[Melodramatic]

an interesting analysis

Hmm... this is very good. Very objective as it is based on self definition and not consequence. It catches the social differences between the right and left too. Although if I would not have read the article I would not have understood it. Maybe its needs simpler terms...

I might need to redefine myself as a leftist now... .

edit: now I can hate the right as I did before defining myself as a libertarian

[Meslocusist]

Yeah, it's a very good analysis IMO. Better than the political compass with its left-right and statist-libertarian, and certainly better than this short test, with personal v economic.

[Doug64]

You could... look it up?

I've found that I get better results by asking, because whatever definition I might find isn't necessarily the definition held by whomever I'm discussing things with.

Looking over what you provided, I'd have to say that Left-Libertarians as described are a lot more Left than Libertarian - anyone calling for equality of outcome and labeling private property to be illegitimate is so far out on the Libertarian fringe as to be off the edge. It would be like someone calling the for abolishment of the Welfare State and claiming to be a Liberal, there might be some doubts on the part of others. In all the years I've been reading Libertarian literature, I never encountered this particular subset.

This is kind of true, if we place fascism on the right wing then that is still a communally-based ideology. Although I think it's a stretch to say that libertarianism is communal, because when I say communal I'm specifically thinking of things that would be provided universally like education, health care, sustenance, etc.

Fascism isn't Right, Conservatives favor a level of economic freedom abhorrent to any good Fascist - it's Statist, off at an angle. But I think I see what you mean, you mean the majority community as exemplified, advanced and controlled by the State. And no, you aren't going to find many Libertarians going along with that. Of course, that would be because they are opposed to forcing people to take part in or support the government-favored society and culture.

Libertarianism in not a communal ideology by nature. People are communal by nature, and many rationally believe that being part of a community is good. (Real) Libertarianism aims towards tolerance and letting people live the way the want. Therefore communal people live communally and non-communal people live non communally....

I'd put it differently - Libertarianism is about freely chosen communities. You are going to find very few non-communal people. But if someone wants to head into the backwoods and live as a hermit, whatever floats his boat. He just shouldn't think he has the right to demand we go bail him out if he finds himself in trouble.

[Wolfman]

Looking over what you provided, I'd have to say that Left-Libertarians as described are a lot more Left than Libertarian - anyone calling for equality of outcome and labeling private property to be illegitimate is so far out on the Libertarian fringe as to be off the edge. It would be like someone calling the for abolishment of the Welfare State and claiming to be a Liberal, there might be some doubts on the part of others. In all the years I've been reading Libertarian literature, I never encountered this particular subset.

You've never read Noam Chomsky? Anyways, welfare type policies are from the Left, which does not have to do with Liberalism. The two tend together, but don't have you. Besides, the word 'libertarian' was coined by a French Anarchist in the 1890s because the French outlawed Anarchist texts, and he used the term to get around the law. At the time Anarchists and Communists were pretty closely related ideologies, with the founded (Proudhon) declaring that 'property is theft'.

[Doug64]

I've heard an interesting analysis that, IMO, does describe the difference between "left" and "right" fairly well: It's part of a two-axis political spectrum called the Pournelle Chart. This chart has two axes: One for "Statism"- I think that that one needs no explanation. The other one is "Rationalism"- which is defined as "Attitude towards planned social progress"....

I own the book that came out of, and forgot it was in there. The chart is interesting, but it has two flaws: first, the Statist axis doesn't take into account just what people want to use the state for; and second, the Rationalism axis doesn't seem to me to have much predictive utility. The chart that this quiz is based on IMHO has both, or at least does a better job than Pournelle's.

You've never read Noam Chomsky?

No, I haven't. Taking a quick look over what Wiki has on him, there's a lot I'd agree with, and some I don't. However, he describes himself as a socialist, and I'd say that's fairly accurate, albeit one with strong libertarian leanings.

Anyways, welfare type policies are from the Left, which does not have to do with Liberalism. The two tend together, but don't have you. Besides, the word 'libertarian' was coined by a French Anarchist in the 1890s because the French outlawed Anarchist texts, and he used the term to get around the law. At the time Anarchists and Communists were pretty closely related ideologies, with the founded (Proudhon) declaring that 'property is theft'.

