Am I racist in your opinion? - Page 7 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Polls on politics, news, current affairs and history.

Am I racist?

Yes
14
56%
No
11
44%
#15100541
Julian658 wrote:How can blacks achieved that sort of privilege? Do you have any ideas?


Live in an alternate history where the last 600 years of history did not happen.

Here is a better question:

What can white people do about their own racism?
#15100544
Pants-of-dog wrote:Live in an alternate history where the last 600 years of history did not happen.

Here is a better question:

What can white people do about their own racism?


Why do you talk about White people as if they were others, when you are White yourself?
#15100551
wat0n wrote:Why do you talk about White people as if they were others, when you are White yourself?


You seem to pay more attention to the person arguing than you do to the argument.
#15100566
Pants-of-dog wrote:You seem to pay more attention to the person arguing than you do to the argument.


Why do you speak in third person when, as stated by yourself elsewhere, you would be included into the "White" category? And more importantly, what should Whites - including yourself - do about racism?
#15100568
Acknowledging that racism exists and is a problem that should be addressed, is the first step towards it. The next step is doing something about racist policies and laws that discriminate. Not accepting racism and being anti-racist is a necessity.

It's not hard, but even you can't acknowledge that you're supporting and defending racism @wat0n and you appear to be of the more reasonable, less reactionary, and seemingly intelligent of the right-wing racists on this forum.
#15100584
Godstud wrote:Acknowledging that racism exists and is a problem that should be addressed, is the first step towards it. The next step is doing something about racist policies and laws that discriminate. Not accepting racism and being anti-racist is a necessity.

It's not hard, but even you can't acknowledge that you're supporting and defending racism @wat0n and you are one of the more reasonable and seemingly intelligent of the right-wing racists on this forum.


Just because I don't agree with you on everything I'm not suddenly a racist or a supporter of racism. That is only a ridiculous ad-hominem attack, but I don't expect much from you - you aren't even seemingly intelligent anyway.

Despite the above, I agree, we should get rid of whatever racist laws might be in the books. But that doesn't seem to be something only people from a particular race should do. And if you want to single a people with a given skin pigmentation out, and it happens to be your own, then I don't understand why would you do so in third person. Why not speak in first person in that case?

Pants-of-Dog wrote:Yes, what should whites do about racism?


Well that's what I'm asking you. Personally I think the first thing would be to treat people fairly, in a colorblind manner and which implies rooting all sorts of racial discrimination out with no exceptions. Old fashioned, I know, but whatever.

The second one would be to just present the scientific evidence showing race has little biological basis. The main assumption behind racism is that, particularly for the most toxic and dangerous ones.

The third one would then consist in finding and fixing all the socioeconomic determinants for whatever differences in relevant outcomes exist based on race (when they exist). This of course requires both legislation and nuance, since these may not arise for simple reasons - including racism itself. And this means scientific inquiry should be the main guide, rather than ideology or any prior beliefs on the matter.
#15100592
wat0n wrote:Well that's what I'm asking you.


No, that is what I am asking @Julian658.

Personally I think the first thing would be to treat people fairly, in a colorblind manner and which implies rooting all sorts of racial discrimination out with no exceptions. Old fashioned, I know, but whatever.


What do you mean by colorblind?

The second one would be to just present the scientific evidence showing race has little biological basis. The main assumption behind racism is that, particularly for the most toxic and dangerous ones.


This has never worked in my experience. Racists just ignore the science.

The third one would then consist in finding and fixing all the socioeconomic determinants for whatever differences in relevant outcomes exist based on race (when they exist). This of course requires both legislation and nuance, since these may not arise for simple reasons - including racism itself. And this means scientific inquiry should be the main guide, rather than ideology or any prior beliefs on the matter.


I think listening to black people and other targets of racism would be a much better start than all of this.
#15100614
Pants-of-dog wrote:No, that is what I am asking @Julian658.


Okay.

Pants-of-dog wrote:What do you mean by colorblind?


Blind to color, i.e. treat everyone equally and hold them to the same standard. Both in personal life and the law.

Pants-of-dog wrote:This has never worked in my experience. Racists just ignore the science.


Indeed, but they ignore everything in general. If you try to repress them, they also react in kind.

Instead, however, the idea is not to change their mind but to prevent the spread of the disease. It's an approach that works FWIW.

Pants-of-dog wrote:I think listening to black people and other targets of racism would be a much better start than all of this.


