considerations.)

However they failed to report the half million that demostrated for Chavez. (The hoi polloi support Chavez, he was like them an Indian, and not mestizo or Spanish.)

http://www.americas.org/index.php?cp=re ... 2002&co=43

This link is for the year 2002. You have to register to access NYT online. It should be free.

[clownboy]

Thanks for the source fastspawn.

TS was claiming that the US (the imperialists we are) ALREADY has economic and political control over Venezuala. According to Chavez, this isn't true.

"The Venezuelan government and the organizations that support it don’t need any money from the United States because we have dignity and sovereignty," said Chavez, adding that the U.S. government is using the American people's money to finance political opposition and conspiratorial activities to overthrow the Venezuelan government. Chavez demanded "respect for Venezuela."

"Apart from having lots of oil, Venezuela has abundant dignity," he said, adding that the people of Venezuela is willing to defend the country's independence, its land, skies and sea "at any cost, even if it cost U.S. our lives, because this is a free and independent country"

If supporting the opposing party in a foreign government is imperialism, then ANY country that gives money to one side of a foreign country's issue - is imperialist. Name a country that does NOT do this.

[TROI]

Great Britain

[jaakko]

TS was claiming that the US (the imperialists we are) ALREADY has economic and political control over Venezuala.

TS said this where? Venezuela is a dependent, yet not colonial type country. The US used its power in Venezuela through the Venezuelan comprador bourgeoisie, and has recently been using it in coup intrigues. Obviously because of the Chavez government the US has no political control over the country. There's a national democratic revolution in process, the government keeping in power by the help of the masses and the patriotic sections of the armed forces (high ranking officers being most obedient towards the strong comprador elements of the capitalist class).

If supporting the opposing party in a foreign government is imperialism

It's not imperialism. Imperialism is not some certain set of politics, but a system. What makes US activities in Venezuela imperialist, is that they aim at securing the interests of US finance capital through restoring the comprador bourgeoisie in power.

[jaakko]

Great Britain

Britain is no different in principle, just less active than the currently leading imperialist power USA. Britain supports comprador parties in Zimbabwe, for example.

[TROI]

fair enough, just checking...

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

TS was claiming that the US (the imperialists we are) ALREADY has economic and political control over Venezuala. According to Chavez, this isn't true.

US does not control Chavez...and becasue of him the Venezuelan government. It has ECONOMIC control over thr country...as US companies own Venezuela's oil infrastructure and large sections of its economy. The local bourgeouis in Venezuela is supported and organized by the US to try and overthrow Chavez...the same for the Army officers. It become pretty obvious just how much control the US has in Venezuela when the CIA orchestrated coup arrested Chavez and placed someone else as president.

As I said...the only thing that prevented a US coup in Venezuela and restored Chavez to power...were 500,000 poor people in Caracas decided to go and pay a visit to the prison where the US was holding Chavez...and the soldiers turned their guns around on their officers.

It was a failed coup...but as I said...not becasue of lack of trying on the part of the US.

In order to overthrow Chavez now the US is resorting to economic blackmail...by having the factory owners go on strike (the owners going on strike!!) and still keeps threatening Chavez that if he tries to take his economic reforms too far (by nationalizing the oil industry and such), the US will intervene.

The US has bigger problems right now than Venezuela...It is a miracle Chavez survives there...considering that all the media is owned by rich capitalists supported by the US and all it does is slander Chavez (in the most racist manners possible), the economy is controled by US corporations and the army officers are loyal to them. The only thing saving Chavez and keeping the US out...is just the masses of poor people opposed to you.

As I said...where have you been living these past few years?? Where have you been living your whole life?? US invades Lation American countries at will every few years or so...and you say "what imperialism??"

[clownboy]

Well TS, I've been right here.

First you tell me that we are imperialists because we control Venezuala's government and economy. Then you say, well, you don't really control their government (not for lack of trying), but you DO control the economy.

Okay, leaving aside that the leader of the government we don't control says we DON'T control his economy, why then don't we exercise that control. If we had economic control in the first place, why would we even need to support a coup?

If we've got so much control, why are they still a OPEC member?

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

First you tell me that we are imperialists because we control Venezuala's government and economy. Then you say, well, you don't really control their government (not for lack of trying), but you DO control the economy.

WHEN did I say the US controlled Venezuela?? Please do quote...

[clownboy]

WHEN did I say the US controlled Venezuela?? Please do quote...

I asked you, if we have so much control why aren't we exercising it. You replied with a couple examples of our "imperialism", one of them being Venezuala. See below.

This control thing you speak of isn't what it's cracked up to be. Wink

Really...why don't you ask the 300 Latin American presdients you have overthrown so far. Ask Allende...of wait you killed him.

Ask the indigenous people who live next to US oil pipelines in Venezuela...guraded by private militias of the US oil companies.

Jeeze...you live next to them...and you don't know the first thing about them.

So I'll ask you again, if we have sooo much control over Venezuela, why haven't they agreed to SAFTA pronto? It's what we want (not me, our administration), and yet they say no.

If we have so much control over them, why didn't we just send in troops during the strike? That's where a lot of our oil comes from and not intervening in the strike costs us tons of money. And yet we didn't. Hmmm...

[fastspawn]

i think TS 's point is that US does try to take over the political control of other countries. Venezuela is an example of a country they tried to take control, by using a military coup. But the coup failed because popular support for Chavez was so great, the politicos could not control the entire population.

But still US is still trying their best to overthrow Chavez. Probably in US media, you guys will never see the news concerning Venezuela because of self-censoring(Does venezuela news sell?) and of course alleged coercian. But the rest of the world, Venezuela is rather interesting news, especially the newest accusations on Chavez.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

US has economic control in Venezuela becasue they control the oil infrastructure...which is the example I brought up. When Chavez tried to nationalize the oil infrastructre...the US tried to overthrow him...and Chavez doesn't try to nationalize it anymore becasue the US threatens him.

That was my example

[jaakko]

US has economic control in Venezuela becasue they control the oil infrastructure...which is the example I brought up. When Chavez tried to nationalize the oil infrastructre...the US tried to overthrow him...and Chavez doesn't try to nationalize it anymore becasue the US threatens him.

The "balance of power" in Venezuela can be further explained by the fact that the oil industry itself is under formal state ownership. The capitalists in the state-owned oil industry want to privatise it completely, while Chavez and the people are struggling to increase control over it. This is where the interests of US capitalists and Venezuelan comprador bourgeoisie meet.