[Comrade Junichi]

Hey, I'm looking for some more links, quotes, statistics, and such for the support of Stalin. I know not all of you support him, so I'm asking those who do. I've been reading a bunch of anti-Stalin writing, so I'm moving into pro-Stalin.

[Generalissimo Talonius]

Well, the problem with looking for Stalin numbers ( ie number of dead people ) is like looking for Holocaust evidence : it doesn't exist. Instead, personal memories have to be used, which makes things infinitely more complex. I doubt very much that you will find very much factual evidence about Stalin ,and even Hitler for that matter , because such evidence does not exist or was destroyed by their enemies. Some things may just be forever lost to history ...

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

because such evidence does not exist or was destroyed by their enemies.

Why would their enemies destroy evidence against them??? On the contrary...it is their enemies that have preserved eveidence against them.

Proving the Holocaust?? Thats very easy!! German documents DO exist!! Not to mention the hundreds of videos and pictures the Germans themselves took of their acts...becasue they were very proud of it. Not to mention the actual camps...and of course thousands of survivors.

Now all of this exists for Stalin too. Soviet Archives have everything in them. USSR kept documents on everything that happened in the state If someone went through the Soviet Penal System...guess what!!...there are documents about them in the archives!!!

So these docuemtns have been studies and examined since 1989 now...and the numbers are out....and tons of books are out about them. Of course none of those books are accepted by "respectful" historians. Guess why!!!


Survivors?? Sure...hell people came in and out of prisons just like they do everywhere else in the world.


I don't know what the fuss is all about. I lived in a "Stalinist"society in Albania. To us it wasn't any different than prison elsewhere in the world. You did something bad...you went to jail...where you got your ass rapped as in any jail in the world. Tough shit!! In the whole country of Albania...we had 700 prisoners. But if you read western accounts of Albania...you will think everyone was behind bars working at the stone quarry for evil uber-diktator Enver Hoxha!! Thats not the way it was. Prison was tough...yes...but where is prison a joy ride?? There was no crime in Albania. At night...stores were left open. A cop went around with the keys for all the stores to lock them up at night...but the workers there didn't bother to lock the doors...and no one stole anything.

And who is making the fuss over the jails in the USSR or in Albania or elsewhere??? The US!!! Would they like to tell us what happened in US jails in the 20s and 30s??? Would they like to tell us about how black prisoners were treated...or how women prisoner were treated?? Would they like to tell us about the thousands of murders every year in US jails...or the tens of thousands of sexual assaults...


So they make a big fuss becasue Stalin put in jail people like Solzhenitsyn??? So whats the problem...Solzhenitsyn was a fascist sympathizer.

Would they like to tell us about how many thousands of people were arrested in the 20s and 30s for being communists??? Would they like to tell us how many tens of thousands of people were exiled out of the US in the 20s and 30s for being communists???

Ah but it was ok for them to do it back than...becasue communists were a threat to the "American way of life"...but fascist sympathizers and agents of imperialism were not a threat to the USSR???


So they complain becasue Stalin put to work the prisoners on construction projects. Would they like to tell us how the US Army was called in to put down strikes of workers and to force workers back to work at gun point back in the 20s and 30s!!! Would they like to tell us why there were 2 machine gun posts at each end of the Golden Gate bridge...forcing the workers to break their strike and get back to work??? Would they like to tell us about their use of tanks, planes and gas to break up strikes and force workers back to work???

Ahhh...all those are forever erased from western history!!! So now they are reborn as moralistic creatures who have not done harm to anyone...and pass judgement on everyone else.

Bourgeouis hypocracy!!!


Personally I don't care about numbers or statistics. Thats a job for the petty bourgeois historians who have nothing better to do with their lives...but try to find out how many fascists Stalin killed...by forgeting how many Vietnamese the US killed.

Personally the only statistics I am interested in is in seeing how many workers have been killed and exploited over the years by this glorious capitalist system of ours. Want to be shocked??? Look no further than your own job...look how you are being screwed!!

