Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...
fuser wrote:Meh, in the end he lost.
fuser wrote:Rommel to me is one of the most overrated general of history. Also, if avoiding causality was the main concern, then they should probably had agreed to Soviet demand before the war and before any causality rather than after suffering causality (small or large.)
Albert Kesselring wrote:Rommel is a great general leading fast-moving troops at the corps level of command, but he is too moody and changeable for higher command
Why should they have agreed to the invasion of Finland? This was their belief because a communist puppet government was supposed to be installed after the invasion.
fuser wrote:There are many reasons for that respect, mainly Rommel was the only major opposition that western allies were facing.
As per my opinion, it is based on ground realities such as :
German general staff wanted to remain on defensive in Africa as they were aware of the logistical constrains if they went on offensive but given the close proximity of Rommel to Hitler, he persuaded the later to endorse an offensive plan (against the better judgement of German general staff) which ultimately resulted in disaster for axis army.
It was Albert Kesselring, the theatre commander who managed to siege and achieve local air superiority over malta to which resulted in constant flow of supplies in Africa and to strengthen that he wanted to neutralize malta (which was a much more better strategic target than Egypt) but Rommel once again persuaded Hitler and the parachute troops assembled for an assault on Malta was diverted for a disastrous attack on Egypt. It was once again Albert who saved Italy (of course not indefinitely and his evacuation of German army from Sicily was just brilliant )when Rommel was telling Hitler to abandon Italy. There is more to that but my views on Rommel can be summed up Albert's view :
fuser wrote:I am not talking about agreeing to invasion but agreeing to demands and deal with USSR without any need of war which basically entailed an exchange of territories and they agreed to that but only after suffering causalities. As per second part of your statement, this may have been the belief but there was never such a plan and no document, speech either secret or official exists to testify to that.
Rommel did as well as could have been expected during World War 2, his success came from his daring. In France his 7th Panzer division was nicknamed the ghost division. He used speed and surprise better than most of his contemporariness. His retreat into his own minefield at Gazala was a bold, decisive and inspired move that smacked of desperation but in war fortune really can favour the bold. In France 1945 nothing and no one could have saved the Germans and no amount of Rommel magic could save the wermacht. The time for daring and swift decisive counter attacks had passed and in the battle of attrition that followed there could only be one winner.
The commies did it everywhere else, why would this be any different? The demand was land. They would effectively have been agreeing to invasion.
which basically is Commies are evil hence anything must be true about them whether there is any evidence or not. Also, they did accepted those demands but only after suffering causalities. So, following your logic the war ended when Finland agreed to soviet invasion? fuser wrote:I don't think you have addressed any of my point which criticized Rommel.
fuser wrote:You do realize this is not an argument at all.
I didn't need to, he was responsible for many other battles which were considered great successes. Your argument is akin to, "you're not allowed to highlight his succeses because they contradict his failures ive referenced". Thats not a debate at all...
By all means, show me which eastern bloc countries invaded or occupied by Russia were left unmolested by communism by the Ruskies after this...
fuser wrote:The only thing is that I never said or implied such. I offered my criticism and was hoping that you will defend Rommel from that criticism but you didn't. That's ok and as I have already said, he was great at tactical level but utter failure at strategic level. Germany was far better off with German general staff making strategic decisions for him rather than vice versa as I already showed.
fuser wrote:Good. So, you have no evidence regarding your claim about soviet intentions for Finland. Other than basically commies are evil.
How is me highlighting his successes not defending your criticism? World War 2 wasn't fought in one territory! It was fought over multiple teritories. I even gave you an example of some of his cunning in North Africa that earned him respect? Tell me waht you want to hear because you clearly appear have great difficulty accepting a differing opinion to your own.
I have criticized his strategic blunders and you have not defended those at all.What a retarded argument. I made no such interferences, only stated facts. Finland had helped anti-communist groups in the Russian Civil War, it was only logical that Russia would seek to enforce communism here, as it did elsewhere.
I already got it, you have no evidence at all. just wild assumptions. Oh and USSR also had occupied Austria without enforcing communism on them. 
fuser wrote:Because I never doubted his Tactical ability and you are only repeating his tactical success.
Malta-based British forces destroy most of Rommel’s supplies in 1941
In September and October 1941, Malta, which had by then become a prime target for Italian and German bombers, continued to be reinforced by air and sea: fighter aircraft for the defence of the island and also another convoy to strengthen the garrison. Although air raid alarms had decreased in September, they became more frequent in the following month. At the same time, Axis convoys to North Africa were still being intercepted by air and sea from Malta.
