Am I racist in your opinion? - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Polls on politics, news, current affairs and history.

Am I racist?

Yes
14
56%
No
11
44%
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layman wrote:@Godstud do you remember the 1980s or what about the 1970s? The police back then and people in generally were another species with these things.

I am open to the possibility there may have been some shorter term regression and I suggested some of the reason for that.

Just to be clear @Tainari88 i am not saying people should just sit and wait. I am certainly not arguing against these protests either.

Simply questioning strategy.


Layman I am an international socialist politically. I am not a moderate. If you see my profile? I am a -10 economically and a -7 socially. They matched my ways of thinking politically with those of Nelson Mandela. Which pleased me because the way he made it to the South African presidency in a profoundly racist nation with apartheid laws and so on? Was by believing profoundly in one man and one woman and one vote. And by also saying that many had to come together and be unified in purpose. For a new nation. One in which white South Africans and black South Africans could live together and forge a society together. But it had to be as equals under the law, and as being treated equally in many ways.

It also acknowledges systemic racism. If you study Mandela's life? He was in his early life never exposed to white people and their apartheid system til he was more or less 9 years old. Why? His father was part of an all Black community that had always lived in South Africa. He was not an immigrant in some foreign land @layman . He was in his element.

I don't believe in living in the past at all. South Africa had settlers. Afrikaaners, and people of Dutch extraction, English extraction and people from India living there and people despite having all kinds of crazy, anti-humane racist laws? People interact and they mingle. It was against the law to intermarry and to give rights to the African native people if you were of European descent. All of that was part of the scheme to not have any social or economic mobility and it was steeped in many beliefs that had to do with holding on to land and power. As most racism is.

Have any of you who are arguing about racism or how much you hate political correctness or how much you think the looters, rioters are damaging the society--or like @Political Interest talking about that discrimination against whites is also a problem? Have you studied for years African American history? I am asking because the first sign of respect you should have for an ethnic or cultural group in the world? Is to study their history with some depth.

Everyone studies English history and European histories in a conventional way in schools. People learn about the Queen and the history of the monarchy of England and Queen Elizabeth I, etc. Do they study the history of the native peoples all over the world with the same sort of dedication? The excuses are, 'those people are primitive, they were cannibals, they were unintelligent, incorrigible, not teachable, dumb, dirty, unable to create tall, skyscrapers, technology, were not studying in universities, etc." All of it designed to make them DISAPPEAR, to make them INVISIBLE, to strip them of any self agency, self respect, self determination and self responsibility. On an individual level and on a systemic level.

Why do they do this? To keep them in a position of not taking ACTION. To change their lives, and their circumstances because it is benefiting a certain group who needs that to NOT CHANGE. It is a reality.

All people have a history. All people. Some think that because they don't because they are not part of European history? Are racist people for sure. Why continue in the fiction that other people don't know anything if they are not part of your ethnic group's history? That is ignorant and foolish.

But how many of you have taken the time to study the history of Africa? Nation by nation? Its geography, its peoples, its histories, its social and economic developments and how that was handled? How many of you have dined in a home of an African and asked them great questions like, "What does education for your children mean to you?" or "Why did you come to the UK or the USA, or Australia etc?" Or philosophical questions like "What does a sense of community mean to you?" and or "What are your political beliefs or religious beliefs and what do they mean to you personally? How have those beliefs shaped your life?"

I can guarantee you that if you do that and you sit down and talk like civilized human beings with people from the culture you refused to study or acknowledge fully as you would with a group of people whom the society deems primitive, and less than and not as worthy culturally than your group? You will wind up discarding all that unadulterated false and inhumane subconscious thinking and start taking action===action that is desperately needed to change the racism and change the ignorance and the assumptions that underlie all those thoughts....all put there by people on the very elite top to make sure that things don't change for the better.