Wherever "libertarian" came from, it's needed now because of the demise of Classical Liberalism (before being reborn as Libertarianism), and its replacement with Social Liberalism. And yes, welfare type policies are a fundamental part of Social Liberalism.

[Wolfman]

No, I haven't. Taking a quick look over what Wiki has on him, there's a lot I'd agree with, and some I don't. However, he describes himself as a socialist, and I'd say that's fairly accurate, albeit one with strong libertarian leanings.

He's described himself as a Left Libertarian and a Libertarian Socialist, and the two are so similar that he is basically both.

Wherever "libertarian" came from, it's needed now because of the demise of Classical Liberalism (before being reborn as Libertarianism), and its replacement with Social Liberalism. And yes, welfare type policies are a fundamental part of Social Liberalism.

Social Liberalism is a specific ideology though.

[liberallad]

Liberal:
Personal - 80%
Economic - 40%


Cool story, bro. Didn't learn much about myself that I didn't already know. My assumption is that anyone that comes near this forum has a pretty good clue as to where they stand on the "political map"(that's what the website called it, not me).

[Melodramatic]

I'd put it differently - Libertarianism is about freely chosen communities. You are going to find very few non-communal people. But if someone wants to head into the backwoods and live as a hermit, whatever floats his boat. He just shouldn't think he has the right to demand we go bail him out if he finds himself in trouble.

indeed but is it libertarianism that is communal or the people who are communal? if no body wants to be part of the community is it suddenly not libertarianism?

also you shouldn't need to go to the woods to not be a part of a community.

[Meslocusist]

I own the book that came out of, and forgot it was in there. The chart is interesting, but it has two flaws: first, the Statist axis doesn't take into account just what people want to use the state for; and second, the Rationalism axis doesn't seem to me to have much predictive utility. The chart that this quiz is based on IMHO has both, or at least does a better job than Pournelle's.

Well, wrt the statist axis, I don't think it's intended to say what they intend to do with the state. One of the primary criticisms that I hear of the Political Compass by libertarians is that it lumps them with the neocons, even though they don't seek to enforce their morality on the majority, making their private opinions essentially moot in the context of politics. On the other hand, I think the test that is the topic of this thread goes too far in that direction: The test measures how much you would have government and community influence in the economy and in social issues, without saying what you would do with that influence.

I can agree that there is a limit to the predictive utility of the rationalism axis: In order to know what planned social progress means, you do need to have a definition of what they think progress is. However, I do think that the Pournelle Chart is an improvement over existing systems.

[Doug64]

He's described himself as a Left Libertarian and a Libertarian Socialist, and the two are so similar that he is basically both.

No, they aren't similar, you might as well say that someone that preaches the abolishment of the welfare state can reasonably claim to be a modern Liberal.

Social Liberalism is a specific ideology though.

Sure, it's modern Liberalism and very much on the Left.

Cool story, bro. Didn't learn much about myself that I didn't already know. My assumption is that anyone that comes near this forum has a pretty good clue as to where they stand on the "political map"(that's what the website called it, not me).

True enough, I pretty much posted it to offer a superior online quiz than the other two I'd found a poll for.

indeed but is it libertarianism that is communal or the people who are communal? if no body wants to be part of the community is it suddenly not libertarianism?

It's people that are communal, and since political philosophies are about how people should interact with each other, they are all by definition communal. What Libertarianism isn't, or at least is to a much more limited extent than most others, is dictatorial.

also you shouldn't need to go to the woods to not be a part of a community.

True, you could be rich instead, and pay others to do the interacting with the rest of humanity for you.

Well, wrt the statist axis, I don't think it's intended to say what they intend to do with the state.

True, which is why it also seriously limits its predictability.

One of the primary criticisms that I hear of the Political Compass by libertarians is that it lumps them with the neocons, even though they don't seek to enforce their morality on the majority, making their private opinions essentially moot in the context of politics. On the other hand, I think the test that is the topic of this thread goes too far in that direction: The test measures how much you would have government and community influence in the economy and in social issues, without saying what you would do with that influence.