In October 1941, over 60 per cent of Rommel’s supplies were sunk in passage
Early in September, fighter aircraft were delivered to Malta. HMS Ark Royal sailed from Gibraltar on September 9, where during Operation Status I it flew 14 Hurricanes to Malta, and later proceeded to Egypt.
Twelve Hurricanes remained aboard the aircraft-carrier. The only two Bristol Blenheims that left Gibraltar guided the 14 Hurricanes to Malta.
On September 13, during Operation Status II, HMS Ark Royal and HMS Furious flew off 46 Hurricanes to Malta. During this delivery one Hurricane crashed while taking off from Furious; it caught fire and was catapulted into the sea, but the rest reached the island safely. During the delivery, seven Blenheims guided the fighter aircraft towards Malta. After their arrival, 23 of them flew on to Egypt.
In mid-September the submarines of the 10th Flotilla operating from Malta registered one of their biggest successes against the Axis convoys sent to reinforce the German Afrika Korps, led by General Erwin Rommel, in Libya. On September 17, a large Italian convoy was reported to have left Taranto; it comprised the troopships Oceania, Neptunia and Vulcania. The Royal Navy submarines Unbeaten, Upholder, Upright and Ursula were ordered to sail.
In the early morning of September 18, Upholder (Lt Cdr David Wanklyn) spotted the convoy and fired four torpedoes. Two hit the19,475-ton Neptunia and one hit the 19,507-ton Oceania. The submarine dived but later resurfaced firing two torpedoes against the stricken Neptunia, which sank in eight minutes. Two of the troopships were sunk, while Vulcania, although damaged, succeeded to reach Tripoli.
Apart from that, 400 out of a total of 6,900 troops perished.
Seven days later, Count Galeazzo Ciano, the Italian Foreign Minister and Benito Mussolini’s son-in-law, recorded in his diary the heavy losses sustained by Italy in terms of merchant shipping in the Mediterranean, probably referring to this episode.
He wrote: “Actually, the Mediterranean situation is dark, and will become even more so because of the continued loss of merchant ships. Commander Bigliardi, who is in the know and is a reliable person, says that in responsible naval circles they are seriously beginning to wonder whether we shouldn’t decide to give up Libya, rather than wait until we are forced to do so by the complete lack of freighters…”
On October 1, he continued: “A conference with Admiral Ferreri. He is concerned about the fate of Libya, especially if the sinking of our merchant ships continues to be as heavy as in September. While in the past the percentage of ships lost had reached a maximum of five per cent, in September it jumped to 18 per cent…”
British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, in his six-volume memoir The Second World War, also mentioned the heavy losses suffered by the Axis during this period. He clearly shows the importance of Malta for the Allied cause: “…during the three months ending with September 43 Axis ships, of 150,000 tons, besides 64 smaller craft, were sunk on the African route by British aircraft, submarines and destroyers, acting from Malta. In October, over 60 per cent of Rommel’s supplies were sunk in passage…”
Churchill also said that during this time, the German admiral serving with the Italian High Command reported that “now, as ever, the British fleet dominates the Mediterranean. The Italian fleet had been unable to prevent operations by the enemy’s naval forces, but, in co-operation with the Italian air force, it did prevent the Mediterranean route being used for regular British convoy traffic…
“The most dangerous British weapon is the submarine, especially those operating from Malta. In the period covered there were 36 submarine attacks; of these, 19 were successful… Owing to the weakness of the Italian air force in Sicily, the threat from Malta to the German-Italian sea route to North Africa has increased in the last few weeks…”
Due to these heavy losses, Hitler decided to send U-boats to the Mediterranean from the Atlantic. Two submarine bases were set up at La Spezia, Italy, and at Salamis in Greece for submarines in the eastern Mediterranean. The first U-boat to arrive in the Mediterranean was U-371 on September 21, followed by U-97 and U-559 on September 26, and U-331 on September 29. In October two others arrived: U-75 on October 3 and U-79 two days later.
Meanwhile, Malta received more reinforcements when the British Admiralty decided to send the convoy Operation Halberd, which consisted of nine merchant ships: HMS Breconshire, Ajax, Clan MacDonald, Clan Ferguson, Imperial Star, City of Lincoln, City of Calcutta, Dunedin Star and Rowallan Castle. The convoy sailed on September 24, 1941, from Gibraltar, with a close escort under the command of Rear Admiral Harold Martin Burrough. It was also accompanied by Force H, under the command of Admiral Sir James Somerville. This consisted of the aircraft-carrier Ark Royal, the battleships Nelson, Rodney and Prince of Wales, five cruisers and 18 destroyers.
