[noemon]

@noemon

The Serbs wanted to partition out Bosnia and Izetbegovic wanted to keep the multi-ethnic nature of Bosnia where the Serbs, Croats and Muslims lived together under one country. That's not what the Bosnian Serbs wanted though. This was the reason why you had Serbs taking up arms against the Bosnian Serb army to defend the Bosnian Federation against the territorial and genocidal carve up of Bosnia. The goal of the Bosnian Serbs was to simply create a nationalistic "Greater Serbia" where only Serbs were allowed to live and nobody else.

Bosnia was essentially a province of Yugoslavia(in fact a province of Serbia proper), that was a multi-ethnic state where the Serbs, Croats and Muslims lived together under one country. The Serbs did not want partition but since the Bosniaks would settle for nothing other partition then the same self-determination principle would obviously apply to the Serbs in Bosnia as it applied for the Bosniaks in Yugoslavia!!! And that's what happened in the end anyway.

So? Who was more responsible for the war? The Serbs who wanted a single country? The Serbs who said ok fine, you want to break up that's fine but same principle applies to us. The Serbs who offered peace only to be given middle-fingers?

[Politics_Observer]

@noemon

We simply don't agree. Yes I have been to Bosnia. I am sure @Sandzak who is a Bosnian himself might tell you that it sure seems like I have been there. He is a native of those parts, unlike yourself who is a native of Greece. It was the SERBS who wanted a partitioning of Bosnia and not the Bosniaks. Milosevic and Tudjman were reported to negotiate some of these things behind the backs of the Bosniaks. Milosevic invaded Croatia too because they had Serbs in Croatia unlike in Slovenia. He partitioned out Croatia too along ethnic lines until the Croats later on retook some of their territory.

[noemon]

The Bosniaks wanted partition from Yugoslavia to free themselves from the Serbs, the Serbs said fine, break off but you can't have the Serbs after all they don't want to live under your hostile country anyway. The Bosniaks said no we shall keep the Serbs despite them being 40% of the population and again and again and again the Bosniaks rejected the peace offers, until all shit hit the fan, eventually the Serbs broke off anyway as if it were possible to live under the rule of a hostile nation that hated them.

Our identities do not change the facts. You fought for something, obviously you will convince yourself of the righteousness of your cause.

[Politics_Observer]

@noemon

I felt we were a little too late in getting involved. We were acting too much as a bystander like a big crowd that watches a criminal commit a violent assault against a victim but does nothing to stop it. The "by stander effect." That's part of the reason why the International Community never came to the rescue of the Bosnians until 3 years later when genocide was being committed against them. The "by stander effect."

[Politics_Observer]

@noemon

I just want to leave this here for you from a reliable and authoritative source.

Starting in April 1992, Serbia set out to “ethnically cleanse” Bosnian territory by systematically removing all Bosnian Muslims, known as Bosniaks. Serbia, together with ethnic Bosnian Serbs, attacked Bosniaks with former Yugoslavian military equipment and surrounded Sarajevo, the capital city. Many Bosniaks were driven into concentration camps, where women and girls were systematically gang-raped and other civilians were tortured, starved and murdered.

In 1993, the United Nations (UN) Security Council declared that Sarajevo, Goradze, Srebrenica and other Muslim enclaves were to be safe areas, protected by a contingent of UN peacekeepers. But in July 1995, Serbs committed the largest massacre in Europe since World War II in one such area, Srebrenica. An estimated 23,000 women, children and elderly people were put on buses and driven to Muslim-controlled territory, while 8,000 “battle-age” men were detained and slaughtered. The so-called safe area of Srebrenica fell without a single shot fired by the UN.

In 1994, NATO initiated air strikes against Bosnian Serbs to stop the attacks. In December 1995, U.S.-led negotiations in Dayton, Ohio (The Dayton Peace Accords) ended the conflict in Bosnia, and a force was created to maintain the ceasefire. Since the end of the conflict, the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia (ICTY) at The Hague has charged more than 160 persons. Convictions have included Serb, Croat and Bosniaks, though Serbians and Bosnian Serbs have faced the majority of charges. In 2001, former-President Miloševic was captured, but he died in his cell in 2006. Radovan Karadžic, the supreme commander of the Bosnian Serb armed forces, was captured in 2008, and is being tried in The Hague on genocide charges. Ratko Mladic, chief of staff of the Bosnian Serb Army, was captured in May 2011 and is charged with 11 counts, including genocide and crimes against humanity.

https://hmh.org/library/research/genoci ... nia-guide/

[noemon]

You still have not provided a single reason to explain why you were openly egging the Bosniaks to reject the peace plans and opt for war. You did not gain anything by rejecting the peace plans other than causing large scale atrocities committed by all sides.

