[Saddam]

It is interesting that you still refuse to back up the statistics with fact. You as of yet have not provided me with the web site you got those figures from.

Your rebuttal to my point on the difference between South Korea and North Korea was irrelevent. Again the statistics are not backed up with locations. "comparably rampant" against what? Against the falsified figures brought out by the North Korean government. The fact of the matter is that given the chance many North Koreans would flee to the South if they could. South Koreans can go whereever they like whenever they like (except to areas controled by Brutal insular regimes).

Here are some real statistics for you (not biased opinons)

North Korea,

one of the world's most centrally planned and isolated economies, faces desperate economic conditions. Industrial capital stock is nearly beyond repair as a result of years of underinvestment and spare parts shortages. Industrial and power output have declined in parallel. The nation has suffered its tenth year of food shortages because of a lack of arable land, collective farming, weather-related problems, and chronic shortages of fertilizer and fuel. Massive international food aid deliveries have allowed the regime to escape mass starvation since 1995-96, but the population remains the victim of prolonged malnutrition and deteriorating living conditions. Large-scale military spending eats up resources needed for investment and civilian consumption. In 2003, heightened political tensions with key donor countries and general donor fatigue threatened the flow of desperately needed food aid and fuel aid as well. Black market prices continued to rise following the increase in official prices and wages in the summer of 2002, leaving some vulnerable groups, such as the elderly and unemployed, less able to buy goods. The regime, however, relaxed restrictions on farmers' market activities in spring 2003, leading to an expansion of market activity.


Military expenditures - percent of GDP: 22.9% (2003)

GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $1,000 (2003 est.)

Infant mortality rate:
total: 24.84 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 23 deaths/1,000 live births (2004 est.)
male: 26.59 deaths/1,000 live births

Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 71.08 years
male: 68.38 years
female: 73.92 years (2004 est.)

South Korea

Since the early 1960s, South Korea has achieved an incredible record of growth and integration into the high-tech modern world economy. Four decades ago GDP per capita was comparable with levels in the poorer countries of Africa and Asia. Today its GDP per capita is 18 times North Korea's and equal to the lesser economies of the European Union. This success through the late 1980s was achieved by a system of close government/business ties, including directed credit, import restrictions, sponsorship of specific industries, and a strong labor effort. The government promoted the import of raw materials and technology at the expense of consumer goods and encouraged savings and investment over consumption. The Asian financial crisis of 1997-99 exposed longstanding weaknesses in South Korea's development model, including high debt/equity ratios, massive foreign borrowing, and an undisciplined financial sector. Growth plunged to a negative 6.6% in 1998, then strongly recovered to 10.8% in 1999 and 9.2% in 2000. Growth fell back to 3.3% in 2001 because of the slowing global economy, falling exports, and the perception that much-needed corporate and financial reforms had stalled. Led by consumer spending and exports, growth in 2002 was an impressive 6.2%, despite anemic global growth, followed by moderate 2.8% growth in 2003. In 2003 the National Assembly approved legislation reducing the six-day work week to five days.

GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $17,700 (2003 est.)

Military expenditures - percent of GDP: 2.7% (FY03)

Infant mortality rate:
total: 7.18 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 6.68 deaths/1,000 live births (2004 est.)
male: 7.64 deaths/1,000 live births

Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 75.58 years
male: 71.96 years
female: 79.54 years (2004 est.)

These statistics are compiled by the UN and CIA and are the most trusted souce for statistics in the world. They are not based on opinion but fact. Please disprove them if you can.

Finally on the issue of Drugs -

for years from the 1970's into the 1990's, citizens of the Democratic People's Republic of (North) Korea (DPRK), many of them diplomatic employees of the government, were apprehended abroad while trafficking in narcotics. In recent years, police investigations in Taiwan and Japan have linked North Korea to large illicit shipments of heroin and methamphetamine, with the attempt by the North Korean merchant ship Pong Su to deliver 125 kg of heroin to Australia in April 2003 the most recent example of Pyongyang's involvement in the drug trade. All indications point to North Korea emerging as an important regional source of illicit drugs targeting markets in Japan, Taiwan, the Russian Far East, and China.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

My book, Campaigns of WWII, Day by Day, estimates Soviet military deaths at 11 million.

Ok, we can say, that's the highest estimate.

[Clovis]

However, Nazi Germany would have only put most of humanity at risk. America puts to a smaller extent, all of humanity at risk, and that is why I voted America.

What is humanity at risk for because of America?