The Italian fleet attempted to intercept the convoy on September 26, north of Cape Ferrol, but it had already passed. When the convoy was approaching Sardinia, Italian torpedo bombers succeeded in hitting the bows of HMS Nelson which was seriously damaged on September 27. In the evening, Somerville’s Force H turned back and sailed for Gibraltar and Burrough in HMS Kenya was left to escort the convoy through the Skerki Bank.
The Germans knew this could seriously hamper their chances of winning the war
- Charles Debono
During the night, the Imperial Star was hit by Italian torpedo bombers from Pantelleria, but after an attempt to tow the merchant ship, it was sunk by HMS Oribi. The convoy reached Malta on September 28, 1941, delivering 60,000 tons of supplies. The ships between them carried 2,600 service personnel.
During the late summer and early autumn of 1941 the Regia Aeronautica stepped up its attacks on Malta following the heavy losses sustained by Italian merchant ships.
The Axis, especially the Germans, knew this could seriously hamper their chances of winning the war in North Africa. From September 1941, there were 31 air raid alerts over Malta, and they nearly doubled to 57 in the following month.
According to Royal Artillery statistics, during September 1941, 78 tons of bombs were dropped on Malta, mostly during nocturnal air raids. However, in October this went up to 96 tons. It is interesting to note that during this time the Italian air force employed a new fighter aircraft, the Macchi MC202 Folgore, which appeared over Malta for the first time on October 1, 1941.
To strengthen the naval forces operating from Malta against Axis convoys, the British Admiralty, at Churchill’s insistence, decided to send a small force to Malta consisting of cruisers and destroyers. This squadron, know as Force K, arrived in Malta from Gibraltar on October 21, 1941. It consisted of the cruisers Aurora and Penelope and the destroyers Lance and Lively.
The presence of Force K immediately caused problems to the Italians and, in fact, on October 22, all sea traffic across the central Mediterranean was temporarily suspended until adequate cruiser protection for their convoys could be organised.http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/vi ... 941.407478
fuser wrote:So, asking for your claim (which are absolutely not true and all evidences point to contrary) that USSR goal in winter war was enforcing communism is retarded?
You claim that Rommell lost Malta, without understanding that Rommel had 60% of his supplies sunk to defend Malta! Look!
What fucking evidence points to the contrary??? Did you not see the map I provided showing the Ruissian way. What planet do you live on?
fuser wrote:
Malta was not in German hands to defend. Malta based British forces were taking heavy toll on axis shipping, that is precisely why Malta should have been more immediate target (which was more doable than Egypt) rather than using Paratroopers assembled for assault on Mlata for disastrous invasion of Egypt as Rommel did.
fuser wrote:Because your map is irrelevant as was your question. Have you heard of the term Red Herring? Also, lol at "Russian way". Do you also have an expert knowledge on German, Chinease, Korean, French way as well?
I see you still can't provide any either open or secret document which reveals such a plan of enforcing communism on Finland.
Oh and my evidences are complete lack of any such aforementioned documents. Talks between Molotov and Stalin, Molotov Speech's and both clearly implied that soviet wanted basically same deal as they were demanding before the war (and they did got it). But meh, you know the Russian way and commies are evil so don't take their words and just believe you even when you can't provide one shred of evidence for my claim.
fuser wrote:Also, Austria was occupied by USSR but wasn't forced to become communist.
In the immediate aftermath of the war, Austria, like Germany, was divided into four occupation zones and jointly occupied by the United States, Soviet Union, United Kingdom and France. Vienna, like Berlin, was similarly subdivided but the central district was administered jointly by the Allied Control Council.
Whereas Germany was divided into East and West Germany in 1949, Austria remained under joint occupation until 1955; its status became a controversial subject in the Cold War until the warming of relations known as the Khrushchev Thaw. After Austrian promises of perpetual neutrality, Austria was accorded full independence on 12 May 1955 and the last occupation troops left on 25 October that year.
Precisely! Yet here you are, alluding to German air superiority vs the superior British naval fleet which was sinking the supplies Rommel needed to defend Malta, yet you somehow hold Rommel accountable for this failure? Why?
Are you even reading what I have written. They needed to take malta (not defend) and the forces assmbled for this very operation was wasted by Rommel on his disastrous invasion of Egypt.Yeah, now you're just talking crap. Get back to me when you are prepared to be honest. History and the facts regarding this don't lie. Communism was your reality after being occupied Militarily by Russia, to argue otherwise is simply to be in fucking denial!
Austria was NEVER occupied by the USSR! It was under ALLIED jurisdiction! Please read instead of making ignorant statements!
fuser wrote:What are you talking about? Rommel didn't needed to defend Malta as Malta was not German.