They should certainly be listened to, but emotional responses don't fix problems. In the course of doing so, you will just create new ones, and you will also breed resentment in the process (which is why Trump is in the White House right now). However, addressing those socioeconomic determinants of the racial gaps would (hopefully) be regarded as tolerable for everyone else. In particular, it should address most (not all, but most) of the issues African Americans face, and also some of the issues poor Whites face which should help reduce the pushback of excessively racializing policy. It would also help to prevent and eliminate new biases, such as the concept of a "diversity hire", in the long run.
#15100662
wat0n wrote:Okay.



Blind to color, i.e. treat everyone equally and hold them to the same standard. Both in personal life and the law.


The trouble with that is that it ignores the reality and experiences of people who have dealt with racism and therefore runs the risk of perpetuating racism by not listening to them.

Indeed, but they ignore everything in general. If you try to repress them, they also react in kind.

Instead, however, the idea is not to change their mind but to prevent the spread of the disease. It's an approach that works FWIW.


Again, I think I will listen to BIPOC people about what actually works.

They should certainly be listened to, but emotional responses don't fix problems. In the course of doing so, you will just create new ones, and you will also breed resentment in the process (which is why Trump is in the White House right now). However, addressing those socioeconomic determinants of the racial gaps would (hopefully) be regarded as tolerable for everyone else. In particular, it should address most (not all, but most) of the issues African Americans face, and also some of the issues poor Whites face which should help reduce the pushback of excessively racializing policy. It would also help to prevent and eliminate new biases, such as the concept of a "diversity hire", in the long run.


This seems counter to reality. Trump is in the WH because he parlayed racism into votes. It had nothing to do with backlash against anti-racism.

And if you just focus on measurable economic gains, you ignore other facets of racism like police brutality against blacks.
#15100672
Pants-of-dog wrote:The trouble with that is that it ignores the reality and experiences of people who have dealt with racism and therefore runs the risk of perpetuating racism by not listening to them.


I beg to disagree. I think dealing with the consequences of racism can be done in that manner, as long as it is the consequences themselves that are addressed by the law (and policy). For instance, since poverty is a consequence (and also a cause) of racism then I think that what needs to be addressed is poverty itself, rather than beat around the bush on the matter. Particularly if people are otherwise treated equally (as enforced by anti-discrimination laws).

Perhaps one apparent exception to that rule would be reparations for some past wrongs that were carried out due to the racism prevalent in the past. For instance, consider reparations for slavery. If those were approved by the law, it would apparently be a policy meant to favor Americans of a particular race. Yet I disagree, since reparations should be given to the descendants of slaves which - in the American context - would not only include pretty much all African Americans who come from the South (since they were not freemen anyway), possibly most or almost all of those from the North (since slavery used to be legal there until the late 18th and early 19th centuries) but also people from other backgrounds whose ancestors were enslaved. Possibly, some Native Americans and perhaps even some Whites. The reason of why this isn't really based on race is that, although it disproportionately benefits African Americans, in the end the goal of that policy is to compensate for slavery, not something else. This is a similar logic against assuming that all differences between African and White Americans where the former do worse than the latter are due to systemic racism - such a reparations would not be a form of antirracism but simply a compensation for allowing slavery in the past, and they would and should also be separate from a simple anti-poverty strategy or routine income redistribution/social policy. I think those would be fine, but it would need to be part of a broader national agreement in the US.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Again, I think I will listen to BIPOC people about what actually works.


Wouldn't it make more sense to simply state scientific facts and follow scientific literature in general? This includes social sciences, whose evidence is of course not as strong as the physical ones.

Pants-of-dog wrote:This seems counter to reality. Trump is in the WH because he parlayed racism into votes. It had nothing to do with backlash against anti-racism.


Of course it did, why else do you think he successfully managed to run under stuff like "fighting political correctness"?

Pants-of-dog wrote:And if you just focus on measurable economic gains, you ignore other facets of racism like police brutality against blacks.


No, I don't propose literally focusing exclusively on measurable economic gains, hence my support for general equal treatment. But I think that poverty and general socioeconomic status is the underlying reason behind much of the discrimination on other aspects, including police brutality, since African Americans are overrepresented among the poor. I mentioned it to @Donna on the George Floyd thread, but the US has a history of whitification of immigrants when they catch up socioeconomically. Whether this can extend beyond those who look like Europeans remains to be seen, but we should be getting evidence soon enough because of the case of Asian Americans, and in the future also from (some) Hispanic Americans. The good thing though is that we don't even need to wait until we observe this, since fighting poverty is a worthy goal in itself :)
#15100681
Colorblindness seems like a way for white liberals to ignore any racism that is not overt, including their own, by pretending that there is already equality.