So you want to spend your time looking at how many Stalin supposedly killed...or look at the death in your own world???


Oh yes...a lot of people died during Stalin's period. No shit...it was a revolution...how do you get rid of a fascist??? How do you get rid of a Bush...or an ENRON executive??? Wht do you think the imperialists do when the workers rise up to take their factories???

Than you will understand what happened in the USSR at the time...and than you will understand the true brutal nature of capitalism...that will massacre workers and peasants by the millions to preserve its exploitation!!

Remember Vietnam!! Remember Korea!! Remember Iraq!!! THAT...is capitalism.


Anyway....I just feel like ranting now...not discussing figures...so you'll have to excuse me.

[Cassius Clay]

Dam Comrade Junichi were all those links I gave you not enough?

[GlobalJustice]

Tovarish Spetnaz, what do you think of the Baltic-White Sea canal?

Worth it?

[Proctor]

I read the Gulag Archipelago in the holidays. It was very good, and I recommend it to all you die hard communists. If you still think it is bullshit by the end, well..

And just so you know, its not about how communism sux and all that crap. In fact "So everyone who expects this to be a political expose, may they slam its covers shut now". It is just about the gulag system of Stalin.

I really don't know about Solzhenitsyn being a fascist symphasiser. He was originally a communist, and fought in WWII.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

He fought in WW2 where he was sending letters to other officers about the defeat of the Red Army and why the fascists should win in Russia. Hence he was arrested...for sympathizing with the enemy in time of war.

Next time you go hugging Solzhenitsyn...I suggest you read up on his trip to Franco's Spain and his work with good old Ronny and his bright ideas for Vietnam.

Yes...and while you are at it...read up on the millions of prisoners we had in Albania...

[sokath]

Man, I read heard somewhere, quite recently on the radio I think, that Stalin wanted to turn Moscow into a seaport on four separate oceans, the black, the baltic, the arctic, and the caspian... he wanted to achieve this through the construction of massive canals... isn't that nuts?

imagine how cool that would have been...


and I'm done.

S./

[Switters]

Generalissimo Talonius said: Well, the problem with looking for Stalin numbers ( ie number of dead people ) is like looking for Holocaust evidence : it doesn't exist.

Wow... I'm not sure how to respond to this comment. I assume you are just making it out of ignorance because it's a pretty dumb thing to say, hopefully you are not a holocaust denier. I would say that the Holocaust is probably the most documented event in history. Not only are there literaly hundreds of thousands of personal testimonies out there, but there is tons of documentary, film and physical evidence. Read some books, I suggest "Those Were the Days", "Hitler's War Against the Jews" or "The Shoah". Go to the holocaust museum in Washington, you can see huge books taken from the camps with the names and numbers of those who had been "evacuated" (gassed). Better yet go to Poland and visit Auchwitz-Birkenau where you can see claw marks on the walls of the gas chambers and rooms filled with human hair and shoes. Or go to Majdonek, a death camp so well preserved that it could be turned operational in a couple of days, you can see a dome filled with human ash. Or even better go to your local synagogue or Jewish Community Center, find a group of old people and I'm sure you could find evidence of the Holocaust. There's a good chance you'll find someone with a 7-digit number tattooed on their arm. Despite what they teach in Palestinian schools today the Holocaust was clearly all too real.

[GlobalJustice]

Cool, sokath, except 200,000 ppl died building one canal between the Baltic and the White Seas, that in the end, couldn't even handle a destroyer.

Saw in:
Conquest, Robert. "Stalin" 1991.

[sokath]

Oh agreed GJ, I'm not counting the human cost in what an astounding feat it would be to turn an incredibly-land-locked city into a giant port.

