[ckaihatsu]

Now what about the War on Drugs -- can we *abolish* the police on that one?

[Dimetrodon]

Now what about the War on Drugs -- can we *abolish* the police on that one?

Sure, but that's not really police abolition either.

@Random American As long as we understand that the vast amjority of people don't consider it abolition, then we are probably in agreement.


Police have a role. We just need to limit that role, greatly, and make sure they are trained for it.

I agree with what you're saying. We do rely on them too much and the true abolitionists are just a crazy minority.

[ckaihatsu]

Sure, but that's not really police abolition either.


I agree with what you're saying. We do rely on them too much and the true abolitionists are just a crazy minority.

Okay, well, then, in the interests of not being a 'crazy minority', I'll step back over *that* line and just call for *defunding the police* so that the funding can be reallocated to social-services-type avenues -- especially ones that really aren't appropriately served by a *police* response, which only increases the risk for cops becoming *killer* cops.

[Godstud]

"Abolition" seems to be synonymous with deconstructing the police departments, and reconstructing them into something modern, and better. They don't expect to dissolve them completely and not replace them.

[Julian658]

"Abolition" seems to be synonymous with deconstructing the police departments, and reconstructing them into something modern, and better. They don't expect to dissolve them completely and not replace them.

The cities where blacks live in despair and high crime have been under Democratic control for over five decades. They have black Dem majors, city councilmen, school board, and chief of police. They have done an awful job for over 50 years. And now they want to blame this on the Republicans and the police. And the solution is less cops and more social workers. We all know this will not work. And when it fails they will blame the Republicans again even though there are no elected Republicans in these cities.

WHAT A SCAM to inflate the government and to promote more corruption!

[Dimetrodon]

Increasing the size of government isn't really a bad thing, though I'm not in favor of defunding law enforcement. I'm for decreasing their role in plenty of non-criminal matters, but that's not the same thing. I'm also not a Democrat, but I don't think things would be better if Republicans were put in charge of these areas.

[Julian658]

Increasing the size of government isn't really a bad thing, though I'm not in favor of defunding law enforcement. I'm for decreasing their role in plenty of non-criminal matters, but that's not the same thing. I'm also not a Democrat,

The problem with crime is culture and the government in charge in these cities. Imagine if you were told you are a victim 24/7 and that you have no hope of making it because of racism. You would grow up with depression, anger, lack of hope, and nihilism. The system the Democrats run is basically built on condescending racism of low expectations. They infantilize the black people and make them believe they need an adult white neoliberal to hold their hands. They assume black Americans is the weakest group in the planet while ignoring that black immigrants form Africa and the West Indies have no problems.

but I don't think things would be better if Republicans were put in charge of these areas.

The cure does not depend on a Democrat or a Republican. The cure has to come from within.

[ckaihatsu]

"Abolition" seems to be synonymous with deconstructing the police departments, and reconstructing them into something modern, and better. They don't expect to dissolve them completely and not replace them.

I backpedaled slightly from the 'abolition' position because I don't think it could *ever* happen, realistically, while we're still under bourgeois capitalism -- abolishing the police entirely requires a proletarian revolution to abolish *class*, which would eliminate the need for wealth to be protected by physical force, by *abolishing* wealth.

The cities where blacks live in despair and high crime have been under Democratic control for over five decades. They have black Dem majors, city councilmen, school board, and chief of police. They have done an awful job for over 50 years. And now they want to blame this on the Republicans and the police.

And the solution is less cops and more social workers. We all know this will not work. And when it fails they will blame the Republicans again even though there are no elected Republicans in these cities.

WHAT A SCAM to inflate the government and to promote more corruption!

Anti-austerity / pro-social-services measures would be *appropriate* at this point because there's been so much *anti-social* legislation over the past several decades.

People, especially people of color, have been *disadvantaged*, and the government is the most appropriate institution to make up for the failings of the private sector / markets, as Trump recently demonstrated by putting forth *trillions* in public funds -- it's just that too little of the bailouts were *demand*-sided, and too much was *supply*-sided.