[glinert]

I guarantee most recent article I will find it laying around my house in INterfax (you can trust everything they say) that 50 million died at there new estimate.

[Kamil]

Surely, it's America.

[RedStorm]

Who said the UK and why?

[Todd D.]

Number 1, Glinert, no, 50 million is a very very high estimate that borders on the absurd. 20 million deaths is a far more accurate estimate that is more universally held to. Just think about it, 50 million is 250 percent higher than all previous estimates. That's just too much.

Number 2, Ixabert, I can show you 10 different articles that say the Holocaust didn't happen. When someone says it's bullshit, I don't say "Oh you just hate contrary evidence". Pol Pot has the blood of the Cambodians on his hands. It is almost unanimously accepted with the exception of some ultra-left wing rags that choose to blame America every time someone gets the sniffles. I'm not going to continue to argue with you, because I'm sure you'll just come back with your immature "you've already been debunked" garbage. The fact is, your brain works sideways and are fundamentally unable to see things clearly. I will not continue arguing with you over Pol Pot because frankly, it's like arguing with a Holocaust denier, nothing I say will make you see the truth.

Number 3, anyone who says America has some serious fucking issues to deal with when it comes to historical scope. Yes, the Americans treated the "natives" or North America like garbage, but they did not initiate such policies. The British, the French, the Spanish all committed atrocities against the Native Americans, on a much larger scale than the United States government. In addition, as bad as those policies were, they downright pale to the systematic and deliberate murder of "lower" species by the Nazi Germans or the downright brutality and sadism shown by the Japanese during World War II. Nothing that the Americans ever did can compare to those two.

I voted Nazi Germany, simply because they did it on such a large scale and were so close to victory, and that's downright terrifying.

[Saddam]

Ixabert, the difference between you and I is that I can see both sides of the story - Yes the Americans have caused much misery in the world, but they have also done much good. You on the other hand can only see one view, implying that you have been indoctrinated by a corrupt and oppressive government. You stated that Pol Pot is innocent - that is just blindness. Ok (I'm not implying that I am wrong here rather placing a hypothetical point) there may be reason to believe that America had something to do with a certian number of those who died in Cambodia but the ruthless way in which Pol Pot carried out his regime certainly caused many deaths. This is clearly hard for you to admit because you feel it opens up cracks to your communist beliefs, just as Kim Jong il feels. The fact that the entire media in North Korea is State controlled (or sponsered) says a lot. It's a great shame that such regimes have to exist because rather than furthering the image of communism around the world, they tarnish it. The ideology of communism is undisputedly the most utopian in the world, I beleive however that we are simply not ready for such a radical form of government. That however is irrelevent. What is relevent is that we are willing to look at facts with an open heart, you however seem to only spurt out the doctrine that you have been brought up with, never questioning that it may be wrong. Evolution can only occur when people question their values and beliefs, exploitation occurs when they accept them.

[glinert]

I read it in INterfax. That all, I read it that why I say it. Personally I belive that that fact good and accurate.

[Ocker]

I voted United Kingdom.

UK colonialism and imperialism commited the atrocities all the others did... racial supremacy, dehumanising, torture, eradication, occupation etc.

[Pope Perseus Peptabysmal]

The worst enemy to humanity is.... Humanity itself. Human beings aren't perfect by any means. People either kill each other for the sheer killing, they intentionally kill to achieve a goal, or they accidently kill to achieve a goal, or they just mess up and someone dies, a human's worst enemy is the guy next to him.

Then there is nature, disease, and space rocks. You cannot forget to mention speeding space rocks as a threat to humanity.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

I read it in INterfax. That all, I read it that why I say it. Personally I belive that that fact good and accurate.

The Soviet census of 1959 indicated a decline in population on the order of forty million people. That not only accounts for the actual war dead, but also takes into consideration the huge numbers of unborn children


--Census don't lie. Obviously children were not being born during the 4 years of war, but a decline of 40 million means 50 million war deaths is an impossibility.

[GandalfTheGrey]

In Cambodia the Americans brutally slaughtered 2,000,000 civilians, in Indonesia 1,000,000, Vietnam 3,500,000, over 2,000,000 in Iraq, 1,000,000 in Afghanistan, 3,000,000 in Korea, 150,000 in the atomic holocaust, not to mention 90,000,000 native Americans and Africans, coupled with a brutal system of slavery.

Since you are usually the self proclaimed "show me proof" police, I find it hyporcritical of you to list these figures without any supporting evidence whatsoever. 2 million in Cambodia? Wherever did you get that figure?