Unity between ordinary and working people is something easily done when people talk about things they have in common. And human beings as a general rule have a lot in common. Especially the majority of people in the world that under capitalism have to work for a living or they can't be housed, have running water or electricity and food. Basics.

It is struggle for the vast majority of humanity @Political Interest but what I find inexcusable is the lack of dedication to finding common ground with others and taking a deep interest in their lives. Be interested in human beings different than you are in background, class, race, and knowledge and everything else. Give the basic respect to them of the reality that is you are a human being living a life? You have experiences. Those experiences are valuable. They are a source of knowledge and of truth. If that was not true? Why read books, articles, videos, movies, etc and all written and organized sources of information to understand our worlds? It is based on a human being experiencing life and then interpreting those experiences and compiling facts and compiling concepts derived from those experiences. You study math to understand how numbers work and how the concept of more advanced mathematics works. A variable can be 'found out' by its relationship to other numbers. That means you don't know what that hidden number is? But you can get the answer by putting it in a context with other numbers that you do know what the value is?

Human experiences are valuable. Thinking that one group of them are worthless? Because someone in some political or economic interest shapes attitudes socially and they don't want unity or they don't want you to be interested in other cultures, other people's histories and lives because if you did? You might find common ground? And the racists and the ones who never have done the work on this website are suddenly judging and saying?

I want to judge these people but without knowledge? That for me is the essence of racist thinking. Do you want that to be how you deal with your life? I don't.
#15099211
Tainari88 wrote:It is struggle for the vast majority of humanity @Political Interest but what I find inexcusable is the lack of dedication to finding common ground with others and taking a deep interest in their lives. Be interested in human beings different than you are in background, class, race, and knowledge and everything else. Give the basic respect to them of the reality that is you are a human being living a life? You have experiences. Those experiences are valuable. They are a source of knowledge and of truth. If that was not true? Why read books, articles, videos, movies, etc and all written and organized sources of information to understand our worlds? It is based on a human being experiencing life and then interpreting those experiences and compiling facts and compiling concepts derived from those experiences. You study math to understand how numbers work and how the concept of more advanced mathematics works. A variable can be 'found out' by its relationship to other numbers. That means you don't know what that hidden number is? But you can get the answer by putting it in a context with other numbers that you do know what the value is?


I respect people from different races and I acknowledge structural racism against POC.

However, whenever I post real life examples of anti-white racism it is ignored. Then people still deny the possibility of anti-white racism, merely relegating it to prejudice in spite of clear documented examples that exist in archives. Or they say it happens so little as to be rendered almost non-existent.

Do you think anti-white racism exists? In all the examples I posted it would be interesting to know whether this was mere prejudice or racism, especially when one involved someone losing their life.
#15099230
Political Interest wrote:I respect people from different races and I acknowledge structural racism against POC.

However, whenever I post real life examples of anti-white racism it is ignored. Then people still deny the possibility of anti-white racism, merely relegating it to prejudice in spite of clear documented examples that exist in archives. Or they say it happens so little as to be rendered almost non-existent.

Do you think anti-white racism exists? In all the examples I posted it would be interesting to know whether this was mere prejudice or racism, especially when one involved someone losing their life.


I haven't of course read all of your posts, but I didn't see any examples of systematic racism against whites cited by you, at least not in your discussion with me.

I have given you examples of discrimination any foreigner, including whites, may be subjected to. But these examples are very different from the systemic racism colored people are subjected to even in countries predominantly non-white.

I don't really get what you are driving at. Are you contesting the idea of "white privilege"? Do you want to establish white victim-hood based on a number of limited discrimination some whites may have been subjected too?

You do understand that the idea of white victim-hood is driving Trumpean right-wing populism?

The white immigrants probably discriminate against locals but the locals probably also discriminate against the whites.


That's an odd way of characterizing the colonial conquest. The natives had the right to resist a foreign invasion which reduced them to 2nd class citizens in their own country.

Again, it is important to distinguish between expatriate communities that are essentially living in foreign concessions within Asia and Africa and naturalised whites.