The problem with crime is culture and the government in charge in these cities. Imagine if you were told you are a victim 24/7 and that you have no hope of making it because of racism. You would grow up with depression, anger, lack of hope, and nihilism. The system the Democrats run is basically built on condescending racism of low expectations. They infantilize the black people and make them believe they need an adult white neoliberal to hold their hands. They assume black Americans is the weakest group in the planet while ignoring that black immigrants form Africa and the West Indies have no problems.


The cure does not depend on a Democrat or a Republican. The cure has to come from within.

This is simply blaming-the-victim, though, because the *supply* of things that people need and want, for modern life and living, comes from *without*, and it's *not* a matter of 'culture'.

Society could *start* by making sure that economics / materials aren't *lacking*, for any given person's life, and then, after *that*, we could possibly look at culture once we know that it's not *material conditions* causing the disparity in 'success', by racial demographic, or *any* demographic.

[Julian658]

Anti-austerity / pro-social-services measures would be *appropriate* at this point because there's been so much *anti-social* legislation over the past several decades.

A great deal of poor people live in cities that are nearly 100% run by black Democrats. The run the schools, the police and the city. They have failed to serve the poor. All they do is line the pockets of the elite. There are no conservatives in charge in most of these cities.

People, especially people of color, have been *disadvantaged*, and the government is the most appropriate institution to make up for the failings of the private sector / markets, as Trump recently demonstrated by putting forth *trillions* in public funds -- it's just that too little of the bailouts were *demand*-sided, and too much was *supply*-sided.

The solution has to come from within. The ideal that an entire group of people place their hopes and dreams on another group to move up socioeconomically is madness. This has never worked or been done in world history. This idea infantilizes poor black Americans and treats them as the weakest group that ever lived on the planet. This condescending racism of low expectations is awful.

This is simply blaming-the-victim, though, because the *supply* of things that people need and want, for modern life and living, comes from *without*, and it's *not* a matter of 'culture'.

Society could *start* by making sure that economics / materials aren't *lacking*, for any given person's life, and then, after *that*, we could possibly look at culture once we know that it's not *material conditions* causing the disparity in 'success', by racial demographic, or *any* demographic.

It is culture! We know it is culture because immigrant people of color with a different cultural background do quite well in America.

[ckaihatsu]

A great deal of poor people live in cities that are nearly 100% run by black Democrats. The run the schools, the police and the city. They have failed to serve the poor. All they do is line the pockets of the elite. There are no conservatives in charge in most of these cities.

Conservatives / reactionaries like yourself would just tout the 'culture' mantra, which would blame the victims for their imherited 'culture'.

Again, it's the *material* circumstances that have to be addressed, as a priority -- let's get everyone food, housing, utilities, health care, education, and transportation, etc., so that we can eliminate *material necessity* from the equation.

The solution has to come from within. The ideal that an entire group of people place their hopes and dreams on another group to move up socioeconomically is madness.

People don't generally own *their own* factories, so the average person can't just flip a switch and make a house appear. Ditto for food, utilities, etc. -- that's *not* an 'internal' issue, it's an *external* issue, meaning how modern stuff is produced and distributed.


Components of Social Production

Spoiler: show

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This has never worked or been done in world history. This idea infantilizes poor black Americans and treats them as the weakest group that ever lived on the planet. This condescending racism of low expectations is awful.

Shit! Get off of the 'competition' paradigm -- people don't have to 'prove' their 'suitability' as individuals anymore, because we're not on the fucking Oregon Trail, or whatever. Black people, in particular, were forcibly brought over to the U.S. as *slaves*, and built the initial country with their *slave labor*. What's wrong with you, to blame black people for their *culture*, given this *history*?

We now live in an *industrial* age, meaning that machines can now produce sufficiently for *everyone*, so that there no longer has to be any contrived 'race', of 'individuals', for the basics of modern life and living. Get *over* it!

It is culture! We know it is culture because immigrant people of color with a different cultural background do quite well in America.

So what? This isn't blue-camp-versus-red-camp time -- let's get *materials*, from *factories*, to *people*, and then afterwards we all can leisurely pontificate about cultures of the past.