[skinster]

Stop pretending you hang out with any girl besides your mum, you're not fooling anyone.

[Albert]

And you say you are older then me. Your maturity level is that little more of VS here.

Here is a good example I happened to stumble on while having this chat here.

What impression a young man is going to have listening to this? That women truly want this.

[Victoribus Spolia]

[Rancid]

I'm not trolling.

You are applying double standards there then. This is contradictory to core feminist ideal of treating men and women as equals.

I disagree. Just because you personally wouldn't care that a women would catcall you, doesn't mean it's ok for you to catcall a woman. The fact that it doesn't bother (most) men, does not mean it's ok for men to catcall women.

You're basically saying, you are entitled to catcall women because you don't mind being called called. Let's say you were having sex with someone. This person really enjoys having a dildo stuck up their ass without warning. They don't mind it at all. Would that make it ok for that person to stick a dildo up your ass without warning, because they like it themselves?

[Albert]

I personally do not like catcalling when it was done to me and I do not catcall aside from few past immature moments of lapsed judgment when drunk. My point is exactly how you described, I have met women who do not mind being catcalled (in fact they like it), then I met women who find it repulsive and rude as well. So by this happenstance are women also participating in rape culture?

[Rancid]

I don't know if they are participating, but they certainly aren't helping the cause of women. They will have to do one of two things. Take one for the team accept that the majority don't want it, thus they can't have it. Alternatively, they can wear signs on their backs that say "I like catcalling."

[Albert]

Strictly going by definition of rape culture they are participating. This is where it makes it all that harder to define rape culture as given to us by feminist. As by that definition it would come to be that some women actually want rape culture.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes, some women also participate in rape culture.

Just like some black people can say racist things, and some gay people are homophobic.

How does this affect the definition?

[Albert]

That means the problem of rape culture is not just in men but also in women. That means "toxic masculinity" is also promoted by some women in our society and perpetuated by them. If a young impressionable man meets a bad woman, who promotes "rape culture" he might think it is the norm with women and that is what they all want. As I provided a video above, you meet a woman like that you might think that is what they are all like. So in this way he will go on to act in "rape culture" way to other women. This is cycle of abuse.

This characteristics of social development is not being recognized by feminist at all, because they are too busy blaming all the ills in society on men. Yet women in the society themselves promote this atmosphere and corrupt men, but we can not point that out because that would be "slut shaming" (which is, part of rape culture itself again). This leaves me to conclude that feminism in its zeitgeist is self destructive movement. It is a closed loop, and unfortunately has been embraced by whole of society leading it to self destructive behaviour as well.

In the end, this is like a question, would there be prostitution if there were no prostitutes? Similarly as there would be no prostitution if there were no Johns.

Also I believe you meant to say that some black people are racist as some whites are.

[Pants-of-dog]

That means the problem of rape culture is not just in men but also in women. That means "toxic masculinity" is also promoted by some women in our society and perpetuated by them. If a young impressionable man meets a bad woman, who promotes "rape culture" he might think it is the norm with women and that is what they all want. As I provided a video above, you meet a woman like that you might think that is what they are all like. So in this way he will go on to act in "rape culture" way to other women.

Yes, all of this is true.

This is cycle of abuse.

No. This is simply how society transmits cultural values.

This characteristics of social development is not being recognized by feminist at all, because they are too busy blaming all the ills in society on men. Yet women in the society themselves promote this atmosphere and corrupt men, but we can not point that out because that would be "slut shaming" (which is, part of rape culture itself again). This leaves me to conclude that feminism in its zeitgeist is self destructive movement. It is a closed loop, and unfortunately has been embraced by whole of society leading it to self destructive behaviour as well.

In the end, this is like a question, would there be prostitution if there were no prostitutes? Similarly as there would be no prostitution if there were no Johns.

As far as I can tell, none of this is true.

Also I believe you meant to say that some black people are racist as some whites are.

No, I phrased it more correctly.

[Albert]

No. This is simply how society transmits cultural values.

Progressive cultural values indeed.

[AFAIK]

You are applying double standards there then. This is contradictory to core feminist ideal of treating men and women as equals.

I'm gonna let you in on a little secret, Albert. Men and women are different. Shocking I know but it's true. You may also be amazed to learn that just because one person likes something, it doesn't mean everyone else in the entire world will also like that thing.

Mind blowing, eh?

[Rancid]

Strictly going by definition of rape culture they are participating. This is where it makes it all that harder to define rape culture as given to us by feminist. As by that definition it would come to be that some women actually want rape culture.

Fair enough, it certainty muddies things.

It would be incorrect to say that only men can perpetuate/promote so called rape culture. yes.

I agree that I'm not sure if equating catcalling as something that will promote and lead to rape is accurate/valid (I'm sure there are objective minded sociologist that have written about this, no?), but I guess I don't care enough to fight it, since I'm not a rapist or catcaller.

[Victoribus Spolia]

I think we need to discuss more examples of rape culture; I want some opinions as to why this is rape culture and if it should be banned for perpetuating rape culture?:

I may need @skinster 's help to walk me through this though....