Most white immigrants who see themselves as "expats" in a class above the brown natives don't even live in physical concessions. The term expat just confers on white immigrants the white privilege they apparently believe is their's by virtue of skin color.

The fact that some non-whites have started to see themselves as expats doesn't change the inherently discriminatory nature of these terms. In the past, the white colonials needed their brown lackeys who were welcome at their master's table by necessity but hardly ever as equals. Considering how black people are discriminated in Asia, it's not surprising that many Asians aspire to white status.

Quoting from Wikipedia regarding the usages of the terms expat/immigrant:

The varying use of these terms for different groups of foreigners can thus be seen as implying nuances about wealth, intended length of stay, perceived motives for moving, nationality, and even race. This has caused controversy, with many asserting that the traditional use of the word has had racist connotations.[9][10][11][12][13][14] For example, a British national working in Spain or Portugal is commonly referred to as an 'expatriate', whereas a Spanish or Portuguese national working in Britain is referred to as an 'immigrant', thus indicating Anglocentrism.


Maybe it's hard to understand for Anglophones, but the term has clearly discriminatory character. White, especially Anglo-Saxon, expats in Africa or Asia are what used to be the white colonial masters of colonial times - all the colonial soldiers of fortune who tried to make a fortune by exploiting their privilege.
#15099256
Atlantis wrote:I haven't of course read all of your posts, but I didn't see any examples of systematic racism against whites cited by you, at least not in your discussion with me.


I will PM them to you.

Atlantis wrote:I have given you examples of discrimination any foreigner, including whites, may be subjected to. But these examples are very different from the systemic racism colored people are subjected to even in countries predominantly non-white.

I don't really get what you are driving at. Are you contesting the idea of "white privilege"? Do you want to establish white victim-hood based on a number of limited discrimination some whites may have been subjected too?


Yes, I am contesting it while at the same time not denying systemic discrimination and racism against POC in the West and elsewhere.

Victimhood is not so black and white or broad brush. Some people will be victims in some contexts and settings, while in others they will not be. In some settings whites can surely be victims, while in others they are not. The issue is whether or not whites can be victims of racism.

Atlantis wrote:You do understand that the idea of white victim-hood is driving Trumpean right-wing populism?


Again, victimhood is not clear cut or black and white.

Atlantis wrote:That's an odd way of characterizing the colonial conquest. The natives had the right to resist a foreign invasion which reduced them to 2nd class citizens in their own country.


Are white citizens of post-colonial societies still colonial invaders?

Atlantis wrote:Maybe it's hard to understand for Anglophones, but the term has clearly discriminatory character. White, especially Anglo-Saxon, expats in Africa or Asia are what used to be the white colonial masters of colonial times - all the colonial soldiers of fortune who tried to make a fortune by exploiting their privilege.


The article mentions intended length of stay and intentions for moving as potential nuances in the meaning of the term, "Expat."
#15099258
Political Interest wrote:Yes, I am contesting it while at the same time not denying systemic discrimination and racism against POC in the West and elsewhere.


Which is completely contradictory and makes absolutely no sense.

Seriously, Robin DiAngelo's White Fragility (2018, Beacon Press) was basically written with guys like you in mind. It could potentially be an eye-opener for you, PI.
#15099287
Tainari88 wrote:This is a partial history of the word. It is old and steeped in a lot of oppressive uses. But in modern times it was adopted by African Americans who were urban underclass and used among themselves as a way of identifying with their historical past as being looked down upon.

Notice the Chevy Chase and Richard Pryor skit and why Chase could not use the word but Pryor could? That is a very important distinction.