S./

[Generalissimo Talonius]

If you show me some evidence of 6 million dead, hard evidence, then I will believe you, but German documents simply do not exist. Show them to me if they do. Plus, even according to documents from internal German government documents, there couldn't have been more than 11 million Jews in all of Europe including Russia. Do even want to see that document ( taken from the Wannsee Conference notes, where supposedly, the Nazis plotted the "final solution" ) ?





If there was 5 million Jews in Russia ( UdSSR in the document ), that means that there could only be 6 million in all of Europe ! If that is so, Hitler would have had to kill EVERY SINGLE JEW IN EUROPE ! How then, could there be millions of so called "holocaust survivors".

For more evidence concerning Holocaust myths that have been perpetuated for decades to feed Israeli/Zionist interests, go to http://www.white-history.com/The%20Holo ... erview.htm. and more speciffically http://www.white-history.com/hwr64iv.htm . It state the case against the Holocaust AND provides documentation to support it's facts. Read it all. Faked memories, varying reports ; it's all there. I would like supporters to bring forth similar evidence, and then maybe then, I will believe you ...

By the way, I may have said that enemies destroyed the documents, but I meant to say forged of fabricated them. Remember : the victor doesn't write history, he re-writes it. So of course the Allies were gonna make the Germans seem worse than they really were. I mean, heaven forbid that the Germans wernt evil monsters.

Proof. That's all I want .

PPS - I've read two of those books you mentioned Switters, and they just present heresy, and not any actual proof.

[sokath]

First of all Talonius, you're linking to a white power website. At first I had hoped it was a mistake, but then I realized that's also where your pictures came from, and you wouldn't have been able to access them, had you not gone there.

That's my first point of contention, a racist, white power website. Just think about that for a moment. And I don't want to hear ANY bullshit about white-power just being "pride in the white race" because it's not. As white-power material IS racist, it clearly contravenes the forum rules. This unto itself is inapropriate, but the fact that you're violating rules pertaining to racism... not good at all.

So please take your neo-nazi bullshit and don't bring it back. You are, once again, banned for 24 hours. When you come back, I expect you to think about what you're talking about and what you choose to believe, because quite frankly, holocaust deniers are idiots.

This is the second time, third strike, you're out.

------------------------

That ends my business side of the message; now on to the personal response. Are you going to believe Nazi numbers off a Nazi document on a white-power website? Any person with a thread of logic would say no, but sadly, you're spitting them back to us like it's the gospel truth. As Switters said, go down to a local synagogue and tell the folks there that the Holocaust is a sham. See how well you make out. Or is associating with the Jews, rats of the Earth far too crass a thing for you to do?

For the love of God man, think about what you're saying here. Do you really want to be branded as a racist? Can you really, with a good conscience DENY all those things that happened? I don't need to quote Switters' message, you've already read it, but think about the things that he mentioned.

And you say that the books he cites are based on heresay? what are you showing us? Two scanned, digitized pieces of paper that tell us that there were no more than 11 million jews in eurasia? Bah, that's heresay! There's even a place that is "judenfrei"- free of jews! How can you possibly believe something like that, it's absolutely ridiculous.

It's funny how one's opinion of someone else can be shattered in a manner of seconds. Grow up.

S./

[Switters]

Bringing up evidence from a white power website. Wow! I was not expecting that. Just a little anecdote first. I went to Poland with a Holocaust survivor who when asked what he thought about people who deny the Holocaust he said: "I wish they were right, because then I would still have my family."

But anyway, I don't have any evidence, because, shockingly, I don't really run into Holocaust deniers that often. But you pretty much lost all credibility with that link you sent so I'm not even going to bother doing any research. White history! Haha. You should have just sent me to the KKK site.

I'm sorry you believe these things, I really am. I suggest you go to a university and ask a professor who's knowledgable in these things for proof. Just call them up and go "I don't believe the Holocaust happened, can you show me proof" and I'm sure they'd be willing to set you straight. And I think you should do some serious soul-searching, because buddy, you are dead wrong on this issue. One of these days you should go visit Auschwitz-Birkenau or Majdonek. Stop reading white supremacist literature, it's not chicken soup for the soul. I urge anyone on this board who has the same misguided views of the Holocaust because of the Israeli government or whatever to do the same.