German defeat[edit]
Rommel's offensive was eventually stopped at the small railway halt of El Alamein, just 150 miles from Cairo. In July 1942 the First Battle of El Alamein was lost by Rommel because he was suffering from the eternal curse of the desert war, long supply lines. The British, with their backs against the wall, were very close to their supplies, and had fresh troops on hand. In early September 1942 Rommel tried again to break through the British lines during the Battle of Alam Halfa. He was decisively stopped by the newly arrived British commander, Lieutenant General Bernard Montgomery.
With British forces from Malta interdicting his supplies at sea, and the massive distances they had to cover in the desert, Rommel could not hold the El Alamein position forever. Still, it took a large set piece battle from late October to early November 1942, the Second Battle of El Alamein to defeat the Germans forcing them to retreat westwards towards Libya and Tunisia.
The German's strategic goal had been to slice through Egypt, capture the Suez Canal, enter the British Mandate of Palestine, activate an Arab uprising against the British, and finally link up with German forces thrusting south from Southern Russia. But all this was foiled by Montgomery's victory over Rommel at El Alamein.
fuser wrote:For the fifth time, you have absolutely no shred of evidence to back up your claim. I should just believe your claim or else I am talking crap.
So, was Germany. But Soviet occupied Austria didn't became communist like Germany just like Finland didn't become communist after loosing once again in ww2
The evidence is staring you in the face! You are incapable of answering to it! You can scream and deny as much as you want, it just makes you look desperate. Regarding Germany, that question is so silly it doesn't even warrant a response! It was split between the allies because they won. To whom the victor goes the spoils. Britain, France, USA, and Russia all got a slice. But since Russia and the US differed from each other, they split the country. West Germany which belonged to the Americans became a democracy, and East Germany belonged to the Soviets and became Communist (see point proven again yet here you are, still arguing for the sake of arguing). Its really that fucking simple! Every country that the Russian military took control of fell under communism. How ignorant does one have to be to argue against this? Put your ego aside for a second and get real guy. That is exactly what I am referring to. How could he take it without his supplies getting through to him? You, not me, credited a superior German air force, yet it did nothing to disable the British naval fleet sinking supplies Rommel desperately needed.
Seriously, much less supplies is needed for invading malta than egypt, if you don't believe me look at their sizes. Please tell me you get it now, mkay?
He had no choice but to go for Egypt due to the distance to his supply lines and the fact that they were just not getting to him in time or quantity.
The evidence is staring you in the face! You are incapable of answering to it! You can scream and deny as much as you want, it just makes you look desperate.
Regarding Germany, that question is so silly it doesnt even warrant a response!
Germany and Austria both were divided into respective occupation zones by allies and yet Soviet Occupation zone in Germany went commie unlike Soviet occupation zone in Austria making your claim false. And for third time Finland wasn't made commie even after loosing the war once again.fuser wrote:I did not credited a superior German air force. He couldn't take malta without his supplies reaching to him but can invade Egypt?
In April, Hitler was forced to intervene in the Balkans which led to the campaign of that name; it was also known as the German invasion of Yugoslavia and included the Battle of Greece. The subsequent campaign and the heavy German losses in the Battle of Crete convinced Hitler that air drops behind enemy lines, using paratroopers, was no longer feasible unless surprise was achieved. He acknowledged that the chances of success in an air operation of that kind were low. Hitler lived up to his word, the German airborne forces did not undertake any such operations again. This had important consequences for Malta, as it indicated the island was only at risk from an Axis siege. In June, Hitler attacked the Soviet Union under Operation Barbarossa. Fliegerkorps X departed for the Eastern Front, and the Regia Aeronautica was left to continue its ineffective hit and run tactics against Malta in the coming months.[77] Geisler, commanding the remnants of Fliegerkorps X, could only count upon mine-laying aircraft from Kampfgeschwader 4 (KG 4) and Ju 87s in night operations. Supply issues were bad, the small German force left was forced to abandon operations on 22 April 1941. By early May 1941, the Luftwaffe had flown 1,465 strike, 1,144 fighter and 132 reconnaissance missions for just 44 losses.[78] III./Kampfgeschwader 30 (KG 30) and III./Lehrgeschwader 1 (KG 1) flew sporadic night attacks during April.[79]
fuser wrote:Sorry, but its the "Russian way" is not an evidence. For, the sixth time you have failed to produce any evidence for your claims (any document, links? Nothing, right)
fuser wrote:Only that, if you had been paying more attention, you would had realized it was never a question.
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