[late]

What do you propose?

Most of what you oppose.

[Julian658]

Most of what you oppose.

late, don't be cute.
In any event this is what I propose:
Free college to those with academic skills. Free Tech school for those that are not academically inclined, but have other skills. Those with income would be expected to pay for tuition.

High end military prep schools for all AAs descendants of slaves.

A national Marshall type plan for BIPOCs to emulate the east Asian model with regards to academics. In this instance i may even include non-BIPOCs.

Copy the French philosophy and prohibit racial classification of humans. This leads to tribalism.

Stop the tribalism of both the right and the left.

The opposite of the above sounds like a terrible idea.

[Pants-of-dog]

Many countries in the Americas already offer free PSE, as well as some western European countries. The only thing comparable in North America, however, is the CEGEP system in Quebec, which costs about $300 CAD a year for students.

I would not be surprised if the developed countries of the world offered free PSE in the future and the USA and other developing countries made it even more expensive. kinda like health care.

[Julian658]

Many countries in the Americas already offer free PSE, as well as some western European countries. The only thing comparable in North America, however, is the CEGEP system in Quebec, which costs about $300 CAD a year for students.

I would not be surprised if the developed countries of the world offered free PSE in the future and the USA and other developing countries made it even more expensive. kinda like health care.

Acronym Definition
PSE Please (logging abbreviation)
PSE Philippine Stock Exchange
PSE Precision Shooting Equipment
PSE Photoshop Elements (Adobe image software)

Could you be more specific
Thanks

[late]

late, don't be cute.


In any event this is what I propose:
Free college to those with academic skills. Free Tech school for those that are not academically inclined, but have other skills. Those with income would be expected to pay for tuition.

High end military prep schools for all AAs descendants of slaves.

A national Marshall type plan for BIPOCs to emulate the east Asian model with regards to academics. In this instance i may even include non-BIPOCs.

Copy the French philosophy and prohibit racial classification of humans. This leads to tribalism.

Stop the tribalism of both the right and the left.

I'm not being cute, you are so consistently wrong it is prob intentional much of the time.

There is no support for a massive upper education bill. But I'd love to see college aid going to low income kids with talent, but just for STEM majors.

Military prep schools are a terrible idea. We need to build good schools in poor communities, and provide enough support to make them work, starting with pre K for all low income families. When I say support, I see that as a broad mandate including policing reform, and basic health care.

The East Asian secondary schools are not good, and no one here would tolerate the discipline needed to make them work. Kids would also not tolerate the heavy emphasis on rote memorisation, nor should they.

You can't close your eyes and wish racism away, even if you're French.

The Right has gone insane. We're gonna need some ideas on how to deal with that.

[Julian658]

I'm not being cute, you are so consistently wrong it is prob intentional much of the time.

There is no support for a massive upper education bill. But I'd love to see college aid going to low income kids with talent, but just for STEM majors.

Military prep schools are a terrible idea. We need to build good schools in poor communities, and provide enough support to make them work, starting with pre K for all low income families. When I say support, I see that as a broad mandate including policing reform, and basic health care.

The East Asian secondary schools are not good, and no one here would tolerate the discipline needed to make them work. Kids would also not tolerate the heavy emphasis on rote memorisation, nor should they.

You can't close your eyes and wish racism away, even if you're French.

The Right has gone insane. We're gonna need some ideas on how to deal with that.

All you are doing is preaching was has already been tried in the past. The results were poor. Why continue to preach the same?

[Pants-of-dog]

Th nice thing about the CEGEP system is that we know it works. It has been working successfully for decades in an advanced industrialised nation.

There is no reason we cannot implement a system like that all over NA.

[late]

All you are doing is preaching was has already been tried in the past.

"I'm not being cute, you are so consistently wrong it is prob intentional much of the time"

You are also projecting, kiddo... What you're talking about is hardly new. Designing an entire new educational system would be quite new.

Keeping racists from doing their usual savagery would also be new.

[Julian658]

Th nice thing about the CEGEP system is that we know it works. It has been working successfully for decades in an advanced industrialised nation.

There is no reason we cannot implement a system like that all over NA.

POD YAAVFG! CYP state what is CEGEP?

[Julian658]

"I'm not being cute, you are so consistently wrong it is prob intentional much of the time"

You are also projecting, kiddo... What you're talking about is hardly new. Designing an entire new educational system would be quite new.

Keeping racists from doing their usual savagery would also be new.

WTF!!!!

Who has been running the public education in America?? The republicans?

NO!!!!!! The education system is run by the NEA which is hard core left and democrat.

You have to do better than that late.

Washington DC spends a fortune per student with regards to education. There are no Republicans in DC late. What are you smoking??