Well you sent Yugoslavia back to the dark ages so for some in your administration, like Zimmerman, that may have been the plan all along.

The US was the primary reason a war was happening in the first place.

The monuments you built to defend your actions and the words you placed in them does not change the fact that the Bosniaks were rejecting Peace and that the US was instructing them to do so.

Since you achieved absolutely nothing by these rejections one would have thought that you would at least have the hindsight and decency to admit that you were wrong to opt for war instead of peace.

[Potemkin]

@noemon



That will never happen. It's the Balkans.

"Forget it Jake. It's the Balkans."

[Atlantis]

@Politics_Observer, it didn't stop the war, on the contrary, it started the wars and the disintegration of the West. Trump's isolationism was just the consequence of America's failed interventions. Sometimes it's better not to intervene. There are always two sides to every story, but your war-narrative ignores the other side. You won the battle for Kosovo and lost the war for the ME.

[Politics_Observer]

@noemon @Atlantis

We weren't trying to "egg on anybody." We didn't want anything to do with the Balkans. We were just in Somalia with that whole "Black Hawk Down" fiasco. Plus we were just involved in Desert Storm. Then we had the Vietnam War in our recent past at the time. We weren't eager to get involved in the violent break up of Yugoslavia. We were hoping that perhaps Europe could take a lead there. You would think the Europeans would learn something from the holocaust of the Jews during World War II and would be willing to take a lead role in stopping things in the violent break up of Yugoslavia once they started to spin out of control and turn into a genocide. But they didn't, so eventually we had to get involve.

[Odiseizam]

We weren't trying to "egg on anybody." We didn't want anything to do with the Balkans. We were just in Somalia with that whole "Black Hawk Down" fiasco. Plus we were just involved in Desert Storm. Then we had the Vietnam War in our recent past at the time. We weren't eager to get involved in the violent break up of Yugoslavia. We were hoping that perhaps Europe could take a lead there. You would think the Europeans would learn something from the holocaust of the Jews during World War II and would be willing to take a lead role in stopping things in the violent break up of Yugoslavia once they started to spin out of control and turn into a genocide. But they didn't, so eventually we had to get involve.

this is most unique propaganda presentation in the last month since I am active here! just one question were in sfor feeding You just with tempered biased food or there were also propaganda classes for further biased lobotomy?

must say You are right when say there was ethnocide and genocid around all rebelled territories, boaniaks in srpska and serbs in dalmatia predominantly along croats in hercegovina, but for that alone fault goes to usA who seen few opportunities in the partition of now ex-Yu ... fingerpointing Serbia as culprit its not naive but stupid, they were played like rats in a maze, and just responded as they can when the pot got boiled!

1. first strong compact Yugoslavia entering in eU would mean compacting eU in superstate and leaving usA with empty hands to control any potential rendezvous between eU and Russia tho they had but ex-Yu was with greater potential as melting-pot federation unlike baltik states or romania and bulgaria ... there was us strategist that correctly said if earlier in the past century europe was controlled by conflicts in and around central europe, later it would be done through balkans, and I think at the moment happens again that, as if european are blackmailed [1][1] so usA would not lit again the spark, its good arranged spinn and the they must follow!

2. there was fear in usA that this federation can stood later in russian interests because greater antifascist sympathy among the population for ussR, but also kgb has been infiltrated on many levels in the society for what even today there is not clear cut how wide and deep ...

3. Yugoslav Army presented huge thread in any circumstance for west [1] it was fed by nato with their own experience what was just topping on its own guerilla and russian earlier, what started as yu-west-pumping after titos split with stalins bureau, so in wake of 90's redistribution of power geocentrically they (usA) were more secured to have presence in more western'baslkan countries and controlling them one by one instead whole federation at once!

now check this out, usA was also prime culprit behind wwI wwII and for sure in future wwIII, know that this is too good to be true, but actually usA is puppet state in hands of shadowy elites that push own nwo agenda, and I dont blame anyhow american people for what their founding fathers have done when aligned with banc'corp colonialists and freemasonry, but this is topic for another thread so I wouldn chock this one with it, and I would advise the same to others - open new thread and we can debate further on usA history ...