But anyway I'm not going to enter into this discussion further because as Noam Chomsky says: "the Holocaust was the most extreme atrocity in human history, and we lose our humanity if we are even willing to enter the arena of debate with those who seek to deny or underplay Nazi crimes."

[CasX]

I haven't read this whole thread but Holocaust Revisionism goes way too far.

Who the hell would believe an insane white supremist website anyway? Maybe an insane white supremist?

The Chomsky quote is very good. Chomsky rocks.

[sokath]

I'd just like to post a quotation that I think we should all think about now that this is done with.

The malicious treatment of the Jews and other "undesirables" at the hands of the Nazis is referred to as the Holocaust. It has become a symbol of evil in our times. Like many symbols, the Holocaust has become sacrosanct. To many people, both Jews and non-Jews, the Holocaust symbolizes the horror of genocide against Jews, homosexuals, "Gypsies," Soviet prisoners of war, and the handicapped. Some modern anti-Semites have found that attacking the Holocaust causes as much suffering to some Jews as attacking Jews themselves. The term for attacking any aspect of the symbology or mythology of the Holocaust is "Holocaust Denial." It seems to be the main motivation for the Institute for Historical Review and its Journal of Historical Review which since 1980 has been publishing articles attacking the accuracy of this or that claim about the Holocaust. Yes, one "historical" journal devoted almost exclusively to the issue of making the Holocaust seem like an exaggeration of biased historians. This institute was founded in 1978; it claims to be a "research, educational and publishing center devoted to truth and accuracy in history." If truth and historical accuracy were the only goals of this group, I doubt that it would cause such an uproar. However, it seems that its promoters are as concerned with spreading prejudice as they are with truth. Thus, even those inaccuracies which they correctly identify are met with scorn and derision. For they never once deal with the central question of the Holocaust. They deal with numbers: were there six million or four million or 2 million Jews who died or were killed? They deal with technical issues: could this shower have been used as a gas chamber? Were these deaths due to natural causes or not? Did Hitler issue a Final Solution order or not? If so, where is it? I am not saying that these are not legitimate issues, nor am I saying that such inquiries should be taboo. What I'm saying is that the Holocaust deniers do not deal with questions concerning the racial laws that led to the arrest and imprisonment of millions of Jews in several countries for the "crime" of race. They do not concern themselves with the policy of herding people like animals and transporting them to “camps” where those who did not die of disease were starved to death or murdered, or, if they were “fortunate,” lived to perform forced labor. They don’t address the moral issues of medical experimentation on humans, of persecution of homosexuals and the infirm. Why not?

Michael Shermer devotes two chapters of Why People Believe Weird Things (1997) to the arguments of the Holocaust Deniers. (In Denying History: Who Says the Holocaust Never Happened and Why Do They Say It? [2000] Shermer and co-author Alex Grobman devote nine chapters to the subject.) He takes up many of their arguments and refutes them one by one. For example, one of the favorite appeals of the Holocaust deniers is to demand some proof that Hitler gave the order for the extermination of the Jews (or the mentally retarded, mentally ill, and physically handicapped). Holocaust deniers point to Himmler's telephone notes of November 30, 1941, as proof that there was to be no liquidation of the Jews. The actual note says: "Jewish transport from Berlin. No liquidation." Whatever the note meant, it did not mean that Hitler did not want the Jews liquidated. The transport in question, by the way, was liquidated that evening. In any case, if Hitler ordered no liquidation of the Berlin transport, then liquidation was going on and he knew about it. Hitler's intentions were made public in his earliest speeches. Even as his regime was being destroyed, Hitler proclaimed: "Against the Jews I fought open-eyed and in view of the whole world....I made it plain that they, this parasitic vermin in Europe, will be finally exterminated." Hitler at one time compared the Jews to tuberculosis bacilli which had infected Europe. It was not cruel to shoot them if they would not work or if they could not work. He said: "This is not cruel if one remembers that even innocent creatures of nature, such as hares and deer when infected, have to be killed so that they cannot damage others. Why should the beasts who wanted to bring Bolshevism be spared more than these innocents?"

