[Comrade Ogilvy]

I want sufficient evidence that Stalin killed people.
Thank you

[Maxim Litvinov]

What type of evidence do you want?

* If you're looking for evidence that he shot, stabbed etc. people directly, then I'm not sure it exists (or at least, not to kill people - there are stories about him going shooting, though) - because he didn't kill anyone in this way.
* If you're talking about less direct "casualties" of Stalin, it depends how you class such figures. Presumably, you're not talking about "victims of repression" - namely possibly innocent people that died as a result of what is commonly seen as poor governmental management or 'terror'. Such figures are obviously shrouded in debate.
* I'm not sure if you're willing to include people convicted on spurious grounds - such as in some show trials. Because, after all, they were found guilty in some *court of law*, however bad the justice might be perceived by some. And they weren't *tried* by Stalin, and perhaps in all cases were perceived to be guilty, in any case.
* I'm not sure if you want to include people who died as a result of inaction, where Stalin could have reasonably saved them - eg by intervening in a case of unjust punishment. That's too hard to evaluate.
* I'm not sure if you want to include people who might have died due to negligence, or due to the failures of the system that Stalin presided over, but nevertheless who were not in any way led deliberately to their deaths by Stalin or official policy.
* I'm not sure whether you want to include contentious Politburo decisions - like those concerning the Katyn massacre. If you accept the Bolsheviks were responsible, you might just as easily pass the buck to Beria as Stalin.
* Finally, there might be cases where it seems that Stalin personally ordered the death of a person whom any sane individual would agree was undeserving of punishment. But then, you will still get people saying Meierhold deserved to die, or that eyewitness accounts about Stalin aren't accurate on this.

So, really, an uncontentious death would be where Stalin, in front of dozens of witnesses, or on a piece of paper, announced: "I know this person is guilty of nothing, it is plain he is no threat to the state, but I want him killed for no good reason, and in fact I'll even do it myself". Such cases do not exist, but then again I don't know of such cases with any 20th C ruler of this nature really.

So, clarify what you're looking for, and I'll try to tell you what little I know. And then, no doubt, whatever testimony I come up with will be attacked as non-credible.... But, anyway, it'll give you an idea of the types of sources out there.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Its a pointless question...EVERY leader killed people...

When people say "Stalin killed pople!" they are all so horrified. Well Bush kills people...every day...Capitalism kills thousands of people a day...

So yes he did "kill" people. Show me one leader who hasn't...

[Comrade Ogilvy]

So, clarify what you're looking for, and I'll try to tell you what little I know.

I've heard myths about him killed people who had done nothing wrong and people could be dragged down from their homes and being shot.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

I've heard myths about him killed people who had done nothing wrong and people could be dragged down from their homes and being shot.

Again...you have to realize...its not HIM doing it. Its not as if Stalin orderd that some schmuck in Baku or wherever should be arrested. This is local police business...nothing to do with Stalin...Just the same way that if US cops arrest you...its not becasue Bush told them to arrest you.

Were innocent people arrested and killed?? Of course...I challange you to find me one judicial system that doesn't prosecute innocent people?? It happens...not on purpose.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

So he never directly ordered someone to be killed?

This is interesting

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Yes he did order some people to be killed...not him personally but his signature was required on some people to be killed. The majority of people sentanced to death however went through other channels and had nothing to do with Stalin.

[Maxim Litvinov]

I got a bit confused between Meierhold and Mikhoels. Meierhold was indeed executed for his crimes, and Stalin signed the sentence. But, although he hadn't committed a crime that would have resulted in a death sentence in a standard court of law, he did still go on trial, and was not 'directly' killed by Stalin.

I'll also give a (unsourced) quote from Stalin, reportedly in 1950: "Meyerhold was a huge talent ... our Chekists don't understand artists who all have faults. The Chekists collect them and then destroy good people. I doubt Meyerhold was an Enemy of the People". Which gives you some insight into the ongoing debate - while some say Stalin's leadership or inaction often *fueled* the amount of arrests and wrongful convictions, Stalin was removed from simply 'ordering' people to be arrested or shot on a personal level, and was often genuinely *surprised* at the counter-revolutionary activities of some citizens, whilst still believing in trumped-up charges.

On Mikhoels (a famous Jewish actor), Stalin reportedly ordered Abakumov to arrange his death (murder) on the telephone. Svetlana Stalin remembers some parts, Mikoyan was present also for part of the 'order', and the details are elucidated in a couple of other books which I don't have, but do have the references for, if you want them. This is the most straightforward case of the lot of Stalin ordering a particular person killed, with eyewitnesses present.