[TROI]

UK colonialism and imperialism commited the atrocities all the others did... racial supremacy, dehumanising, torture, eradication, occupation etc.

None of it was institutionalised though and to a MUCH lesser extent than say Nazi Germany.

Eradication of what? Torture? When?

Still this was in the 18th and 19th centuries, an age with less of the civility that is now universal (mostly).

The British empire could never of been a threat to humanity either as their mantra was that of civilisation and betterment, rather than one of destruction and power as Fascism was or neo-conservatism is today.

The balance of international power at the time prevented them from making any moves for 'world domination' as the Nazis, the US or the USSR could of.

Matt

[Ocker]

None of it was institutionalised though and to a MUCH lesser extent than say Nazi Germany.

Eradication of what? Torture? When?

Yes, racial cleansing, assimilation and eradification was practiced, and even later still through 'protection'ist laws practiced by colonialist governments and their governing forces - thus it not only happened, it was institutionalised.

Torture of course, came in hand with this. I recommend the book 'Blood on the Wattle' for an introduction to this... and this book is only on Australia, not the other pacific, let alone the African peole! The torture and punishment commited by the British was satanic.

The British empire could never of been a threat to humanity either as their mantra was that of civilisation and betterment, rather than one of destruction and power as Fascism was or neo-conservatism is today.

Your British arrogance baffles me. Yep - when the Brits came to the Pacific (and many other regions) with the 'White Man's Burden' they were just looking after 'those poor primitives, those poor blackies who can't look after themselves'... we must segregrate or integrate them, so they can be taught the white man culture and the virtues of Christian values! We will just ignore their superior process of reconciliation (aka justice) and culture!

Still this was in the 18th and 19th centuries, an age with less of the civility that is now universal (mostly).

The balance of international power at the time prevented them from making any moves for 'world domination' as the Nazis, the US or the USSR could of.

Perhaps you're right - but I voted for the biggest threat to humanity as I know it... international 'law' and 'power' is irrelevant to me... what you do unto others eventually happens to you - karma. No sympathy for Europe here

*And yes, I am white.

[Wilhelm]

I voted for the United States of America. Nazi Germany was hell on Earth, but it was only for less than 10 years. The USA has been in the world for over 200 years now, and in all that time it has done more damage to humanity than Nazi Germany.

The USA is imperialist, but never invades a country unless they have lost their grip on its policies. Look at the world, it's controlled by the US. Maybe it seems as though some countries are politically free opposing the war on Iraq, but they are stilll commercially owned by the United States. Colombia is sadly another US province. What the USA does is go into eveyr coiuntry with their multinationals, and rape the country. They always do it, and always have done. Look at what happened in the 1920's.

The USA made Mexico sign into NAFTA, which now has Mexico broken, and with a serious social crisis. Then they tried ot do the massive FTAA to round all Laitn American countries ino their commercial rule, but failed. Now, they are negotiating the Andean FTA, with Colombia, Ecuador, and Peru.

It is not only America's fault though, it is also the oligarchy's fault. But what the US has done in many other countries is irreparable and unforgivable. They have killed too many people with hunger and bombings.

Interesting opinions on the free trade agreements:


ELN's "Insurreccion" magazine:

LA AMENAZA DEL TLC

Pecaríamos de ingenuos si creyéramos que realmente la “negociación” del Tratado de “Libre” Comercio (TLC) empezó el 18 de mayo de este año en Cartagena, como lo ha dicho el gobierno y lo han divulgado sus medios de comunicación.

Este proceso ya viene andando desde hace, por lo menos, una década cuando empezó en forma la llamada apertura, con destacada participación del actual secretario de la OEA, el expresidente Cesar Gaviria.

La avalancha de privatizaciones de las más rentables empresas estatales, la reforma de la legislación tributaria, laboral, penal, la adecuación del aparato estatal, la implementación del Plan Colombia y la Iniciativa Regional Andina y ahora el Plan Patriótico, han sido pasos de siete leguas rumbo al proyecto de colonización norteamericano.

El actual jefe del gobierno, Álvaro Uribe Vélez, quiere completar la obra y por ello, tanto en sus cuatro viajes a Estados Unidos, como en numerosas reuniones secretas en Colombia con los funcionarios de Washington que con tanta frecuencia visitan el país, ha seguido concretando pasos.

Prueba de ello es que por un lado, Regina Vargo la jefa del equipo negociador de la potencia del norte, ya traía listo el documento a aprobar en esta primera reunión oficial y por otro, toda la preparación que los grandes gremios económicos han venido adelantando para no quedarse afuera. Estos dos hechos no se dan porque sí.