[late]

Who has been running the public education in America??

You are babbling.

The usual savagery is violence. The terrorism against Blacks that has so long stained my country, schools have little to nothing to do with it.

[Drlee]

Both PO and (in this thread) Drlee are veterans (and I was a veteran, joined up again and will return to veteranhood very soon), so they and others may recognise something from my own experience. As both a mental health clinician and an educator, I have lost count over the years of the number of soldiers I have encountered who were clearly highly intelligent, but who had been systematically failed by our education system and joined up as 'foot soldiers', without any formal qualifications. I imagine the US military has a similar cohort. One in particular comes to mind - a guy from a deprived background who didn't bother trying at school because he needed no qualifications to join the Army, who having done so was treated as 'thick' for many years until a bright Army Education Officer spotted that he had dyslexia. Once that was identified and allowed for, he raced up the ranks, did an online degree and when he retired did a masters degree. He's now the CEO of a Veterans charity.

This is not as Julian describes it, an outlier. It is pretty common. What is uncommon is that someone caught it and acted to help the soldier. The problem is exacerbated in the US Army (I do not know about the British Army) by our 'up-or-out' promotion system. Absent continuing education the soldier is likely to be dismissed before able to retire. Or just culls himself because he is not promoted.


@julian658

NO!!!! The education system is run by the NEA which is hard core left and democrat

Nonsense. The NEA is just a lobbying organization. They have no power. The education system is run by thousands of local school boards all locally elected. There are guidelines from the feds enforced by a small amount of tax funding for localities under the Department of Education but this influence is minimal. (Too much but minimal.)

I also reject your notion @julian that the US is in any way a meritocracy. It is not. Clearly the most important jobs are not the highest paid jobs. Nor are jobs requiring the most education the highest paid.

I offer as an example careers in social services. These jobs frequently require an advance degree and frequently pay in the $15.00 per hour range. So the very people charged with moving people from poverty to wealth are themselves mostly poor.

[late]

This is not as Julian describes it, an outlier. It is pretty common. What is uncommon is that someone caught it and acted to help the soldier. The problem is exacerbated in the US Army (I do not know about the British Army) by our 'up-or-out' promotion system. Absent continuing education the soldier is likely to be dismissed before able to retire. Or just culls himself because he is not promoted.


@julian658

Nonsense. The NEA is just a lobbying organization. They have no power. The education system is run by thousands of local school boards all locally elected. There are guidelines from the feds enforced by a small amount of tax funding for localities under the Department of Education but this influence is minimal. (Too much but minimal.)

I also reject your notion @julian that the US is in any way a meritocracy. It is not. Clearly the most important jobs are not the highest paid jobs. Nor are jobs requiring the most education the highest paid.

I offer as an example careers in social services. These jobs frequently require an advance degree and frequently pay in the $15.00 per hour range. So the very people charged with moving people from poverty to wealth are themselves mostly poor.

Good post.

There's lots more, like the influence of the Texas Board of Education, or the way the South abandoned public education, not that they ever supported it much.

But the thing with Julian is he is quite content to repeat crap he knows is crap a hundred times. If he's not paid, he really hates Americans. Can't say I could blame him for the latter.

[Julian658]

This is not as Julian describes it, an outlier. It is pretty common. What is uncommon is that someone caught it and acted to help the soldier. The problem is exacerbated in the US Army (I do not know about the British Army) by our 'up-or-out' promotion system. Absent continuing education the soldier is likely to be dismissed before able to retire. Or just culls himself because he is not promoted.

Outliers are outliers. That is why they are called outliers. If the success story described above was not an anecdote then it would be common and not an outlier. An exception to the rule or an anecdote does not prove a point.

@julian658

Nonsense. The NEA is just a lobbying organization. They have no power. The education system is run by thousands of local school boards all locally elected. There are guidelines from the feds enforced by a small amount of tax funding for localities under the Department of Education but this influence is minimal. (Too much but minimal.)

OK, who runs the public schools in DC, Baltimore, New orleans, Chicago, LA, etc.? The left wing democrats run the schools in these places have run the school for decades. late somehow thinks that this time around they will do better if they can get rid of the racist Republicans. However, there are no Republicans running these schools. It is all BS by late. He has no plan.

As for the NEA. They are amazingly powerful and protect the interest of teachers, not students. Bad teachers are protected, they are very much like cop unions

I also reject your notion @julian that the US is in any way a meritocracy. It is not. Clearly the most important jobs are not the highest paid jobs. Nor are jobs requiring the most education the highest paid.