In my view, however, the racist community doesn't believe its false notions about the Holocaust for any of the reasons for weird beliefs listed by Shermer. They believe them because such beliefs are empowering. They make the believer feel superior and they allow evil to be rationalized as good. Ultimately, many weird beliefs are the beliefs of groups, not isolated individuals. Understanding the dynamics of social belief is no small undertaking and certainly goes beyond wishful thinking and laziness. The Holocaust deniers feed off of each other's anti-Semitism. But what gave birth to their hatred of the Jews? Resentment and projection of their own inadequacies onto another race? Perhaps. That was Sartre's argument, following Nietzsche's lead, in Anti-Semite and Jew. The Holocaust Denial seems based upon wanting to believe because the belief fits in with the believer’s prejudices.

Regards,

S./

[Yeddi]

Man, I read heard somewhere, quite recently on the radio I think, that Stalin wanted to turn Moscow into a seaport on four separate oceans, the black, the baltic, the arctic, and the caspian... he wanted to achieve this through the construction of massive canals...

Problem is Sokath, gettign off that terrible topic, The canals would've been frozen for half the year

[Simon Ostap]

Geez, I feel so uninformed on this board sometimes.

I just thought I'd bring up that I've also read/been reading the Gulag Archipelago. And it's according to Solzhenitsyn that the 'enemy' he was conversing with that got him arrested was a friend of his in Germany occupied Ukraine.

Of course, right this instant that I think about it, the book later states that communication with Russian POWs would have been impossible, since Russia apparently had abandoned them. So, either you're correct that he was a fascist, or theres some other hole in his argument.

I suppose I find it disheartening that I've read such a large book and am now being told I was lied too. I have to admit, most of it did seem far fetched; stories of children being arrested for taking food from communal farms, talk of one prisoner being given a tenner for stealing a spool of thread. Of course, when I questioned this, most people simply looked at me like "Yeah, don't you know... Stalin was a monster! Of course it happened."

It seems silly for me to be here asking for the truth, on a board filled with both supporters and enemies of Stalin. I guess in the end we all just conform to different propaganda. I'm saying this not because just one side of the argument must be distorted, but both sides. I imagine the truth is buried far under accusations, but we may never know.

As for the holocaust, I've seen footage, I've heard proof, and I know it happened. But the Gulags, the way people simply nod and inform me, it happened, the way my Grandparents curse Russia for what happened before they came to Canada.

Let's just say I'd like to know what really happened if anyone can offer me some bi-partial information.

[sokath]

Yeah, that would have been unfortunate. Although I'm sure they would have figured something out... maybe by using prisoners to swim through the freezing water 24/7 to keep the water from staying still long enough that it could freeze.. *ahem*

S./

[Russian]

Soviet Archives have everything in them. USSR kept documents on everything that happened in the state If someone went through the Soviet Penal System...guess what!!...

bullshit... Russia was pretty backward when uncle Joe came to power. How the fuck would you expect them to keep accurate documents on every prisoner who went through Gulags? Especially if they sent people to mine in conditions that caused 30%-50% mortality rate...

So these documents have been studies and examined since 1989 now...and the numbers are out....and tons of books are out about them.

It is very possible that a large percent of soviet archives have not been released by the government.

agh, shit, a fat georgian SOB took over power in Russia, eliminated political opposition, took a shit on all communist dogma, put his face on every corner, made people into slaves of the state killing a shit load of them, fucked up big time during WW2 (causing lives), died, was condemned and thrown in a cement pitch outside the Kremlin by the commies... and yet we still have people kissing his ass... GOD people, what the fuck is wrong here???