^I am guessing this is rape culture as it normalizes, trivializes and find funny as hell this sort of thing, which I guess is sexual assault or rape by now.





^ This is an example of a hilarious pun, but it probably counts as slut-shaming, so its a no-no.



^ Also an example of slut shaming, though he makes a good point.





^ being this was a simulated form of penetration, would this be sexual assault @skinster

Probably rape culture too right?



How about this skinster? ^^^

Is this rape culture too, since the guy presumed she would end up gargling on his gooey load by the date's end?

Surely that is part of rape culture right?

[Pants-of-dog]

The vast majority of your posts in this thread have been good examples of rape culture.

You do not need to try and troll @skinster in order to provide more examples.

[skinster]

^ Right. What a bore.

also at Albert acting like he's ever been cat-called. If he's as pathetic in earl as he is on this board, I'm guessing it's never happened.

Yes, some women participate in rape culture. Another thing that happens is sometimes women allow the cat-calling because they fear a negative response like an attack or death if they don't act politely.

[jessupjonesjnr87]

Is catcalling really rape culture? What if a girl passes by and I say to her "Hello beautiful!". Am I participating in rape culture?

I wouldn't consider that as participating in rape culture. I would consider it a barrier to the advancement and enlightenment of mankind.

[Wellsy]

Strictly going by definition of rape culture they are participating. This is where it makes it all that harder to define rape culture as given to us by feminist. As by that definition it would come to be that some women actually want rape culture.

Then I imagine the task isn't simply that of consent, which does designate the difference between whether some interactions are morally permissible and or wrong but also to make a ethical and normative standard that expresses why it's wrong even if a woman experiences it in a positive way.
https://aifs.gov.au/publications/conceptual-understandings-and-prevalence-sexual-harassment-and-street-harassm

Further, the nature of the relationship between the harasser and victim can also influence whether a behaviour is interpreted as harassment or not. Participants in Bursik and Gefter's (2011) study were "more likely to label the behavioural interaction as sexual harassment when there was power inequality between the harasser and the target" (p. 343).

It is likely that the form the harassing behaviour takes will also influence how the recipient of the behaviour interprets it. As noted above, definitions of sexual harassment and street harassment are broad and inclusive. Some forms of this harassment have the scope to be interpreted in a range of ways by women. For example, Kissling (1991) purported that "many women read street remarks as a form of compliment, carefully distinguishing them from obscene or violent street harassment" (p. 452). However, it is also likely that many other women would not interpret the same remarks in a positive light. This variation in how street harassment is experienced by women adds to the complexity of attempting to conceptualise harassment as a form of sexual harm, and in knowing how to best respond to this behaviour. The intentions of the harasser may also vary, ranging from an intended "compliment" through to a purposeful attempt to harass, harm and/or intimidate their target (Kissling, 1991).

However, all of these forms of sexual harassment are interconnected, regardless of intent or the way they are experienced by the recipient, as "the remarks serve multiple functions of social control" (Kissling, 1991, p. 455). Kissling denoted this harassment as a form of "sexual terrorism", which serves to remind women of their status as sexual objects, and "of their vulnerability to these and other violations" (p. 455). It is here that the interconnections between sexual harassment and more severe forms of sexual violence are most apparent. Firstly, sexual harassment functions as a reminder to women of the threat or possibility of something "more serious" occurring, therefore rendering women as sexually vulnerable (Crouch, 2009; Kissling, 1991; Laniya, 2005; Macmillan et al., 2000; Tuerkheimer, 1997). Secondly, both sexual harassment and sexual violence remove women's sexual and bodily autonomy (MacKinnon, 1979), curtail women's behaviour, and are used to threaten, intimidate, and harm women.

To emphasize how catcalling functions in this way it's useful to consider the nature of the interaction.
To which I think the emphasis of catcalling as characterized by being unidirectional rather than a mutual interaction is clear, in that flirting is qualitatively different to harassment in function typically and character.
p. 96

One can sexually objectify a woman simply by thinking about her in a certain way; the woman need not be aware that she has been objectified for it to be the case that she has been. If this were all objectification amounted to, it would not nearly be nearly as morally problematic. But Bartky points out that this is not usually the way things go. She describes an experience of sexual harassment not unlike Native Companion's, that of enduring the catcalls and whistles of strange men:

While it is true that for these men I am nothing but, let us say, a "nice piece of ass," there is more involved in this encounter than their mere fragmented perception of me. They could, after all, have enjoyed me in silence. Blissfully unaware, breasts bouncing, eyes on the birds in the trees, I could have passed by without having been turned to stone. But I must be made to know that I am a "nice piece of ass": I must be made to see myself as they see me. ...It is unclear what role is played by sexual arousal or even spontatenous connoisseurship in encounters like these. What I describe seems less the spontatenous expression of a healthy eroticism than a ritual of subjugation.

Here it's not even just the content of the words, but the function of the interaction that is pivotal.
A person shouting out appraisals of someone even with the charitable interpretation of complimenting engages them not in a respectful way of first seeing if they're willing to communicate and doing so, which would signify a more genuine interest of interaction compared to merely shouting out things to them.
So the idea then becomes what can be the function of yelling out appraisals? To at the very minimal have women considered in terms being reduced to their appearances and not worthwhile standards of a respectful interaction.
But I imagine there could be interesting retorts to this position if one can think of them.

