[Comrade Ogilvy]

Definitely the American revolution, who revived the idea of democracy after the Dark Ages set upon Europe. It had the most affect on the world to date, and had the longest-lasting effects. Many of the other revolutiond on that hardly lasted a century, the 1918 revolution lasted only 79 years, the French revolution lasting shorter than that with the rise of Napolean. Also, the Maoist revolution probably will not last the full 3 centuries and 2 decades (or, will be 2 decades in 2 years).

Dark Ages? You ever hear of the Renaissance? You see, the American continent was discovered during the early part of it.

[Attila The Nun]

Dark Ages? You ever hear of the Renaissance? You see, the American continent was discovered during the early part of it.

Didn't say that the Dark Ages encompassed everything from the fall of Rome to the American revolution. I'm just saying the coming of the Dark Ages buried the dreams of democracy until the American revolution, which revived them.

[Captain Hat]

The American Revolution was a Revolution, and not just an Independence movement.
It started out in 1765 as a protest movement against British colonial policy. One must understand that the various colonial charters all guaranteed the colonists the same rights as natural born Englishmen. When Parliament taxed without the consent of the colonists, the Americans deemed it a violation of their English Liberty.
The first revolutionary step was the union of the colonies. In 1765, people from Virginia and people from New Hampshire had more in common with England than with each other. Connecticut and Pennsylvania settlers were on the verge of a shooting war in present day Ohio. The whole idea of "American" was nearly preposterous at the time. However, Committees of Correspondance began uniting the colonies and the idea of "America" was born. At the 1st Continental Congress in 1774, Patrick Henry said "I am not a Virginian, but an American."
The idea of Independence itself was un heard of up until December 1775-January 1776. The great step toward independence was pushed to fruition by the military acheivements of 1775, and by Thomas Paine's Common Sense. In this famous pamphlet, Paine tells of the virtues of an independent America, the opportunity, in his words, "a chance to build the world anew." Paine suggested building a totally new system of government, a democracy without monarch and inherited titles, and without "the royal bastard" George III.
The war itself, however, I will concede, was a war of independence. When it was over, though, things seemed to fall apart. The states fought with eachother, threats to secede were made, and Congress was inadequate. Democracy without monarchy looked as though it would fail. This is where the last part of the Revolution occured. The creation, debate, and implementation of the Constitution was no easy manner. Once implemented, who would lead. The Federalist, lead by Hamilton, thought that only those of property should. The Democratic-Republicans, led by Jefferson felt that there shouldn't be any property requirements. Indeed, Jefferson won out in the "Revolution of 1800." This started a tradition in American politics that grew into Jacksonian Democracy, or politics for the people. This was the Revolution.

But, to be sure, the Dutch Revolt was amazing for its time. It created a Republic dominated by the Middle Class without an overbearing monarch.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

The American Revolution was a Revolution, and not just an Independence movement.
It started out in 1765 as a protest movement against British colonial policy. One must understand that the various colonial charters all guaranteed the colonists the same rights as natural born Englishmen. When Parliament taxed without the consent of the colonists, the Americans deemed it a violation of their English Liberty.

Why would anyone consent to being taxed?

But, to be sure, the Dutch Revolt was amazing for its time. It created a Republic dominated by the Middle Class without an overbearing monarch.

Which "Middle Class" are you mentioning? Vassals, Bourgeoisie, Middle Peasants, or the White collar workers (e.g. doctors, lawyers, teacher, etc.)?

[Yeddi]

'No Taxation without representation' is what they were fighting against NDS, CapHat's 'consent' was a bit misleading.

The American Revolution was the first revolution to be undertaken in the spirit of the enlightenment which was by and large a French based movement that was adopted by the American founding fathers.

You are talking (I suppose) of what's called "the government of Vichy" which wasn't in any way the government of France but a puppet state of the German Nazis and wasn't even exercing its fake power over half of the territory while being constantly harrassed by the French resistance.

The true government of France was in exile and based in London.

That's what the French would like us to believe. Petain was the leader of the 3rd Republic, he sued for peace and reinvented, the 3rd Republic. General Charles De Gualle was only a recently appointed general and in no way a representative of the government of France. Yes Vichy was a puppet state but it was simply continueing on the tradition of the 3rd Republic which had been set up by the Prussians anyway.
And as for the myth of the French Resistence, well aside from the communists and socialists, very few frenchmen resisted the Germans until they annexxed the whole country in late 1942.

[Clovis]

If one judges success by the continual adherement to the principles of the revolution then America's was clearly the most successful. The ideas of America's revolution are still the defining ideas in American's lives (low taxes, gun ownership, states rights vs. federalism, republican democracy, seperation of church and state). Most revolutions betry their ideals at some point (this was certainly true for France), but America never has. The immediate result of the American revolution, the Constitution, is the oldest (and most unchanged) extant constitution around. What other nation refers so passionately to a 18th century document when arguing modern problems?

[Comrade Ogilvy]

'No Taxation without representation' is what they were fighting against NDS, CapHat's 'consent' was a bit misleading.

What is meant by representation in that context ('No Taxation without representation')?

The American Revolution was the first revolution to be undertaken in the spirit of the enlightenment which was by and large a French based movement that was adopted by the American founding fathers.

What "enlightenment"? Enlightenment means "To give spiritual or intellectual insight to", so then why do you use it to describe an event?