Here:

So in your view , does the race of the person using this epithet change the context ? For example , what would you make of this rap number ? Is it fine for her to utter such rhetoric , but wrong for a white counterpart ? Why , or why not ?
#15099316
@Deutschmania first off that woman is horrible at lyrics and rapping. I don't like her at all. Lol. But? She is part of an urban culture in which most people who are black have their own code. Have you ever heard of Black English or ebonics? It is a language that is about a specific culture and it is like code switching and other types of linguistic usages among a group within a greater society. She is black talking to a black person who's roots were in the USA's segregated Southern states. That "N" word was used often and referred to a person's socioeconomic status and color in a society segregated by race.

You should look up the history of when Black people became property and any white person had the right to use violence with impunity to make that black person obey what they wanted them to obey. They did it to avoid coalitons of indentured servants, and other forms of white slaves and black slaves from uniting against the landed gentry in the 17th century before the USA became a republic. Here Bacon's Rebellion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacon's_Rebellion

Notice how the indentured white servants and the slaves did start to identify with each other's plights and rattled the ruling class. So they created codes to give whites a psychological advantage and create a wedge between them in order to control them better. Language like the N word solidifies the wedge. All language has a meaning behind it. In the case of African Americans who choose to call each other that? It has to do with Southern Plantation cultural roots. It is by and large purged from the vocabulary of African Americans with formal educations and with higher positions, professional jobs, and with professions in the public eye.

It has to do with cultural and class markers and contexts Deustchmania.
#15099323
Donna wrote:Which is completely contradictory and makes absolutely no sense.

Seriously, Robin DiAngelo's White Fragility (2018, Beacon Press) was basically written with guys like you in mind. It could potentially be an eye-opener for you, PI.



The case for white fragility is very strong. A true white nordic person with pink skin and white hair is made of recessive genes. The other two racial groups: Asian and Black have dominant genes. Any mixing and the whiteness starts to fade away. Whites have a very low fertility rate. In the not so distant future you will only see white people in wax museums. It has been predicted that in 10,000 years the entire world will be olive skin. Sadly. discrimination will still exist on the basis of looks, height, and skills.


That argument has been heavily debated, so we're not entirely sure if people will be around or not. But if they are, in 10,000 years there will be no regional genetic variation between humans. That's not to say people will all look the same, but whatever genetic differences there are - such as blue eyes versus brown - will be evenly distributed across the planet.

https://www.sciencealert.com/here-s-wha ... to-science
#15099331
Julian658 wrote:The case for white fragility is very strong. A true white nordic person with pink skin and white hair is made of recessive genes. The other two racial groups: Asian and Black have dominant genes.


This is completely bogus pseudoscience. "Recessive whiteness" is only real in the heads of racists.

Any mixing and the whiteness starts to fade away.


Whiteness isn't an objective biological reality. The fact that mixed-race people aren't considered white (Barack Obama, for example) has nothing to do with genes and everything to do with intersubjective social constructions.


It has been predicted that in 10,000 years the entire world will be olive skin.


Humanity might actually stand a chance if this happens.
#15099373
Political Interest wrote:Yes, I am contesting it while at the same time not denying systemic discrimination and racism against POC in the West and elsewhere.


That is contradictory. If you admit systemic discrimination against colored people that whites aren't subjected to, you also admit white privilege. That there are underprivileged people in white societies like in any other society is beside the point. That's an issue of socioeconomic inequality and not an issue of race.

Victimhood is not so black and white or broad brush. Some people will be victims in some contexts and settings, while in others they will not be. In some settings whites can surely be victims, while in others they are not. The issue is whether or not whites can be victims of racism.


When I talked about victim-hood, I meant imagined victim-hood used as a political narrative. For example, the Nazis claimed victim-hood because they saw Germany being the victim of a Jewish conspiracy, while Trump claims victim-hood because he believes that Americans are being exploited by foreigners. Was Germany a victim of the Jews? Is the most powerful and richest country today a victim exploited by foreigners? Emphatically no to both cases.

Anybody can be a victim. Maybe you are a victim of your wife who beats you up ;), but we are not talking about that here, we are talking about victims of systemic racial discrimination. Whites are not victims of system discrimination, neither at home nor abroad.