Tampoco salen de la nada, o simplemente de la profunda vocación autoritaria y antipatriota de Uribe y los intereses mezquinos de la oligarquía, las críticas al proyecto de la llamada Ley Espejo elaborada por algunos congresistas, que obligaría al gobierno a defender los intereses del país y a consultar con el legislativo los pasos a dar en la negociación del TLC, a la manera como lo exige la Ley de Comercio de Estados Unidos.

En Cartagena los negociadores trabajaron a puerta cerrada y hasta los ansiosos empresarios que estaban en el llamado “cuarto de al lado” se quejaron de no haber sido consultados con la frecuencia y al nivel que ellos esperaban.

Tampoco es gratuita la participación de Perú y Ecuador. Los gringos van a matar tres pájaros de un solo tiro y los tres ya estaban dispuestos. Los delegados de Bolivia participaron como observadores y los presionan para que en las próximas rondas estén ya listos para ser el cuarto pájaro.

Fue un montaje espectacular con el fin de hacer creer que los gobiernos de los tres países iban dispuestos a defender los intereses de sus pueblos y a abrir grandes vías de desarrollo que nos acerquen al modo de vida americano.

Por Colombia participaron 154 negociadores, encabezados por el actual director del TLC, Hernando José Gómez y el ministro de comercio, industria y turismo Jorge Humberto Botero Angulo. Por Ecuador la delegación estuvo compuesta por 35 miembros, la del Perú por 52 y la de Estados Unidos por 62.

El llamado mapa de la negociación, por parte de los colombianos, fue preparado por un equipo conformado por cerca de 300 expertos del gobierno y 68 gremios de la producción, bajo la dirección de Hernando José Gómez. No hubo ni un solo representante de los principales sindicatos, de los movimientos sociales, de los trabajadores del campo y de la ciudad, de los pequeños y medianos productores, es decir de los grandes afectados con este tratado.

El Congreso envió a dos comisiones: una del Senado integrada por 18 miembros y la de la Cámara por 95, para un total de 113 personas, que supuestamente iban a ejercer el papel de control del gobierno. Como poco supieron, nada pudieron controlar si es que tenían alguna voluntad de hacerlo.

En el “cuarto de al lado” también estuvieron el presidente de la Asociación Nacional de Comercio Exterior (ANALDEX), el de INVERALIMENTOS, el de la ANDI, el de la Asociación de Agricultores de Colombia (SAC) y otros grandes empresarios, académicos y representantes del gobierno. Tampoco se habla de representantes no pertenecientes a la clase empresarial interesada en obtener beneficios.

Los negociadores trabajaron catorce mesas sobre temáticas como acceso a mercados, aduanas, obstáculos al comercio, competencia y defensa comercial, compras al sector público, inversiones, medidas fitosanitarias, etc.

Al parecer esta primera reunión fue sobre todo protocolar, donde cada uno expresó lo que quiere, sin mostrar mucho las verdaderas intenciones y en concreto solo salieron dos cosas: un cronograma para las futuras reuniones y el idioma oficial que será el inglés.

Las reuniones se harán alternando cada uno de los tres países latinoamericanos con EEUU.

La segunda tendrá lugar en la ciudad de Atlanta entre el 14 y 18 de junio. En agosto y noviembre se realizarán evaluaciones en Estados Unidos, sobre los avances y dificultades, que seguramente no serán muchas.

La última reunión se hará en Washington, por supuesto, para cerrar con broche de oro la firma del TLC, en febrero del 2005.

Los gringos, con su filosofía pragmática, dejaron bien claras tres cosas:

• Quieren un comercio ampliado y oportunidades de inversión seguras en la región andina. Para ello, ven necesario consolidar la democracia, fortalecer la lucha contra el terrorismo y el narcotráfico.

• Exigen seguridad en las reglas de juego, estabilidad jurídica, claridad en la aplicación de leyes y respeto a la propiedad intelectual.

• No tratarán en este espacio, con los tres países, el tema de los subsidios agrícolas, sino que lo harán en la Organización Mundial de Comercio (OMC) y lo harán producto por producto, analizando precios, capacidad de producción, condiciones geográficas, etc.

A cambio lo único que piden, no exigen, los gobiernos de Uribe, Gutiérrez y Toledo es tratamiento especial, mientras el ministro de comercio de Colombia expresaba que todo se negociará, no se excluirá ningún sector productivo, ni nada relacionado con la economía.