Sure, it is not a perfect meritocracy as networking, word of mouth, and who you know play a role. That is how humans interact and favor each other. However, the ream often raises to the top. As a foreigner in the USA and as one that did not grow up in America i find that the system is quite fair for those that can do the job.

I offer as an example careers in social services. These jobs frequently require an advance degree and frequently pay in the $15.00 per hour range. So the very people charged with moving people from poverty to wealth are themselves mostly poor.

An advanced degree in social work is a dime a dozen diploma. It is an issue of supply and demand.

[Drlee]

An advanced degree in social work is a dime a dozen diploma. It is an issue of supply and demand.

You really aren't all that smart, are you?

Troll much?

How much is Russia paying you?

[Cartertonian]

Outliers are outliers. That is why they are called outliers. If the success story described above was not an anecdote then it would be common and not an outlier. An exception to the rule or an anecdote does not prove a point.

Exceptions to rules do not invalidate the rule, of course...but in your selective quoting you conveniently ignored the statement earlier in that passage that said:

I have lost count over the years of the number of soldiers I have encountered who were clearly highly intelligent, but who had been systematically failed by our education system and joined up as 'foot soldiers', without any formal qualifications.

And if you want peer-reviewed, academic references to support how common this phenomenon is, I have plenty. What you cited was, of course, anecdotal but it was offered as one personal example of many. I have no idea about your credentials Julian, but I have been a soldier for thirty-five years (twenty-seven of which as an officer) and one of my two masters degrees is in Education. I am a Fellow of the Higher Education Academy and a former Research Fellow of a leading UK research institute dedicated to studying military veterans. On this side of the pond, it is accepted that many soldiers joining up with superficially poor intellects do in fact have much more about them than their lack of formal qualifications might indicate, which points to the failings in our primary and secondary education systems but also in our societal attitudes to education more widely. To our government's credit (and I'm generally frugal in affording our government any credit) they know this and have put initatives in place to compensate for soldiers' poor educational backgrounds and enable bright individuals to progress to degree level and beyond.

An advanced degree in social work is a dime a dozen diploma. It is an issue of supply and demand.

This sort of nonsense is a popular fallacy, usually perpetrated by those who erroneously believe that only STEM subjects have any academic merit.

As well as being a clinician and an educator, I am also qualified in personnel selection for the UK military. I can therefore assert with a high degree of confidence that unless a role requires a particular degree subject as an entry requirement, the specific subject of a degree is irrelevant to military recruiters (and o many civilian recruiters too). In the military at least, we would rather select someone with a first class honours degree in flower-arranging than a candidate with a marginal 2:2 in physics or engineering.

The reason why illuminates the fallacy above. Particularly at bachelors' level, the subject of any given award is less important than the demonstrated ability of the holder to think critically and analytically. That's because in reality, a first degree is not teaching you a subject, per se, but teaching you how to learn and more specifically how to critically analyse and synthesise information into a balanced, informed and evidence-based conclusion.

A candidate for employment with a first class honours degree in anything has ably demonstrated that. A candidate with a good 2:1 has demonstrated it sufficiently to be seriously considered. A candidate with a 2:2 (or worse, a third) has just been cruising through university for the experience and ticking the boxes along the way. They will doubtless know something about their chosen subject, but they have failed to acquire sufficient skills in critical analysis to capitalise on their award.

As an aside, since you appear to denigrate the social sciences, (Warning! Anecdote alert!) a friend of mine who was formerly my Corps Regimental Sergeant Major is now a social worker and close to completing their PhD. Another friend - and former student of mine - is a Royal Marine Sgt Major and a qualified social worker. This latter example is interesting because he is an example of some fine decision-making by the Royal Navy. We do not employ uniformed social workers in HM Armed Forces (the US do, btw) so to get around that, the RN sponsor those they employ in welfare roles to undertake social work degrees on a part-time basis, alongside their daily work, thus populating the RN and Royal Marines with welfare officers who are also qualified social workers. The British Army are late (as usual!) to the party, but even they are now offering part-time social work degrees to Army Welfare Services staff.

And the further acquisition of a masters degree is evidence of the individual's ability to not only know their subject, but to have taken their critical analysis skills to a higher level. a 'dime a dozen diploma' it isn't.

[Julian658]

You really aren't all that smart, are you?

Troll much?

How much is Russia paying you?

As usual, you do not have an argument. All you have are personal insults.
I could insult you back, but that would be unfair.