The example of the Rochdale grooming gang you gave is not valid. The men exploited vulnerable girls who happened to be white. They wouldn't have been able to exploit other white women. Thus, their targets were vulnerable girls and not white girls per se. It is true that some non-whites, especially Arabs, consider white women to be easy game for sex. That's because promiscuity is common among whites but strictly prohibited in traditional Arab society. These men are as disgusting as Trump who talks about grabbing them by the pussy, but it's not racial discrimination because the way promiscuity is viewed in the West isn't their fault.

Are white citizens of post-colonial societies still colonial invaders?


History is a continuum. The socioeconomic position of African-American and the race tensions today are rooted in a cycle of violence and hate that goes back to the days of slavery. So yes, the heirs of an unjust regime have the responsibility to compensate the victims. Otherwise the spiral of hate and violence will go on forever. For society to heal, there needs to be closure. That can not happen if the injustice is denied or swept under the carpet.

The article mentions intended length of stay and intentions for moving as potential nuances in the meaning of the term, "Expat."


The different usage of the terms expat and immigrants is one of race and not of length of stay. Both can imply a short of a long stay.
#15099374
Donna wrote:This is completely bogus pseudoscience. "Recessive whiteness" is only real in the heads of racists.

Whiteness isn't an objective biological reality. The fact that mixed-race people aren't considered white (Barack Obama, for example) has nothing to do with genes and everything to do with intersubjective social constructions.


The concept of racism is a social construct. However that some genes are dominant and others recessive is simple biology.

Humanity might actually stand a chance if this happens.


Many think that the extinction of the West and Westerners may be good. Why? I cannot understand that one.

As a Latin American I see major confusion and chaos in America with respect to racial groups. IN Cuba there are no whites or blacks. Everybody is labeled a Cuban. That sort of social construct works better. In any event human evolution has ended due to technology. The only change into the future is a single phenotype of humans.
#15099376
Julian658 wrote:Many think that the extinction of the West and Westerners may be good. Why? I cannot understand that one.
Extinction of the West and Westerners? :eh: What makes you think such a silly thing?

Their skin colour doesn't change who they are. Nice racism, though... if they're not WHITE they aren't Western, amIright? :knife:

Julian658 wrote:As a Latin American I see major confusion and chaos in America with respect to racial groups.
As you've already said, races are a social distinction, so we do not NEED your bullshit racism.

Julian658 wrote:In any event human evolution has ended due to technology.
That's complete rubbish. :roll: Please source this silly claim.

Julian658 wrote:The only change into the future is a single phenotype of humans.
No. You're not going to have that happen, despite what you might think. Can you support this claim with a source, or is this just your racist attempt to say everyone being the same non-white colour would be bad?
#15099383
Godstud wrote:Extinction of the West and Westerners? :eh: What makes you think such a silly thing?

Their skin colour doesn't change who they are. Nice racism, though... if they're not WHITE they aren't Western, amIright? :knife:

As you've already said, races are a social distinction, so we do not NEED your bullshit racism.

That's complete rubbish. :roll: Please source this silly claim.

No. You're not going to have that happen, despite what you might think. Can you support this claim with a source, or is this just your racist attempt to say everyone being the same non-white colour would be bad?

This is stupid, idiotic, moronic, and incoherent post that merits no response.
#15099386
Julian658 wrote:This is stupid, idiotic, moronic, and incoherent post that merits no response.
:lol: You can't support your theories(or even defend them) with sources, so you whine like the little racist bitch that you are.

Yes, your theories are stupid, idiotic, moronic, and incoherent. I am glad you took the time to comment on your own post. :D
#15099393
Godstud wrote::lol: You can't support your theories(or even defend them) with sources, so you whine like the little racist bitch that you are.