[Politics_Observer]

@Odiseizam

OOOKKKKAAAAY THERE BUDDY! WHATEVER YOU SAY! KEEP SMOKING THAT CRACK PIPE.

[Odiseizam]

haha @Politics_Observer yours is baby stuffed with lsd crack pcp and fentalyn all together, mine pure natural opium!!! cmon is this best You can, even not reconstructing at least one proposition of mine!? why then starting a thread if You are not ready to debate? ok, take Your time, maybe later

[noemon]

@noemon @Atlantis

We weren't trying to "egg on anybody." We didn't want anything to do with the Balkans.

Honestly mate, please read the stuff already posted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_plans_proposed_before_and_during_the_Bosnian_War

On 18 March 1992, all three sides signed the agreement; Alija Izetbegović for the Bosniaks, Radovan Karadžić for the Bosnian Serbs and Mate Boban for the Bosnian Croats. On 28 March 1992, after a meeting with US ambassador to Yugoslavia Warren Zimmermann in Sarajevo, Izetbegović withdrew his signature and declared his opposition to any division of Bosnia.

The Owen–Stoltenberg plan was again rejected by the Bosniaks resuming hostilities in 1994.

Please note that both these plans predate the atrocities and had any of these peace plans been accepted, there would not have been atrocities.

Of course you were egging the Bosniaks on because the real project was not peace or to save anybody but to leave ashes behind. The USSR had just collapsed, US intellectuals had declared the end of history and the total victory of the US.

That arrogance and hubris of yours was the beginning of the end(the prologue) that we are currently witnessing today with Trump being the epilogue. Hopefully, we can have a break before seeing the end credits.

[Politics_Observer]

@noemon

Well I am not going to debate the politics of the Yugoslavian wars as we are never going to agree. However, I wanted to share something different that came out of the war. This particular video is about those Bosnian children who were conceived by rape during the Bosnian War. These kids wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for the war. Can you imagine that? A lot of them don't know who their father is because their father was a rapist who impregnated their mother. Wow man. I think these children should be recognized as war victims and I have sympathy for them.

[noemon]

Well I am not going to debate the politics of the Yugoslavian wars as we are never going to agree.

You mean because it is not convenient to you, I understand, you would rather propagandise the Serbs as the eternal evil despite the fact that the Bosniaks refused all peace plans that led to all those atrocities and they did that because they were instructed to do that by the USA as it has been proven.

Have you even considered that there also children on the Serbian side under a similar situation. Do these even matter to you at all or do children of a particular group have a special passport for feelings?

I grew up with Bosniak and Serb children, I was 7-15 when this happened, most of these children found refuge in Greece. One child 9 years old lived for 2 years with my auntie as a foster parent, he was then sent back to his family(not parents) once his bullet wounds healed and some normality returned. We had holidays together and several dinners every year. Greeks did everything they could to help anyone they could. Yugoslavian children came to our schools & churches en mass.

The Yugoslav experience was traumatic to all of us, in different levels of course. That is why Clinton is a dirty name and will always be.

[Politics_Observer]

@noemon

I know know noemon, it seems to me you are showing some of your own biases.

[noemon]

Every single person in here that runs out of argument says the same thing, always and without fail.

I'm not the one dramatising this political matter for effect. You are.

Instead of talking real politics you want identity brownie points.

[Politics_Observer]

@noemon

I am going to bow out. We simply are not going to agree. The war was a long time ago and it's time to move on and look to the future. What's done is done.

[noemon]

@noemon

I am going to bow out. We simply are not going to agree. The war was a long time ago and it's time to move on and look to the future. What's done is done.

For the record, you 're the one who started the conversation in the first place mate and in a totally unrelated thread as well.

[Politics_Observer]

@noemon

I don't know mate, you're the one who took offense when I said "It's the Balkans." When you took offense, the conversation, the way it went, was a natural progression. I didn't realize one needed to walk on egg shells around here.