And as for the myth of the French Resistence, well aside from the communists and socialists, very few frenchmen resisted the Germans until thy annexxed the whole country in late 1942.

So your saying that communists and socialists made up the bulk of the French resistance until Germany swallowed all of France?

[Batko]

Petain was the leader of the 3rd Republic, he sued for peace and reinvented, the 3rd Republic. General Charles De Gualle was only a recently appointed general and in no way a representative of the government of France. Yes Vichy was a puppet state but it was simply continueing on the tradition of the 3rd Republic which had been set up by the Prussians anyway.
And as for the myth of the French Resistence, well aside from the communists and socialists, very few frenchmen resisted the Germans until they annexxed the whole country in late 1942.

Completely false.
1. Petain didn't "reinvented" the 3rd Republic, he abolished it after his German backed coup on the 10th of July 1940. The true President of France Albert Lebrun was obliged to retire the 15th but never officially resigned and therefore remained the real elected President of the French Republic until 1944 and was send in jail in Germany in 1943. Petain only was a German puppet and his factious regime has nothing to do with the French Republic, and was named "l'état Français" = "the French state" (i.e of Germany).
2. The third republic had never been "set up by the Prussians", even if it's true that the 3rd rep. was created while the Prussians were occupying the country, but the assembly that instaured it was democratically elected by the French people, and was in no way comparable to the fake regime of Petain.
3. Happy to know by an Australian that my Grandfather is "a myth", as well as his brother who died in 1941 physically destroyed by his detention in a German concentration camp. (nb: they were not communist nor socialist.)

Ps: Sorry for the Off-Topic digression. Just had to say it by respect for my dear Grandfather memory.

[Captain Hat]

To your questions, NDS:

The phrase "No Taxation without Representation" is a protest slogan. The colonists shouted this in the protest phase of the Revolution. Taxation without Representation refers to the fact that the colonists were being taxed by Parliament, a political body in which they had no representation.

As to "The Enlightenment," Yeddi is refering to a period of European history (usually defined as the 18th Century), when philosophers, particularly the French philosophes, "Enlightened" the world about reason and government. At this same time, English scientists enlightened the world about, well, science. Some of the big names of this era include Voltaire and Rousseau.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Some of the big names of this [enlightenment] era include Voltaire and Rousseau.

Yes, and this is another reason why I think the French revolution was much more successful than any other revolution, because it produced/enhanced such great philosophers and philosophies of humanism, reason, intellect, logic, etc.: The American revolution and all other revolutions didn't or didn't as much. Or did they?

[Attila The Nun]

Yes, and this is another reason why I think the French revolution was much more successful than any other revolution, because it produced/enhanced such great philosophers and philosophies of humanism, reason, intellect, logic, etc.: The American revolution and all other revolutions didn't or didn't as much. Or did they?

The American revolution caused the French revolution.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Yes, and this is another reason why I think the French revolution was much more successful than any other revolution, because it produced/enhanced such great philosophers and philosophies of humanism, reason, intellect, logic, etc.: The American revolution and all other revolutions didn't or didn't as much. Or did they?

The American revolution caused the French revolution.

I agree that this is true using the logic that both peoples were fighting for independence from oppressive monarchies that heavily taxed both the rising bourgeoisie and the proletariat, peasantry ("slaves" [de facto serfs] in America), and the artisans; and hence acted in unison, by the American revolution starting the juggernaut of revolution. Even Spain's newly elected Socialist prime minister who ran on a pacifist platform against the continued stay of Spaniard troops in Iraq - and hence percieved as anti-America - affirmed his lack of anti-Americanism by saying in one of his speeches within the first few days of democratic victory that it is thank to America that "we" (Europe) has democracy, that it is America that gave birth to the modern era of democracy, which the rest of the world followed (and the implication was thanks to America that democracy exists in the first place for a socialist to have won in Spain, without the fear of an American CIA coup orchestrated with the stauch pro-Bush right-wing party that was ruling Spain for many decades).

[Captain Hat]

I would say that the American Revolution was the first to implement the ideas of the englightenment. However, the US was modeled on the principles of English philosophers, such as John Locke, as well as French ones. However, the French seemed to rely on Rousseau.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

I would say that the American Revolution was the first to implement the ideas of the englightenment. However, the US was modeled on the principles of English philosophers, such as John Locke, as well as French ones. However, the French seemed to rely on Rousseau.

John Locke was a Briton, and he died on October 28, 1704. Did he ever even step foot on America? How was his beliefs distinctly American?

[Captain Hat]

I never said Locke was an American nor that his ideas were distinctly American. I said he was an English Enlightenment philosopher and that the US founding fathers got some of their ideas about government from him.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

I never said Locke was an American nor that his ideas were distinctly American. I said he was an English Enlightenment philosopher and that the US founding fathers got some of their ideas about government from him.

I know you did not say he was an American, I was simply making a point, in comparison to the philosophers that the French revolution produced and or was enhanced by (though not necessarily produced, such as those who died prior to the revolution). Can you prove that:

"the US founding fathers got some of their ideas about government from him [John Locke]."?

[Captain Hat]

Yes, I can. Jefferson freely quoted Locke throughout the Declaration of Independence. Take for instance, "government derives its powers from the consent of the governed." Also, the "inalienble rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" There are others that the founding fathers used, but I would end up writing a book.

One could say the founders, Jefferson and John Adams foremost, created some of their own theories by blending the various ideas and philosophies of both the English and French Enlightenment thinkers.