[Julian658]

Exceptions to rules do not invalidate the rule, of course...but in your selective quoting you conveniently ignored the statement earlier in that passage that said:

And if you want peer-reviewed, academic references to support how common this phenomenon is, I have plenty. What you cited was, of course, anecdotal but it was offered as one personal example of many. I have no idea about your credentials Julian, but I have been a soldier for thirty-five years (twenty-seven of which as an officer) and one of my two masters degrees is in Education. I am a Fellow of the Higher Education Academy and a former Research Fellow of a leading UK research institute dedicated to studying military veterans. On this side of the pond, it is accepted that many soldiers joining up with superficially poor intellects do in fact have much more about them than their lack of formal qualifications might indicate, which points to the failings in our primary and secondary education systems but also in our societal attitudes to education more widely. To our government's credit (and I'm generally frugal in affording our government any credit) they know this and have put initatives in place to compensate for soldiers' poor educational backgrounds and enable bright individuals to progress to degree level and beyond.


This sort of nonsense is a popular fallacy, usually perpetrated by those who erroneously believe that only STEM subjects have any academic merit.

As well as being a clinician and an educator, I am also qualified in personnel selection for the UK military. I can therefore assert with a high degree of confidence that unless a role requires a particular degree subject as an entry requirement, the specific subject of a degree is irrelevant to military recruiters (and o many civilian recruiters too). In the military at least, we would rather select someone with a first class honours degree in flower-arranging than a candidate with a marginal 2:2 in physics or engineering.

The reason why illuminates the fallacy above. Particularly at bachelors' level, the subject of any given award is less important than the demonstrated ability of the holder to think critically and analytically. That's because in reality, a first degree is not teaching you a subject, per se, but teaching you how to learn and more specifically how to critically analyse and synthesise information into a balanced, informed and evidence-based conclusion.

A candidate for employment with a first class honours degree in anything has ably demonstrated that. A candidate with a good 2:1 has demonstrated it sufficiently to be seriously considered. A candidate with a 2:2 (or worse, a third) has just been cruising through university for the experience and ticking the boxes along the way. They will doubtless know something about their chosen subject, but they have failed to acquire sufficient skills in critical analysis to capitalise on their award.

As an aside, since you appear to denigrate the social sciences, (Warning! Anecdote alert!) a friend of mine who was formerly my Corps Regimental Sergeant Major is now a social worker and close to completing their PhD. Another friend - and former student of mine - is a Royal Marine Sgt Major and a qualified social worker. This latter example is interesting because he is an example of some fine decision-making by the Royal Navy. We do not employ uniformed social workers in HM Armed Forces (the US do, btw) so to get around that, the RN sponsor those they employ in welfare roles to undertake social work degrees on a part-time basis, alongside their daily work, thus populating the RN and Royal Marines with welfare officers who are also qualified social workers. The British Army are late (as usual!) to the party, but even they are now offering part-time social work degrees to Army Welfare Services staff.

And the further acquisition of a masters degree is evidence of the individual's ability to not only know their subject, but to have taken their critical analysis skills to a higher level. a 'dime a dozen diploma' it isn't.

Talking about fallacies: You are using the well known appeal to authority fallacy.

I do not disagree with the idea that there are plenty of talented people that do not thrive due to lack of opportunity. That is why kids form good homes with competent parents do so well.

BTW, you cannot teach intelligence. At best you can help those that are smart to achieve to their full potential.

[Cartertonian]

BTW, you cannot teach intelligence. At best you can help those that are smart to achieve to their full potential.

Good job I wasn't suggesting that you can, then...

At best, you can help those that are smart to appreciate the benefits that derive from critical analysis.

Which is of course why both the economic and political powers that be are uncomfortable with so doing. Smart and educated people who question authority, who know not to accept information at face value, who demand to see all the evidence rather than only that which supports one view, etc, etc...are a threat, particularly to political leaderships at both poles of our facile, binary, partisan system who rely on propaganda, tribal loyalty and blind, unquestioning acceptance of the party line to keep them in power.

[Julian658]

Good job I wasn't suggesting that you can, then...

At best, you can help those that are smart to appreciate the benefits that derive from critical analysis.

Which is of course why both the economic and political powers that be are uncomfortable with so doing. Smart and educated people who question authority, who know not to accept information at face value, who demand to see all the evidence rather than only that which supports one view, etc, etc...are a threat, particularly to political leaderships at both poles of our facile, binary, partisan system who rely on propaganda, tribal loyalty and blind, unquestioning acceptance of the party line to keep them in power.

I agree 100% with what you have stated above. However, I will add that the left is also uncomfortable with those that promote a reasonable different point of view. They are also in love with their own orthodoxy.

Trevor Phillips an Afro-British gentleman, a man with liberal views said:
"The thing that most left wing white people hate the most is a black man that does not owe them a favor".

Trevor Phillips also said that members of the British black community should study why East Asians are academically successful and try to emulate that process. I suspect that comment was not well received.