It is analogous to pretending that we can all use the stairs because we do not see that some people use wheelchairs.
#15100931
I feel that it all comes down to what definition of racism one holds to . https://metro.co.uk/2020/02/28/way-define-racism-may-stop-seeing-definition-hold-12287889/ From the article .
If our understanding of racism is that it’s only when people knowingly believe they are superior, then we are actively ignoring the true insidious ways it operates.

It’s important to understand that racism is much more than outright thinking one race is better than the other. Most of us probably don’t go around thinking our skin is better than the colour of other people’s skin
Things that don't fit into the traditional definition of racism but may still contribute to it:
Mixing up people who seem to be the same ethnicity
Not bothering to learn an ethnic name, always mispronouncing it, calling them something that’s easier to pronounce, making a show of saying it
Touching a black person’s hair
Asking easily searchable things to the only minority person in your vicinity
Making assumptions based on race
Seeing racism in things that are not racist
Singing the N-word in songs
Calling a black person ‘uppity’
Being ‘colour-blind’
Speaking over a person of colour talking about racism
Bringing up an unrelated race topic while talking to a person of colour (eg ‘I would’ve voted for Obama for a third term’)
Telling people you watched a minority-led film multiple times, such as Black Panther, Crazy Rich Asians, Get Out
Using the example of a famous person of colour to deny how racist something is
Blackface/cultural appropriation where you ‘borrow’ cultural items as a costume
Denying/being defensive when confronted with the idea of racism
Bringing up someone’s race when it’s not relevant
Referring to ‘the race card’
Not believing that people of colour contribute to society
Covering up racism as ‘opinion’ or ‘freedom of speech’
Asking for evidence when a person of colour explains their lived experience
Telling someone they’re racist for bringing up race
Thinking you’re privy to racial struggles because you have diverse members in your family/social groups
#15100932
Pants-of-dog wrote:Live in an alternate history where the last 600 years of history did not happen.

Here is a better question:

What can white people do about their own racism?

Why do the blacks put their fate on white people?
The basis of racial group discrimination is that one group feels they are superior to the other. You are asking the group that feels superior to stop feeling superior. Is that correct? How do you achieve that? Is asking in itself is a position of weakness?
#15100962
Julian658 wrote:Why do the blacks put their fate on white people?


They do not. You are wrong.

What can white people do about their own racism?

The basis of racial group discrimination is that one group feels they are superior to the other. You are asking the group that feels superior to stop feeling superior. Is that correct?


No. No one is talking about feelings.

Racism involves prejudice, discrimination, unequal treatment from the law and society, lack of access to opportunities, and other measurable things.
#15100973
Pants-of-dog wrote:They do not. You are wrong.

What can white people do about their own racism?


There are antiracism laws on the books. The big question is how do you change the mindset of individuals that are racist? Do you have any ideas?


No. No one is talking about feelings.


POD, people that are not racist fall in two categories:

Republican types:
Republicans: Teach the poor minorities to fish.
Democrats: Feed the fish to the poor minorities everyday.

Which one works best?


Racism involves prejudice, discrimination, unequal treatment from the law and society, lack of access to opportunities, and other measurable things.


Why do African immigrants earn much more and are more successful than American blacks? Do you know the answer? There is a hint above.
#15100976
Pants-of-dog wrote:Colorblindness seems like a way for white liberals to ignore any racism that is not overt, including their own, by pretending that there is already equality.

It is analogous to pretending that we can all use the stairs because we do not see that some people use wheelchairs.

The above is a very condescending racist post. That is the worst type of racism. How dare you assume minorities are incapable or crippled?
#15100978
Julian658 wrote:The above is a very condescending racist post. That is the worst type of racism. How dare you assume minorities are incapable or crippled?


Strawman.

What can white people do abut their racism?

I am ignoring all your other questions until you answer this.
#15100983
Pants-of-dog wrote:Strawman.

What can white people do abut their racism?

I am ignoring all your other questions until you answer this.

Provide equal opportunities to all.
If some minorities ask for preferences that will cause MORE RACISM POD.
If minorities do not do well with equal opportunities I am OK with providing remedial programs.
#15101034
Racism is natural. As I had to give my hand to a darkish Gypsie girl in communist Yugoslawia I refused because she looked ill.


The white race is an aging and dying race due to gender craziness
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