There are other stories - most famously that of Stalin's *assassination* of Kirov, but most now are generally considered to be false, on the basis of the most recent evidence.

The main contention against Stalin is generally that he presided over a system which allowed - and indeed seemed to encourage at times - an unnecessarily high number of deaths/incarcerations for political reasons. There is obviously a huge debate about this too, however.

[Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu]

On Mikhoels (a famous Jewish actor), Stalin reportedly ordered Abakumov to arrange his death (murder) on the telephone. Svetlana Stalin remembers some parts, Mikoyan was present also for part of the 'order', and the details are elucidated in a couple of other books which I don't have, but do have the references for, if you want them. This is the most straightforward case of the lot of Stalin ordering a particular person killed, with eyewitnesses present.

This seems very uncharecteristic of Stalin.What do you think of this Tovarish?

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

On Mikhoels (a famous Jewish actor), Stalin reportedly ordered Abakumov to arrange his death (murder) on the telephone. Svetlana Stalin remembers some parts, Mikoyan was present also for part of the 'order', and the details are elucidated in a couple of other books which I don't have, but do have the references for, if you want them. This is the most straightforward case of the lot of Stalin ordering a particular person killed, with eyewitnesses present.


This seems very uncharecteristic of Stalin.What do you think of this Tovarish?

Svetlana overheard her father on the phone talking many times about such things...usually she totally misunderstood him since she was very young. I think she said she overheard Stalin on the phone after Gorky's death...and somehow concluded that Stalin had killed Gorky. That wasn't the case at all...

Either way...I'm not familiar with the Mikhoels case...

[Maxim Litvinov]

I'm only quoting the Mikhoels case as the only one cited by people as a suggested "direct order". I want to read what Malenkov has had to say on the issue (when I said 'Mikoyan', I meant 'Malenkov' earlier ), but haven't gotten around to searching it out.

It is generally assumed that Mikhoels was killed. Apart from the alleged eyewitnesses to the crime being ordered, and other accounts, the pathologists who viewed the body made it clear it was no accident - although it was originally framed to look like a lorry accident.

This, does not, of course, mean Stalin killed him. There are hints/evidence from Svetlana and Malenkov (apparently) that this was indeed the case, but I can't say for certain, myself.

Svetlana was born in 1926, and Mikhoels was killed in 1948. So, Svetlana wasn't too young, or muddled. If her testimony is wrong, then it is because she is straight out lying.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

I was talking about Gorky when I said she was too young. She overheard her father on the phone when they called him to inform him that Gorky had died.

I don't know what she says on Mikhoels...but if you say there are hints in her testimony that Stalin didn't do it...and then say that her testimony shows he did it...I'm not following you. What was her testimony???

[Maxim Litvinov]

I might have left a "not" out somewhere - apologies if this is the case.

Her testimony is basically in "Only One Year". Unfortunately, I've only got "Twenty Letters to A Friend" - her other major book - on hand.

Other than this one book I'm about to quote, I'm currently going on what I remember of Only One Year and other sources in saying the Mikhoels case is the only possible direct order of death I know of (other than possibly 'criminal proceedings')

This quote is from the recently-published, well-researched, but fairly anti-Stalin book by Simon Sebag Montefiore, entitled "Stalin: Court of the Red Tsar":

The Stalin Prize Committee sent Mikhoels to Minks to judge plays at Belorussian theatres. When this was reported to Stalin, he verbally ordered Abakumov to murder Mikhoels on the spot, specifying some of the details with Malenkov present. Abakumov gave the task to his deputy, and the Minsk MGB boss, invoking the Instantsiya...

*details of the actual murder*

... Stalin was informed of the killings (Mikhoels and a friend who was with him) probably before the bodies had been dumped in the street, and just as Svetlana was arriving to visit him at Kuntsevo. Stalin was on the phone, most likely to Tsanava: 'Someone was reporting to him and he listened. Then to sum up, he said, "Well, a car accident." I remember his intonation very well - it was not a question, it was a confirmation... He was not asking, he was proposing it, the car accident." When he had put down the phone, he kissed Svetlana and said. "Mikhoels was killed in a car accident."

At seven the next morning, two bodies were found sticking out of the snow. Mikhoels' body was returned to Moscow nad delivered... etc.

Polina Molotova - Molotov's wife claimed it was murder, and Yulia Kaganovich apparently told Mikhoels' daughter to "never ask about anything".

Montefiore doesn't reference very well, and I don't know which of the following references are referring to Malenkov, for instance, but here are the references:

On verbal orders to the actual killers from the Instantsiya: Victor Levaskov, Mikhoels Ubiystvo Mikhoelsa, pp. 464-74. Kostyrchenko, pp. 90-1. Svetlana OOY, pp. 140-1 ... [Abakumov was later arrested, and gave testimony] Abakukov's teminoy: Argumenty i Fakty, no, 19, 1992. etc.