Regardless, I don't think men lack the ability to empathize with women's position but rather choose to willfully ignore it, when pressed into the subject position of women, they may readily recognize the discomfort of such a position. So not in terms of themselves in the position, but as a woman.
Sexual Harassment and Masculinity The Power and Meaning of “Girl Watching”

In attemptingto take up the subject position of a woman, these men are necessarily drawing on knowledge they already hold. If men simply “don’t get it”—truly failingto see the harm in girl watchingor other more serious acts of sexual harassment—then they should not be able to see this harm when envisioningthemselves as women. What the interviews reveal is that many men—most of whom failed to see the harm of many acts that would constitute the hostile work environment form of sexual harassment—did in fact understand the harm of these acts when forced to consider the position of the targeted woman.

I suggest that the gender reversal scenario produced, in some men at least, a moment of empathy. Empathy, Schwalbe (1992) argued, requires two things. First, one must have some knowledge of the other’s situation and feelings. Second, one must be motivated to take the position of the other. What the present research suggests is that gender differences in interpreting sexual harassment stem not so much from men’s not getting it (a failure of the first element) but from a studied, often compulsory, lack of motivation to identify with women’s experiences.

In his analysis of masculinity and empathy, Schwalbe (1992) argued that the requirements of masculinity necessitate a “narrowingof the moral self.” Men learn that to effectively perform masculinity and to protect a masculine identity, they must, in many instances, ignore a woman’s pain and obscure her viewpoint. Men fail to exhibit empathy with women because masculinity precludes them from takingthe position of the feminine other, and men’s moral stance vis-à-vis women is attenuated by this lack of empathy

As a case study, Schwalbe (1992) considered the Thomas-Hill hearings, concludingthat the examiningsenators maintained a masculinist stance that precluded them from giving serious consideration to Professor Hill’s claims. A consequence of this masculine moral narrowingis that “charges of sexual harassment . . . are often seen as exaggerated or as fabricated out of misunderstanding or spite” (Schwalbe 1992, 46). Thus, gender differences in interpreting sexually harassing behaviors may stem more from acts of ignoring than states of ignorance.

The paper above is in regards to men bonding over leering at women in the workplace.

[Albert]

Then I imagine the task isn't simply that of consent, which does designate the difference between whether some interactions are morally permissible and or wrong but also to make a ethical and normative standard that expresses why it's wrong even if a woman experiences it in a positive way.

My main point that I'm trying to make is that some women themselves facilitate and perpetuate rape culture. They themselves legitimize behaviour that otherwise is wrong.

Not only that they themselves do exact same thing to men. (catcalling)

Here it's not even just the content of the words, but the function of the interaction that is pivotal.
A person shouting out appraisals of someone even with the charitable interpretation of complimenting engages them not in a respectful way of first seeing if they're willing to communicate and doing so, which would signify a more genuine interest of interaction compared to merely shouting out things to them.
So the idea then becomes what can be the function of yelling out appraisals? To at the very minimal have women considered in terms being reduced to their appearances and not worthwhile standards of a respectful interaction.

But I imagine there could be interesting retorts to this position if one can think of them.

Regardless, I don't think men lack the ability to empathize with women's position but rather choose to willfully ignore it, when pressed into the subject position of women, they may readily recognize the discomfort of such a position. So not in terms of themselves in the position, but as a woman.

Similarly when women dress in revealing clothing do they not show that they are not more but mere objects of beauty and desire, with no other essence to them? But feminism has made this a taboo to acknowledge. Yet do not such women perpetuate and facilitate objectification of themselves and women; the exact thing that feminist are fighting against.

Do women choose to willfully ignore this aspect of social relations between men and women? Do they willfully ignore how negatively they effect men and women alike by their vulgar expression with their clothing? Do they not legitimize as a standard of social norm that otherwise is wrong. Yet when pressed on this subject they become defensive and have made it to the point that it is culturally a taboo now to bring up this subject.

Btw, if men experience something positive, like seeing a woman in vulgar attire, it does not mean it is a good thing.

So again, perhaps men are not the only ones who partake in rape culture.


Also to point out. One of the fundamental mistakes of feminism aside of many, is that it proposes to represent all women, when it does not. You can never represent all women; as there are women that differ drastically from one another. Similarity their attempt to lump all men into one category of behaviour is also false, as men also differ from one another.

This picture in our minds that feminist have painted, neatly defined women on one side VS. one character defined men on the other; is fundamentally false and impractically simplistic.

[Godstud]

My main point that I'm trying to make is that some women themselves facilitate and perpetuate rape culture. They themselves legitimize behaviour that otherwise is wrong.

Not only that they themselves do exact same thing to men. (catcalling)

So again, perhaps men are not the only ones who partake in rape culture.

Yes, we've already stated that some women contribute to the problem. This happens in feminism, as well.

Cat-calling from women, however, is extremely rare.

Is this just you trying to make yourself out to be a victim?