I definitely agree about the Political Compass, it makes me out to be a Centrist, which I definitely am not. But while any simple quiz is going to paint with a broad stroke and knowing the results without knowing how people answered on specific questions also limits predictability, it IMHO does the best job of any online quiz I've seen of at least sorting people into broad groups that actually means something politically (in the US, at least).

[Melodramatic]

True, you could be rich instead, and pay others to do the interacting with the rest of humanity for you.

You misunderstood my claim. A community can make rules too (for example demand that everyone help feed the hungry), assuming participation in the community is voluntary. For participation to truly be voluntary you shouldn't need to leave your house. I was not referring to the social construct called community, it has no right to make rules.

[Wolfman]

No, they aren't similar, you might as well say that someone that preaches the abolishment of the welfare state can reasonably claim to be a modern Liberal.

Welfare has nothing to do with Liberalism, so nothing is stopping anyone from doing just that.

[Doug64]

You misunderstood my claim. A community can make rules too (for example demand that everyone help feed the hungry), assuming participation in the community is voluntary. For participation to truly be voluntary you shouldn't need to leave your house. I was not referring to the social construct called community, it has no right to make rules.

Now you have me going from misunderstanding to just confused. Are you saying that communities have no right to set community standards?

[Doug64]

Since the thread on this quiz in the North America section seems to be winding down, I invite anyone that took the poll there that hasn't already voted here to add their votes.

[FrenchFried]

I did. I got Left, liberal. My personal issues score is 100%, my economic issues score is 0%.

I believe the Political Compass was more accurate. More than 50% on economic issues should mean you're at the right, and less than 50% should mean that you're a leftist. More than 50% on personal issues score should mean that you're libertarian, and less than 50% should mean that you're a statist, which is basically what the Political Compass did.

[Soixante-Retard]

Libertarian
PERSONAL issues Score is 100%
ECONOMIC issues Score is 100%

Libertarians support maximum liberty in both personal and economic matters. They advocate a much smaller government; one that is limited to protecting individuals from coercion and violence. Libertarians tend to embrace individual responsibility, oppose government bureaucracy and taxes, promote private charity, tolerate diverse lifestyles, support the free market, and defend civil liberties.

[Doug64]

I believe the Political Compass was more accurate.

My problem with the Political Compass is its combination of personal and political views into one score - that can distort the results when it comes to what legislation people will support. For example, I consider any sex outside of marriage to be immoral, but oppose using government power to enforce my view and see no real difference between someone having a one night stand after dinner and a movie and someone having a one night stand after an exchange of cash. So, whatever my personal views I oppose criminalizing almost all voluntary sexual relations between adults, including banning prostitution. Guess how that mix is reflected in the Political Compass?

[Baff]

In my mind I see myself as right wing. But all these polls keep placing me in the centre.

My rationale for this is that they must be American polls. And hence skewed.

[Fraqtive42]

Your PERSONAL issues Score is 30%
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 20%

Statists (Big Government)

Statists want government to have a great deal of power over the economy and individual behavior. They frequently doubt whether economic liberty and individual freedom are practical options in today's world. Statists tend to distrust the free market, support high taxes and centralized planning of the economy, oppose diverse lifestyles, and question the importance of civil liberties.

__________________

I would have fewer qualms with this quiz if 1) more questions were added, and 2) the liberal-conservative dichotomy was eliminated entirely, replaced with left- v.s. right-wing values.

[Doug64]

In my mind I see myself as right wing. But all these polls keep placing me in the centre.

My rationale for this is that they must be American polls. And hence skewed.

They aren't skewed at all - for the United States. But yeah, you'd need a different quiz to shift things to a European center.

I would have fewer qualms with this quiz if 1) more questions were added, and 2) the liberal-conservative dichotomy was eliminated entirely, replaced with left- v.s. right-wing values.

Personally, I think the Left/Right dichotomy is too limited. Actually, I think a two-dimensional grid is too limited, I'd prefer a three-dimensional cube with the third axis being for foreign policy. But that cube's a little tough to get on paper.