And to show how far you have to dig around:

The axe wrapped in a towel: Brackman, p. 373, based on interview with Vasily Rudich who related testimony of Olga Shatunovskaya quoting Malenkov

!

That's all I know. [/quote]

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Well Svetlana's testimony is in no way convincing...He wasn't asking...he was saying..but she walked in only in the middle of the conversation...or maybe the man who he was talking to was not the man who informed him...and in fact Stalin was informing him what happened.

I don't know anything about Melankov "witnessing" this...as no such testimony is provided. I'm not doubting it exist...Iv never read it to examine it.

And I can't see why Stalin would even bother with an actor...

[Maxim Litvinov]

Svetlana's testimony makes sense. If she'd wanted to, she could have just said I heard Stalin say "Kill him now". Instead, she told it how she heard it - which is a less direct way. Notice, that Svetlana also heard Stalin talking about the 'accident' even before the police or authorities found out about it.

I agree it would be nice to review all the evidence, which is why I'll try to take the time to review the sources at some stage - and post the results, whatever they are.

I can tell you why Stalin would bother with an actor -- because around 1948, trials of those involved in the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee were being conducted, and Jews were being rounded up (including Molotova, and Meyerhold) if they'd had any involvement - because they were believed to be plotting in some way. Mikhoels was a prominent member of the Jewish committee, and also quite a famous man. A similar idea of a Jewish Plot also gave the impetus for the Doctors' Plot.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

I can tell you why Stalin would bother with an actor -- because around 1948, trials of those involved in the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee were being conducted, and Jews were being rounded up (including Molotova, and Meyerhold) if they'd had any involvement - because they were believed to be plotting in some way. Mikhoels was a prominent member of the Jewish committee, and also quite a famous man. A similar idea of a Jewish Plot also gave the impetus for the Doctors' Plot.

The Jews of the anti-fascist committee were being arrested for their involvment in Zionism...not becasue they were Jews. There were many prominent Jews that nothing was done to...Also I don't see why Stalin had to resort to murder outside of the judicial system to get rid of an actor. It makes no sense...

I'm not accusing Svetlana of lying...just that what she sayd doesn't necessarey support the calim that Stalin killed him. It really shows nothing of the sort.

As for Stalin finding out "before the police did"...I don't know about that. Maybe it wasn't publically announced until 7 in the morning...but I don't know when they were found by the police and I don't think the author can know either.

There's a lot of speculation...which makes little sense to me. Why go through that trouble...its pointless...

[Maxim Litvinov]

Jews were disproportionately represented, IMHO, in many of the show trials towards the end of the 1940s. I don't think the *facts* of the show-trials well represent the realities of the situation. Nevertheless, we both agree that Jews - rightly or wrongly - were strong targets at this time, due to the belief that they had been plotting to set up a Jewish homeland on Soviet territory and to undermine the government in other ways.

Read up on Mikhoels and you'll discover that he was more than simply the "Russell Crowe" of his day.

Svetlana's account - if true - does support the claim that Stalin killed Mikhoels. She says that Stalin was confirming on the phone that Mikhoels had been shot, using a tone of voice confirming that his actions had been carried out. It is clear the phone call was not simply the news being relayed back to Stalin, because Stalin was neither taken aback by the news, and the news came to Stalin *before* the body was discovered and the death made public. Svetlana recounts being told of the death *before* it was found out by the police. THis is what, no doubt, made her more suspicious.

We already know it was murder. We already know Abakumov was involved. It is just a matter of whether or not you believe Svetlana, and take the hint from various other sources - to link the murder directly to Stalin.

I agree that there's lots of speculation. As for it *not making sense* - well, seemingly many of the deaths that happened at the time were senseless, but they did happen.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Jews were disproportionately represented, IMHO, in many of the show trials towards the end of the 1940s. I don't think the *facts* of the show-trials well represent the realities of the situation. Nevertheless, we both agree that Jews - rightly or wrongly - were strong targets at this time, due to the belief that they had been plotting to set up a Jewish homeland on Soviet territory and to undermine the government in other ways.

Jews made up 30% of the Soviet Intelligentsia...even if they made up only 2% of the population. I think the disproportion was quite the other way...

And as for them stting up a Jewish homeland...the Jewish Autonomus Republic had already been established since the 30s and supported by Stalin.

Again...this was not an "anti-Jewish" campaign...but an anti-Zionist one.