De eso estamos seguros los colombianos del montón: negociarán todo a precio de feria como han venido haciéndolo y con la docilidad ya conocida no solo ante ellos, los gringos en persona, sino ante sus instrumentos de presión: el FMI y el BM.

Un tema tan sensible como el relacionado con los productos agrícolas quedará en manos de la OMC. Después de la clara advertencia de la señora Vargo, nuestra agricultura quedará reducida a los productos exóticos que deseen los países poderosos: uchuva, pitahaya, palmito, plantas aromáticas y medicinales, como lo han expresado algunos analistas críticos de la barbaridad a que nos están empujando Uribe y los grandes gremios económicos.

Las transnacionales del petróleo, de las telecomunicaciones, de la agroindustria ya están ejecutando sus planes de inversión en nuestro país. Los gremios agrupados en 24 organizaciones y la llamada Coalición de Servicios compuesta 70 gremios dedicados a este renglón, se aprestan para pedir al gobierno la elaboración de una agenda que busca terminar de adecuar el país técnicamente para la entrada en grande del capital transnacional.

¿De dónde saldrá la financiación para esa aspiración, con el enorme déficit fiscal y los grandes recursos dedicados a la guerra contra el pueblo?

Saldrá del sacrificio de otros millones de colombianos trabajadores que quedarán sin empleo, sumándose a los millones que ya viven del rebusque, de la congelación de salarios, de la flexibilización laboral, de modificar el régimen pensional.

Las manifestaciones contra el TLC y el ALCA tienen razones de sobra. Este 18 de mayo mostró que va en aumento el descontento del pueblo colombiano a pesar de la guerra sucia, a pesar de la invasión yanqui que silenciosamente ha venido dándose, a pesar del Plan Colombia y del Plan Patriótico.

Las consignas contra imperialismo contra el TLC, contra la reelección de presidentes, en solidaridad con la huelga de los trabajadores petroleros, dicen que hay claridad en cuanto a los objetivos de la lucha.

Vale la pena conocer y tener en cuenta la dura experiencia del pueblo mexicano luego de diez años de TLCAN: aumento sin freno del desempleo, un millón de campesinos desplazados y arruinados. El progreso no se ve pues solo un pequeño grupo han sido los beneficiados, a costa de la dependencia económica y política, esas sí bien visibles.

La condena está explícita: represión sin miramiento de derechos humanos, ni convenios internacionales, hambre, desempleo, colonización. No se hacen exigencias que favorezcan al país en el TLC, se piden más soldados, mercenarios, armas, recursos y asesoría para construir cárceles de alta seguridad.

El país se polariza sin remedio. El reto se plantea sin ambages: o luchamos organizados por la vida digna o morimos hambrientos, enfermos, esclavizados y colonizados y además clasificados como terroristas.

http://www.eln-voces.com/Insurreccion/Anteriores/Insurrecion2004/INSURRECCION010.html#w

And a cartoon by the FSLN (the Nicaraguan Sandinista Party):

[Comrade Ogilvy]

What does the article say in a nutshell?

[Damien]

How can Islam be excluded?:?:

[Wilhelm]

Damien, just vote for "other" and say why you think islam is a menace.

Slablah:

The article says that anyone who thinks that the FTA negotiatoins have just started would be stupidly naive. It says that since Gaviria's government (1990-1994), the country has been preparing to sell itself to the United States by privatizing all state owned companies and opening the economy. It says that now Uribe wants to finish the job and is starting to officially come into the FTA. The article argues that proof of the preliminary preparation is that the US negotiator took a first draft already written for the very first negotiations. None of the Colombian businessmen invited to 'participate' were actually let into the negotiations, but were left with very limited knowledge of what was happening. The article complains about no union leader being in that group of businessmen to protect and stand for workers' rights.

The FTA expects equal conditions of commercial competition for all products in all the countries. They expect the faltering Colombian industry to compete against the US giants. It is economical suicide for Latin America. But, what would hapen if we chose not to busge to theirwih? Maybe a worldwide economic sanction, maybe for imposing 'barriers of tade' and maybe the country would be punished by the WTO. The tentacles of the United States reach far, and military intervention is the last resource they ever use. They own us, and those who they don't, they overtly ntervene.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

The tentacles of the United States reach far, and military intervention is the last resource they ever use. They own us, and those who they don't, they overtly ntervene.

As was the case of Yugoslavia 99'.



Perhaps it is neo-liberalism which is a great threat? But of course the US is at the helm on neo-liberalism.