Yes, your theories are stupid, idiotic, moronic, and incoherent. I am glad you took the time to comment on your own post. :D

Stop fighting Kidz! :moron: have a pint :cheers:
#15099400
Spider-Man wrote:Stop fighting Kidz! :moron: have a pint :cheers:

It was my mistake. One should never reply to a trolling incoherent post that seems to be written by person with dementia.
#15099458
Donna wrote:Which is completely contradictory and makes absolutely no sense.

Seriously, Robin DiAngelo's White Fragility (2018, Beacon Press) was basically written with guys like you in mind. It could potentially be an eye-opener for you, PI.


Thank you. It might change my mind but I am very closed minded.

Atlantis wrote:That is contradictory. If you admit systemic discrimination against colored people that whites aren't subjected to, you also admit white privilege. That there are underprivileged people in white societies like in any other society is beside the point. That's an issue of socioeconomic inequality and not an issue of race.


Whites are also subject to it when they do not possess institutional power.

Atlantis wrote:Anybody can be a victim. Maybe you are a victim of your wife who beats you up ;), but we are not talking about that here, we are talking about victims of systemic racial discrimination. Whites are not victims of system discrimination, neither at home nor abroad.


That is a rather broad claim, one without any empirical evidence either.

Atlantis wrote:The example of the Rochdale grooming gang you gave is not valid. The men exploited vulnerable girls who happened to be white. They wouldn't have been able to exploit other white women. Thus, their targets were vulnerable girls and not white girls per se. It is true that some non-whites, especially Arabs, consider white women to be easy game for sex. That's because promiscuity is common among whites but strictly prohibited in traditional Arab society. These men are as disgusting as Trump who talks about grabbing them by the pussy, but it's not racial discrimination because the way promiscuity is viewed in the West isn't their fault.


The gangsters exploited anyone they could get their hands on, including people from all ethnicities and religious groups.

I showed you a source where one of the white victims was racially abused. At least in that context there was racism involved. The victims were white. That's the end of it.

Atlantis wrote:History is a continuum. The socioeconomic position of African-American and the race tensions today are rooted in a cycle of violence and hate that goes back to the days of slavery. So yes, the heirs of an unjust regime have the responsibility to compensate the victims. Otherwise the spiral of hate and violence will go on forever. For society to heal, there needs to be closure. That can not happen if the injustice is denied or swept under the carpet.


What about whites in places such as Japan and Korea?

Atlantis wrote:The different usage of the terms expat and immigrants is one of race and not of length of stay. Both can imply a short of a long stay.


That is a statement and not a fact.
#15099471
@Political Interest, you still haven't provided any evidence for whites being subjected to systemic racism. If you think that the individual cases of racism against whites you have mentioned represent systemic racism, then you don't know what racism is all about. You haven't put yourself in the position of a colored person who suffers some sort of discrimination every day of his/her life.

Whites are privileged not only in white societies but almost everywhere they go. With a British passport you can go without visa to almost any country you want to go. You can even settle in numerous countries without too much hassle. Most black Africans can only emigrate illegally by risking their lives. I have shown you how black and white Americans are treated differently in third countries like Japan. The color of your skin determines whether you are welcome or not. The same applies to many countries where whites don't have "institutional power" as you put it.

That is white privilege.
#15099475
Atlantis wrote:@Political Interest, you still haven't provided any evidence for whites being subjected to systemic racism. If you think that the individual cases of racism against whites you have mentioned represent systemic racism, then you don't know what racism is all about. You haven't put yourself in the position of a colored person who suffers some sort of discrimination every day of his/her life.

Whites are privileged not only in white societies but almost everywhere they go. With a British passport you can go without visa to almost any country you want to go. You can even settle in numerous countries without too much hassle. Most black Africans can only emigrate illegally by risking their lives. I have shown you how black and white Americans are treated differently in third countries like Japan. The color of your skin determines whether you are welcome or not. The same applies to many countries where whites don't have "institutional power" as you put it.

That is white privilege.


How can blacks achieved that sort of privilege? Do you have any ideas?
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