Svetlana's account - if true - does support the claim that Stalin killed Mikhoels. She says that Stalin was confirming on the phone that Mikhoels had been shot, using a tone of voice confirming that his actions had been carried out. It is clear the phone call was not simply the news being relayed back to Stalin, because Stalin was neither taken aback by the news, and the news came to Stalin *before* the body was discovered and the death made public. Svetlana recounts being told of the death *before* it was found out by the police. THis is what, no doubt, made her more suspicious.

I don't see the "shot" part in that quote you gave of her.

And again...I can't see how Svetlana or the author can know when the police discovered the body. It was made public later in the morning..but the bodies could have been discovered much earlier. There is no way they can know then the police discovered them....

[Maxim Litvinov]

Sorry, sorry ... not shot.

I think the disproportion was quite the other way...

- Aw, come on. I don't mind argument, but do you have to attack everything just because you can?

All I said was "Jews - rightly or wrongly - were strong targets at this time, due to the belief that they had been plotting to set up a Jewish homeland on Soviet territory". Now, with the Jewish anti-fascist committee trials, and the Doctor's Plot soon afterwards, there were more prominent Jewish arrests than any other time in the USSR's history.

OK. Now for the morning bit. When the police discover a body, the matter is officially brought to the attention of the authorities and lots of people find out about it. There is lots of paperwork written. The story is made public very soon. Now, it is not difficult for someone to work out - or realise at the time - that they have been told something *the day before* (not simply - later in the morning) the crimescene has been discovered by the police.

I'm telling you - I want to look into the incident further. I have concerns as to whether Stalin was involved. What no-one has concerns about is (i) that it was a killing. (ii) that the Russian security services were involved (the killer admitted to the crime later on). We also know that members of the Bolshevik elite considered it a matter to be hushed up, and also a "murder" - even while the official story was 'lorry accident'. Now the fact that the murder was initially covered up is a bit strange, but it makes sense if Stalin *knew* it was murder, but didn't want the murder to be revealed.

This, again, does not mean he ordered it. And I can't see the point in speculating much more - as this is all just a bad whodunnit at the moment. When I'm next at the library, I will chase up a few sources and see if they offer us any more clues... But I just found two more sources in my own library that might prove useful:

1) I looked through Molotov's memoirs and the newly-published book by Sergo Beria, for instances of Mikhoels. I found this in Beria's book (Beria, My Father. pp. 211-2):

I well remember the death of Mikhoels in January 1948. I had seen him playing King Lear in Yiddish. I found this rather comic, the Yiddish sounding to me like some deformed dialect of German. Our newspapers alleged that he died in a car accident. One day, over lunch in our dacah, I asked my father what actually happened. In the presence of our guests he pretended not to hear me, but when we were alone again he scolded me. 'Why must you always be opening your mouth when you ought to keep quiet?' THen he added, laconically: 'Mikhoels was assassinated by terrorists.' He said no more than that.

Some years later he explained to me that Mikhoels had been assassinated on Stalin's orders, because he had become an eminent personality in Zionist circles. He enjoyed immense prestige among the Jews, no doubt partly undeserved. But Stalin could not put up with a Soviet citizen who was popular abroad as well as at home....

Incidentally, Sergo Beria says earlier that his father said Stalin was not at all anti-Semitic.

2) Another more enlightening section from Amy Knight's biography of Beria (p. 147):

More than any other figure in the Soviet Union, Mikhoels symbolized the Jewish cause. Mikhoels had traveled to Minsk, in Belorussia, with Jewish theater critic V.I. Golubov-Potapov. According to the official report, the two were summoned from their hotel to an urgent meeting and were killed en route by a truck, which then disappeared. After Stalin's death, however, Beria managed to get the true story, which he related in a letter to Malenkov. On questioning Abakumov, who had been imprisoned by Stalin in 1951, Beria learned that Stalin had ordered Abakumov to have Mikhoels killed, a task carried out by Deputy Minister of State Security S.I. Ogol'tsev and Belorussian MGB Chief Tsanava. Mikhoels and his companino were lured into a car and taken to Tsandava's dacha outside Minsk, where they were murdered. Their bodies were then dumped on the side of a road. When Beria learned of Tsanava's complicity, he ordered his arrest, along with that of Ogol'tsev.

I must say - although the initial evidence was scant, the more I read, the more guilty Stalin looks. The testimonies of Beria, the letter and the remembrances of Svetlana all fit together. The letter referred to, incidentally, was published in Argumenty and Facty, 19, May 1992, p. 5 and is dated 2 April 1953. (the same one referenced in an earlier post).

[Balthaak]

All that Stalin did bad, he did it in his own country. For the outside world, he was a great leader.